Perception

[Element 5]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

We all grow from our interactions with people. Different kinds of relationships need different roles. You only learn the roles by learning people. No one learns about people if they’re absorbed only in themselves like as if they’re expecting everything to rotate around them. Well, that’s encouraged as one of the consumerist marketing ploys: think only of yourself - but useless when it comes to the mating game.

Whether it's just the way I see it, I don't know: people seem to make such heavy weather of relationships. Friends are okay because they’re easier to break from if need be but when commitment is signalled people have to realise they’re sharing themselves with another more intimately. Sharing. Themselves.

It seems most relationships work up to that point. If it’s the mating game the early days are about people behaving themselves; they enthuse about the other’s likes and views (sometimes to their detriment as dishonesty only leads to dismay). If only people were honest and realistic at the outset and stopped expecting the other to fit their template - you evolve that together.

Point is, I suppose, be interested in people, expect nothing beyond the rules evolved as the thing develops. And recognise that when, if, it's over, it's over.



♥♥♥♥♥

The hardest part of all of this: Not knowing if it's over, or if I even really want it to be. I get advice all the time that eventually I will get my belly full and I will be done. I often wonder how long that will take! I have a hard time picturing my life without him in it. I'm here discussing the problems...but there are so many good things. I suppose that's why I'm so confused.

[Element 5]

Originally Posted by PatientlyWaiting

I find that when we have set expectations, we are setting ourselves up for disappointment. So, I do see relationships as a way for us to take a better look at ourselves.

When I stepped back and observed my own actions..."I expected you to call, I expected you to respond, I thought he would say something different, I expected him to remember, I think he should/would act this way".... all of these things say "I".

That, I eventually found, is where my problem was.

When it's difficult, we have the opportunity to learn and grow...
When it's easy..... Honestly, I really have no idea. I've not gotten to that point yet.

I'm glad you mention this...and I think it's the fact that I've been aware of the need to self-reflect that I've made it this long. I remind myself that he isn't me and I'm not dating the male version of myself. He's his own person. I've been fairly successful at working through the expectations I've had of him, and it seems to hold me for months usually. Then, the disappointments start to creep back in. I get my feelings hurt often from things like him not getting me an anniversary present and I've gotten him one, or feeling like I'm about 3rd or 4th on his priority list. I seem to be spending more time talking myself out of expecting things from him than actually being happy with the things he does or doesn't do. These are some of the reasons that make me wonder if we are really just not compatible.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Element 5

Are relationships meant to teach us how to better ourselves...to reflect on our own imperfections and that's why they are difficult OR are we meant to hold out for something that flows more easily?

Relationships are only "difficult" because very few of us were ever taught, at home, how to make a relationship work. The way to make it flow easily is to learn how to make it work which might require the partners to read a few relationship books or simply google: relationship tips.

I've come to believe that we are meant to grow from adversity and that the saying 'anything worth doing does not come easily.'

Anything worth doing might require us to LEARN HOW to do it!

BUT, if we spend a lot of time in a relationship wishing that the other person would react differently, say more, share more, and most importantly communicate better...

You can "wish" until your are blue in the face but none of that will happen UNTIL the partners learn how to make it happen by reading a few relationship books or going to a counselor to learn a few, simple things.

is the relationship serving our needs and desires enough to stay in it despite constant disappointments?

It's only disappointing for those who were never taught how to make it work or can't be bothered to LEARN HOW.

Is what we perceive as being difficult just a sign that we need to ask ourselves what we might be doing/thinking wrong?

Yes, and what most of us are "doing wrong" is mindlessly bumbling along with NO IDEA how to make things work in the relationship but ASSUMING that we know all there is to know and that our partner is WRONG!

Or do we just chalk it up to it not being what's right for us and it's time to move on? (All this in the face of loving this person and not wanting to give up on them.)

Sure, you can turn and walk away and then do the same dumb things in the next relationship or get a little courage and both of you study a few relationship books or just google: relationship tips and get busy doing what they teach.
Our most important lesson was to be 100% honest and truthful from the very beginning and ALL OF THE TIME which paved the way for deep trust, respect and dignity. When there is 100% honesty and NO little white lies, secrets, scams, two-face, tricks, gimmicks, backstabbing, CHEATING, etc. the rest of the journey is a joyful piece of cake.
The next most powerful technique was to swear to be each others best and most loyal & RESPECTFUL FRIEND - ALL OF THE TIME - not just when it's convenient! I wonder how many folks consider their co-worker of bowling partner a "best friend" BUT NOT their own spouse?
And then there's stuff like: common courtesy, frequent affection, NO CRITICISM OR TEASING, politeness, empathy, PATIENCE, kindness, helpfulness, and other friendly actions on a regular and FREQUENT level and not just when you feel like it or are in a good mood.
Most partners start out that way and then slowly or quickly let all of that go to become: indifferent, careless, lazy, bored or even HOSTILE as the relationship gradually DIES.
LEARN HOW TO MAKE IT WORK.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Element 5

So, what about things like affection.

Relationship books and online info can teach both of you how to give and get affection but it will take both of you wanting to LEARN HOW. You might have to take the lead and go get some books from the library or google: relationship tips and then MAKE him study that stuff. If he isn't interested, it might be time to walk away and go find a partner who will be interested.

We are all different when it comes to the amount of affection we want to give and receive. I am a very affectionate person, he is not.

Then he needs to learn how to be or you are stuck. I personally would not tolerate that now that I know how easy it is to learn how to be affectionate.

Early on I realized that if I wanted to be close to him physically, I had to be the one to initiate. He never turned it away, but doesn't really initiate himself very often.

It can be learned IF he wants to. There probably was little or no affection in his childhood so he doesn't know how to do it BUT he can learn if he tries.

One thing he does that really gets me is that he isn't a spooner, but he wants ME to spoon HIM. If this went both ways it would be perfectly fine to me. So, what I'm realizing is that he wants the affection...he just doesn't necessarily want to be the one giving it. I feel sometimes like a mother with her child because of this.

This is all about education or learning how to be affectionate, spoon and take the initiative so, go find some relationship books, of on line or see a counselor and get him started learning how to make your relationship work better - or go find a better partner!

This is an example of what my OP is about. If my expectation is that he's affectionate with me and we both give AND receive...but I'm doing 90% of the giving, is this just a matter of incompatibility, or should I be more accepting of him in this way.

It's a matter of education and training. He may not have grown up with affectionate parents so he either doesn't know how to be that way or it might be some genetic thing. Either way, he an LEARN HOW if he wants to. You can either accept him as he is and go on in misery, show him how to learn how or LEAVE.

Now, I'll be honest, this isn't the only 'lack of attention' issue I have going on. Overall, I feel like I'm doing most of the work. So, I can accept him for who he is, but I may still feel like I'm missing out on things that I really want for myself.

When you see how good relationship skills can be learned and applied, IF SOMEONE WANTS TO, then your options might be obvious to both of you. He either comes around and helps make the relationship work better - OR ELSE!
What you want and expect is really normal, standard, ordinary and DESIRABLE relationship stuff that anyone can learn to do IF THEY WANT TO!
Good luck getting what you want and deserve in this or another relationship.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Element 5

One of the things that has been difficult is the changes that have happened since after the first several months of dating. In the beginning, he was very attentive. More open with thoughts on the future and what he was feeling and wanting. He has actually shut down more over time and it often feels like we're going backwards, both emotionally and physically.

It is very common for some folks to KNOW how to be loving and what to do at the beginning of a relationship and then, as soon as they are comfortable, they start letting go and slowly fall back into patterns of carelessness, indifference, laziness, boredom, fear and even hostility BECAUSE they do not know how to make the relationship work and keep getting better instead of slowly dying.

So, many of my expectations are based on the way he was...what he presented as being...in the beginning. I know he's not going to be on his best behavior for long. People get comfortable with each other. BUT, he seems to be less trusting and more guarded as time has gone by. He went from saying he wanted to marry me one day to saying he didn't want to get married again. You can imagine how that would make me feel, knowing that he decided this WHILE we were together.

That seems like some kind of fear to me. I'd suggest seeing a counselor to find out what is eating him if he won't open up to you.

So, not only do I (who happens to be a very independent and strong person without the need of a relationship to make me feel whole) NOT get much in the way of attention or validation, but I more or less am told that there are restrictions to our relationship mostly stemming from his past relationships and now being embittered toward marriage. So, there's definitely a wall there. It may come down to the type of people we each are. I want a relationship where I can say what I'm feeling and not be met with fear or defensiveness. I want the person I'm with to show effort with more than just words, but with sacrifice as well. And I'm not asking anything that I'm not trying to give to him. He just seems to be happy receiving it without the reciprocation.

I'd recommend seeing a counselor because I don't see studying relationship books etc. as working all that well for what is bothering him.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Element 5

I'm glad you mention this...and I think it's the fact that I've been aware of the need to self-reflect that I've made it this long. I remind myself that he isn't me and I'm not dating the male version of myself. He's his own person. I've been fairly successful at working through the expectations I've had of him, and it seems to hold me for months usually. Then, the disappointments start to creep back in. I get my feelings hurt often from things like him not getting me an anniversary present and I've gotten him one, or feeling like I'm about 3rd or 4th on his priority list. I seem to be spending more time talking myself out of expecting things from him than actually being happy with the things he does or doesn't do. These are some of the reasons that make me wonder if we are really just not compatible.

I left my 1st wife because things just got more bad than good and, since I was studying relationship skills to improve things but she was not at all interested in such silly stuff - I finally left her!
Relationship skills could save what you have and even improve them BUT you would both have to learn how and then actually do it. But if he is not willing to participate with you, WHY STAY THERE???????
I sure as hell wouldn't stay now that I know it's INEXCUSABLE.

[Element 5]

Thank you JIMRICH for all the great advice. I think I have to be more up front and honest with him about how I'm feeling and then if he doesn't seem interested in acknowledging the way I feel and working with me on it, I may need to move on. I truly think our biggest problem is the lack of communication between us. I started out being very open and quickly shut down after a few episodes of 'getting my hand slapped'. Now I'm guarded and tip-toe around him rather than tell him what I'm feeling for fear of defensiveness and being labeled too emotional or too much of a girl for having feelings.

[Kathrin]

There is nothing to be accomplished. We are here for the exploration of life. As players and discoverers of things and stuff. As adventures in the game of life. Nothing is serious. It is all about fun, exploration, making it new, living, playing, doing things, making things, exploring for the sense of being. There is no task to be completed or goal to be reached. Unless you really really want something. It's up to you to determine what you want. What you want next also. It never ends. If something is not fun or feels wonderful, why keep it? Why self torture? To please yourself? To please whom? To win? For what? To not fail? Why not fail? What to proof? If you can take a moment to investigate your true intentions you may find how you hold responsible, someone for something. What do you really want from it all? More joy? More seriousness? More responsibility? All? Love? Love can not be found outside of you. Love is an inside job.

[Floatsy]

Originally Posted by Kathrin

There is nothing to be accomplished. We are here for the exploration of life. As players and discoverers of things and stuff. As adventures in the game of life. Nothing is serious. It is all about fun, exploration, making it new, living, playing, doing things, making things, exploring for the sense of being. There is no task to be completed or goal to be reached. Unless you really really want something. It's up to you to determine what you want. What you want next also. It never ends. If something is not fun or feels wonderful, why keep it? Why self torture? To please yourself? To please whom? To win? For what? To not fail? Why not fail? What to proof? If you can take a moment to investigate your true intentions you may find how you hold responsible, someone for something. What do you really want from it all? More joy? More seriousness? More responsibility? All? Love? Love can not be found outside of you. Love is an inside job.

Would you talk a bit more about "true intentions" - and this process of discovery of "true intention". And, is intention, not also moulded? And perhaps there is a relationship here to how clear intent is, can it be subconsciously clear or must it be brought up for investigation for example?

[Kathrin]

Originally Posted by Floatsy

Would you talk a bit more about "true intentions" - and this process of discovery of "true intention". And, is intention, not also moulded? And perhaps there is a relationship here to how clear intent is, can it be subconsciously clear or must it be brought up for investigation for example?

I'm happy to :) Thx! Let's see. True intention = What is deeply desired. It is vague. Until it is felt. When felt it reveals its nature, its essence. It can be called by its name. Every notion has a name. That name is a mysterium and a revelation. Once revealed, the caller can chose. Whatever notion may be unseen because uncalled, still is. Truth reveals itself to the caller. The caller though receives his/her voice through feeling.

All is there, nothing becomes visible or clear until it is willingly felt.

All we have as orientation is our emotions. They are direct feedback on our mental activities. Very difficult to re-learn, feeling I mean, but the foundation of fulfillment. No Emotion, no Love.