Online Teachers - Possible or Necessary?

[Abbara]

Originally Posted by mfadaie

I will be going on a six month to one year retreat for meditation and was wondering if there was a way to get a meditation teacher? I have never been to a formal retreat, but I know that a portion of it is dedicated to speaking with a guide that can help you along your journey.

Is it something that is required or makes progress easier? Anyone have any incites they can share?

What a wonderful thing to be able to do this at your age. I'm glad you asked the question and glad you shared more. Being unfamiliar with the lingo, I had to go look up jhana... and more and more.

Having escaped from a fundamentalist religious brain-lock, I wasn't about to study and discover new sets of rules for my spiritual path. With focus on inner-healing, I did intense meditation using breath for several years. Now I'm curious about where the heck I got to in those fantastic life-changing experiences I had. I'm thinking I'd like to take such a journey as you are heading into.

Blessings on your path!

[Abbara]

Originally Posted by Uma

Well I am biased, but I think my meditation teacher gives the best retreats! Also many parts of his workshops are online.
See my links below my signature for more info.

Uma, I have read several of the linked items you mention. Your comments are very helpful to me and I think I need to continue investigating your teacher. I have had much meditative experience in the past, but with no formal understanding or knowledge of that new (to me) dimension of being. It's a bit like going to a foreign country without speaking the language. One can still have an interesting journey, but may miss the main attractions on the next block.

What I did gain though, was insight and information that assisted me in living through some difficult relationships and emerging peaceful, proving for me what SELF posted:

IMO, you can't go wrong. All experiences are an invitation to go within and peel away the onion layers. Progress towards something that is already there is simply seeing and releasing what's covering it up.

Mucho Blessings!

[mfadaie]

Originally Posted by Black Sheep

What are the differences between the after image(outline) created when staring at an object for a duration of time and then closing your eyes?
With eyes open(or closed or partly closed), I find the nimatta will arise and overlay the afterimage/outline, the same happens when observing breath(or any physical object), one shifts from the physical focal point to the soft hazy image(not afterimage), then another brighter, luminous point will stabilize and shift to that point.

When I meditate - I tend to ignore my vision - forget about it and just focus on the breath. Sometimes I am unclear whether one action will take me deeper into meditation or another will move me away. Should I be moving to these nimatta once they occur or let them simply pass - ignoring them. When I try to focus on them they will only stick around for 1 to 2 seconds and will start to shift out of perspective or move up or down and then just disappear.

Originally Posted by Black Sheep

Versus the after image that arises natural within the mind - fractal geometry and almost seemingly random objects that will suddenly materialize when you have your eyes closed? Are you referring to the images that arise in deeper jhana states where there are luminous, bright, textural images? Or the dream-like objects that may arise when in a light state? Personal immersion will really help you discern, especially if your mind is bright and clear, there is alot of differences, in texture, clarity, etc. There is a congruencey that arises, architypical images if you will so that it's easier to establish a path, know where others are and where you are in these states.

Most of my images arise during Access Concentration when my attention is drawn to my vision. My vision at this point will go through a few stages. 1) I experience a point, not really a shape, that is brighter than the rest of my vision
2) I focus on that brighter point 3) My focus is then drawn into it 4) As I am drawn in - the space will usually get a little larger, and then I will focus on what is ever inside and at that point an object will usually materialize 5) It is very clear for a brief 1 to 1.5 seconds 6) It will disappear as I try to keep it in my perspective.

Originally Posted by Black Sheep

may arise when in a light state?

Before experiencing the first Jhana my vision will noticeably brighten - white in the center and black around edges... is this the samething you are referring too when saying - light state?


Since, I cannot keep these objects in my window of vision for more than a second or two. I have been confused what I should do with them? I am unsure if ignoring them might cause me not to drop further into meditation, but if I pay attention to them they will disappear in a second or two.

What roles do these images play in meditation?


Thank you for the response thus far - both very interesting and helpful.

[Divine Consciousness]

Your Questions and my answer.
1) How does meditation outside effect the Jhana and Access Concentration? Is Jhana possible in the hot sun or wind? If you do achieve it - is it technically a harder Jhana because I would presume difficulty is impacted?

Answer: Its Dhyana (Not jhana). Yes it bring you utmost balance of mind and absorbing everything. It increase your attaining power and takes you to the higher level of consciousness. Regular meditating you become cool person.

You can meditate in any circumstances, may it be sun shining hard or under shadow or in wind. Best suggestion is you can do sitting meditation under tree while breeze pass through you. You can do walking meditation in big gerden too. you can do meditating in sitting on bench or chair in Gazebo too.

2) Walking Meditation and Jhana. Can you enter the first Jhana while doing walking meditation? How about with eyes open? How about with eyes closed? How about with eyes partly closed?

Answer: Yes you can. But doing walking meditation you should have 20 continuous days doing meditation (basic) in sitting posture 50 minutes least, so that after that when you start walking meditation, you can do te same meditation technique what you do in sitting position. Walking meditation you can do every way, open eye, partly closed eye etc.

3) What are the differences between the after image(outline) created when staring at an object for a duration of time and then closing your eyes? Versus the after image that arises natural within the mind - fractal geometry and almost seemingly random objects that will suddenly materialize when you have your eyes closed? These objects seem to instantly drop you into access concentration... or are a result of Jhana and access concentration - not sure yet...

Answer: If you are meditating in focal technique, you have to concentrate on any image say jesus, Ram, dot or oum sign or any image, you have to attain focal gaze and entire attention and concentration on it. in every meditation you have to strictly ignore the natural rising focal animation or vortex or picture, except while doing Zazen meditation. in Zazen you have to absorb everything and ignore those things coz zazen is not focal base. in zazen let pass the animation as it rise your attention on technique shall not be disturbed.

4) The first jhana - has anyone experienced these variations of it? Sometimes I will experience total bliss, another time I have experienced no body sensation, but did drop in the first jhana, another time I swear I dropped into Jhana, but experienced pain, another time I experienced a very dull sensation - almost like a bliss sensation that was incomplete.

Answer: First Dhyana, Dhyana ignores these bodily or mentally sensations, you have to let pass it without giving attention to them. you have to ignore these sensation. in Zazen you have to absorb all these and attaining meditationis the aim not to attain these emotions and sensations after few days of regular meditation you will get absorbed or ignored it. coz meditation always is bliss.

One more point. if you are not doing focal base technique, then you have to ignore every animation or image or vortex arise in front of your eyes you have to attain breathe only.

one more point, meditator rise on basics of meditation in sitting posture in every technique 50 minutes least daily and rest time if you find time, you put your dhyana on walking meditation or sitting meditation too.

Hope your queries solved in this post you are welcome to put more question.

Honorable Black Sheep has nice answers. I grew upon reading them.

[Divine Consciousness]

There are many methods. On which method you are meditating while in sitting posture if you summarise your technique it will give you accurate answer from us coz its all depend on technique which you are doing in basic meditation.

[Black Sheep]

When I meditate - I tend to ignore my vision - forget about it and just focus on the breath. Sometimes I am unclear whether one action will take me deeper into meditation or another will move me away.

Personally speaking, it's not so much if one action will take you away from a deeper meditation than another physical action....it's an internal loci, just stick with one and you can ride it in, but if you hop off the ride before you get there, or constantly switch cars or paths(back-peddle, turnaround, etc.), then it may take longer(or alot longer). They all eventually lead to the same unification experience, so it's more about picking a tool that works for you and use it(everyday, consistently, for a minimum of 30min., one hour(or more) is ideal, for six months before judging if it's effective or not, since often in the beginning, the changes a subtle, or are apparent upon reflection.)

With focusing on breath, ignoring one's vision is normal part of progression. A refocusing if you will, of your mind(as well as senses) onto a single point(breath). IMHE, One's vision(and/or other physical senses) naturally will also re-orientate onto the breath with single-point concentration. The more of your senses focused the stronger the experience(hard state vs. soft/light state).

Should I be moving to these nimatta once they occur or let them simply pass - ignoring them. When I try to focus on them they will only stick around for 1 to 2 seconds and will start to shift out of perspective or move up or down and then just disappear.

That's normal. I would ignore them till you are stabilized enough that when you switch over they won't dissipate. If you practice consistently, it may get to the point where as soon as you close your eyes, you are instantly where you left off, and can ride deeper from there. (I've heard it described as riding on the fumes of practice).

Most of my images arise during Access Concentration when my attention is drawn to my vision. My vision at this point will go through a few stages. 1) I experience a point, not really a shape, that is brighter than the rest of my vision
2) I focus on that brighter point 3) My focus is then drawn into it 4) As I am drawn in - the space will usually get a little larger, and then I will focus on what is ever inside and at that point an object will usually materialize 5) It is very clear for a brief 1 to 1.5 seconds 6) It will disappear as I try to keep it in my perspective.

That's good. In regards to the point, is it a soft, hazy point or a sharp, bright, pixel-like point? Irregardless, the hazy point/iamge, often leads to a sharper point/image. Does the space feel 3d-ish, expansive, have depth too it? Perhaps something you could almost step into? Or is there more of a sense of spaciousness but still mildly abstract? You sound like you're going well, it's just that last stabilization that seems like the next hurdle.

Before experiencing the first Jhana my vision will noticeably brighten - white in the center and black around edges... is this the samething you are referring too when saying - light state?

Technically no, though luminosity can occur in light states(just personally speaking). I refer to a light state more in a sense of softness, then actual lights, so as when meditating either standing, sitting, walking; eyes open, closed, both; and only one to three physical senses are fully-oriented inwards. These are just personal delineations, so highly subjective.

So, for say a breath focus, light state, visual/hearing, touch, and attention/mind/awareness are reoriented solely, it may give a mild to complete loss of physical sensations(sitting on a mat, sensation of breathing in/out, the body) as the sense object, the breath instead becomes the sense object, it may feel soft, cloud-like, or cotten-y. The physical surrounding may look appear high contrast to fade away completely, or overlaid with a circular soft luminous glow(which may expand to encompass the visual field or just overlay with unreal clarity), etc.

I call it a Hard state or a concreteness/undeniableness/boldness to it, when most to all senses are fully-oriented inwards on the focal point, mind and body fully in, interacting, being, with the mind/sense object. With eyes open, closed, or partial, as all that physical-input stuff falls to the wayside at this point. So a bright, alert, state, with each physical sense re-oriented, anchored if you will, on the internal focal point. One may or may not be aware of physical noises, sensations, etc., and it doesn't disturb the meditation eitherway. "Mystical" experiences are more common here, but to me it's just normal meditation fluffy-stuff. Icing but not the main show or big hurrah, if that makes sense. It can be rather productive in conducting insight, investigative work though, which is rewarding(direct experience kinda thing).

Since, I cannot keep these objects in my window of vision for more than a second or two. I have been confused what I should do with them? I am unsure if ignoring them might cause me not to drop further into meditation, but if I pay attention to them they will disappear in a second or two.

That's normal. If you continue to stabilize on your breath just a tad longer, and then switch over, if it's holds, then your good. If it dissipates, rinse, repeat(this can occur many times, over and over). Eventually, it will get to where you can dive in, right away.

The good thing is though is that with this repetition, you are developing new neural pathways, so even if you don't feel immediately that you are making progress, you are. Just keeping at it. :) If you are interested in the stuff, there are several studies based on how meditation changes the brain.

What roles do these images play in meditation?

Bio-feedback(Personally). Or put another way, exit signs(or milemarkers) on a freeway.
Some images can and do play larger roles, or can give additional information on your internal states, even insight, but there tends to be a bit of controversy around it so I prefer just to leave it up to the person to discover it or not.(You're going to get there either way kinda thing, as long as you stay equanimous or don't cling(if you are prone to that).

@Divine Consciousness, That was really cool info on Zazen! I don't know much on Zazen, so it was very nice to read up on it. :)

[mfadaie]

Shout out to Black Sheep... also much thanks Divine... some of these terms I will have to look up for reference to get a better understanding.

A lot of those responses make sense.

I'm gonna throw some more questions your way and whenever you have time feel free to chime in. Your guys help has been much appreciated.

0) I am curious do you believe that your brain's default network - natural emotional state has improved? How has it if so - genuinely happier?

0b) How long does it take for you to enter the first Jhana and then subsequent Jhana after that... all the way to fourth or higher.

1) Those images seem to lean towards personal preference... have you ever had addition of colors in your vision close to Access Concentration... Blue, Green, Red? Guessing same methodology applies here.

2) Does your breath have a natural frequency of sorts? When I begin my meditation and progress about 4 minutes into it. I can tell that making my breath in sync with "feeling" or "some sort of equal and opposite pressure" gets me deeper into meditation. Real or Fake?

3) When I get deeper into meditation... my head has a tendency to "fall" or better yet get "drawn" downward... It makes me feel closer to Jhana or kind of like the feeling or falling when you enter. I have to stop myself as I know this does not improve my meditation.

4) It the falling state or feeling as you enter the first Jhana just the relaxation of all your muscles? I am guessing "falling" is only used by students that do not fully understand the experience.

5) Do you ever experience headaches when meditating? Is that because I am tightening muscles to concentrate? There could also be tightening of muscles in my temple, nose, etc. What do you do when this occurs? Ignore them?

6) Sometimes I feel like I can speed up Access Concentration by applying "pressure" or tension to certain parts of my brain. Real or fake?

[Black Sheep]

0) I am curious do you believe that your brain's default network - natural emotional state has improved? How has it if so - genuinely happier?Personally, I noticed that not only the baseline improved but there were pervasive ripple-effects if you will. So for me, it ended up curing deep-seated C-PSTD, phobias, anxieties, depression, memory-loss and facial recognition(due to some brain trauma), etc. I had tried therapy for more than 10 years, I never got more than past coping techniques or medication, but within the first 6mths., I noticed many changes, by one year it was dramatic(undeniable and profound changes). So yeah, but I kinda shifted my perspective that happiness is a part of life, and removing the obstacles that blocked that expression just allowed it to naturally flow.

0b) How long does it take for you to enter the first Jhana and then subsequent Jhana after that... all the way to fourth or higher.
Personally I like to dedicate an hour minimum to go in deep, there is a certain loss of time, and find it easier to relax if I don't have to worry about keeping one foot out and listening for timers/alarms, signals of time passing, etc. If I can't seem to relax(restlessness), then usually it's just a feel-good type of event, energizing, though I don't feel like I gained much in insights, nor deep revelations. I'm not a pro though.

The first half hour I settle in(or mess around), usually a nimatta will form within seconds or minutes, and I go from there. If not it make take a few minutes or I may use a standby focal object, if I'm experimenting. Usually it's not too hard to get to the fourth-sixth Jhana, I'm still working on navigating the seventh and eighth efficiently to be frank.

Then to go from fourth to higher it's more of a matter of re-identification or letting go, so seconds if you will, or you can take it slow and experiment around, it's more of a matter of preference or what's holding me back for seventh and eighth. I have my groove, or settled into my routine, I know how to get to where I need to go, where my problems are, how to counter-act them or what to work on to go further. If I only have a short time(30min or less) to meditate, I don't often get past a light/soft fourth.

1) Those images seem to lean towards personal preference... have you ever had addition of colors in your vision close to Access Concentration... Blue, Green, Red? Guessing same methodology applies here.Yes.

2) Does your breath have a natural frequency of sorts? When I begin my meditation and progress about 4 minutes into it. I can tell that making my breath in sync with "feeling" or "some sort of equal and opposite pressure" gets me deeper into meditation. Real or Fake?
Makes sense. Does it feel real or fake to you? I can't seem to locate the thread, but in one of the links I sent you there is a "fire kasina" meditation discussion where very adept mediators on breath specifically discuss what you are describing. I've only had a passing interest in breath, most just messed around with it lightly and tossed it aside when curiosity was satiated. So I can't say that I've experienced such specifically(breath), though what you write makes alot of sense in comparison with other focal objects I've used are similar.

3) When I get deeper into meditation... my head has a tendency to "fall" or better yet get "drawn" downward... It makes me feel closer to Jhana or kind of like the feeling or falling when you enter. I have to stop myself as I know this does not improve my meditation.If slumping bothers you, or is painful, and you prefer to sit, do you know how to "stack your bones"?

There is a certain deep body relaxation that occurs with good alignment, that can help deepen the sitting meditation. If you imagine a plum line going from the base of your spine up through your head, you may notice a physical difference of ease, or deep comfort when you stack them. Plus it's so nicely balanced that there isn't swaying, nodding, or much slumping at all, my head may tuck a little though, but it's a very balanced position. The falling feeling when you enter(or other body distortions) still can occur but your body won't budge.

4) It the falling state or feeling as you enter the first Jhana just the relaxation of all your muscles? I am guessing "falling" is only used by students that do not fully understand the experience. I can think of two forms of the falling state/feeling, one mild I just place under body distortions, deep muscle relaxation, or picking up on the energy as it courses around your body(they are distinct though)... the other is more due to a movement of consciousness/awareness separate from the body, so pulling in can feel like a fall though subtle, it's very similar to the sensations of entering the body if you are in a rush after an OBE. The sensation varies with application mental movement. So the mental body as apart from the physical body, moving mentally quickly can cause these sensations from mild to severe. So personally, the falling I feel is when I'm locating my groove for a specific insight work I want to do, and mentally slide in and click to progress further in practice.
Does it feel very physical to you? Or does it feel more like a mental movement? Or perhaps emotional? I could also seeing it as a physical response to an emotional event(like ahhh! deep relaxation).


5) Do you ever experience headaches when meditating? Is that because I am tightening muscles to concentrate? There could also be tightening of muscles in my temple, nose, etc. What do you do when this occurs? Ignore them?
Usually not till after meditating, if I'm too tight during it or didn't mind it/relax fully.

When you meditate, do you frequently notice your muscles feeling constricted? I purposefully deepen the muscle relaxation as it I find it takes less concentration power to go in deeper(more of a slide then a push). It's like a see-saw, of relaxation and focus, if I notice a headache during meditation, I mentally scan my body(generally head) and notice my face is scrunched >.< I relax the muscle, then go back in, eventually a tipping point is reached where it creates a pleasure-loop, and it feels like very smooth entrance(it gets easy to just sit there).

If it's not till afterwards(coming out of the deeper states, then being aware of my body aches/tightness), then as I'm going about the day, I focus on imagining conduits opening up, energy flowing inside my head down my spine, or mentally pull in(or just move it around if there is too much pooling in an area). By mentally pull in, it's just some tricks I learned from OBEs, though that might not help if you don't believe in OBEs or have that type of experience, but Advil should help, except for migraines, I'll drink a coffee and shift focus(with the constriction mentally around the pain, it tends to increase for me, but if I mentally relax, the pain diminishes-dissipates and it's a sensation(painless) just as any other).

6) Sometimes I feel like I can speed up Access Concentration by applying "pressure" or tension to certain parts of my brain. Real or fake?
It's not uncommon for techniques of touch, or "pressure" to increase a mental connection to an aspect. Akin to how in some therapies they have people meditate with the hand touching their hearts/chest to better connect to their emotions. With deepening concentration, there may arise many is this real or fake sensations, but eventually it gets easier to discern and understand. So what constitutes real, and what about fake? Is it something that causes an obstacle in the meditation? What would happen if you applied Schrödinger's cat to it?

[row37]

Simply sit in a comfortable position, breathe naturally, but from the bottom of the lungs first. Most of us shallow breathe from the top down. Focus your attention, gently, on your breath. Have your eyes half open, and head tiled down a little. When your thoughts come up, and they will (in the millions), simply bring your attention back to your breath. Don't get caught up in them, and don't try to stop them. If you notice you're caught in them, return to the breath. 10 minutes is a good place to start, and gradually work up to 20. This is much harder than it sounds, and a daily practice is best.

I highly recommend reading some Zen Buddhist literature on the meditations, but the main thing is to do them. They're not about elevated states or visualizations, they are about waking us up to reality. I recommend the Zen practice as it is stripped down, non dogmatic, and non theistic. Don't bother w/ the koans, they will just be more confusing than you can imagine. This particular meditation is often called "just sitting" (although just sitting has no attention focused on anything), and is all you will ever need. It's the meditation that the Buddha did to wake up to enlightenment.

If there is a Zen, Shambhala, or even a Mindfulness (Buddhism Lite) center nearby, get on over there. Even after 20 years I enjoy meditation instruction. You cannot do it wrong, there is no such thing as wrong meditation, BUT it's important to get started on the right foot.

[mfadaie]

*Note: I do want to give everyone fair warning that I bring up sensual desires and personal stimulation in the paragraphs below*


I am hoping to get feedback from those that have been posting on this thread currently. I was hoping to get a review of how I view the events that occur during meditation. Let me know if the conclusions that I am deriving are accurate or need some adjustments.

During, most of my everyday life I feel a tiny vibration when I close my eyes and focus in on my body. I am never been able to explain this. As I began meditating, I noticed that these vibrations got stronger(more noticeable) as you got closer to the first Jhana. At this point, I had only reached the first Jhana by luck a few times. As I am starting to refine the process I am starting to come to the conclusion that the First Jhana has nothing to do with a dopamine release or body sensations, but just the mind perceiving these intensifying natural vibrations as pleasurable sensation that occur on the body. But the body itself is not actually experiencing anything.

I have spent sometime finding the link between masturbation and the reasoning behind not doing it. I know that it is a sensual pleasure, craving, and the perception of association. But naturally, I was curious because most of my life I have never felt anything at the point of climax and was wondering if meditation could make me become more in tune with the experience. I think on one point it does as body sensations do become more noticed, but I also noticed that as I got better at meditating - the feeling that comes from concentration quickly overshadowed any sensation that occurs for me during climax when I did both at the same time.

So this just reaffirmed the idea above. On one note, I want to say that the only thing I ever felt during masturbation was the increase in concentration that comes from the rise to climax that puts me more in tune with these natural vibrations. But I also feel like these were two different pleasures and each can be distinguished from one another. Is this distinguishing of the pleasures because only one of them satisfies a craving, so I have greater attachment to it? It is only my thoughts and the craving that distinguishes them? This would then infer that their are no natural pleasures and all pleasures stem from vibrations leading into the first Jhana?

So is that the same for everyone? Are their actual natural pleasures? Am I unique in that I rarely feel natural pleasures? Maybe I am partial right and partial wrong. If anyone can feel in the missing gaps it would be much appreciated.