Killing insects

[alamode]

Originally Posted by Ecthalion

Not true.

B12 is not man-made. It is manufactured solely by bacteria. Whether this process occurs in the gut of an animal or in a laboratory it is still the same process.

I was saying that "fortified foods" are man-made and that means they do not occur in nature. I never said anything about "how" humans make B12. But yes, B12 is a unique vitamin in that in nature its made by bacteria in animals, so humans figured it out in 1920 how to make B12 with bacteria (so technically when humans make it, its man-made), so that means prior to 1920 what were humans supposed to do in order to get their B12? Eat animals.

Such ideas are irresponsible and promote cruelty.
A psychopath might use the same theory to rationalise the slaughters of his victims.
"They wanted to be killed all along."

The psychopath is a human. Human is not a "prey" species. A human will never incarnate with the intention of "I'm going to incarnate into a human body so someone can kill me". Animals are prey species. They incarnate into animal bodies with the intention of "I'm going to incarnate into an animal body so that I can become food and give someone life". Therefore, your comparison of a psychopath (non-prey species) to animals (prey species) is null, irrational and invalid.

The point I was making in the first part is that to say there are no plant sources of B-12 is wrong.

Which plant sources have B12? We've already discussed mushrooms which display unpredictable, varying trace amounts of B12 caused by bacterial contamination. Are there actually any reliable plant sources?

What if angels hunted and killed humans, how would we view them?
We'd view them as monsters... And we'd be right.

If they hunted us to eat us, then that is natural and intended by the Creator's own design. No, the angels would not be monsters, since that is how the Creator made them and designed his creations to be. Birds aren't "monsters" when they eat worms. Its natural for life to feed off of other life. Mosquitoes feed off of human blood. Not all prey becomes food and prey can fight back and kill the predator. Survival of the fittest. That is natural and the Creator's design in order to ensure the strongest survive, reproduce and replenish themselves as food supply for others.

Originally Posted by alamode

I was saying that "fortified foods" are man-made and that means they do not occur in nature. I never said anything about "how" humans make B12. But yes, B12 is a unique vitamin in that in nature its made by bacteria in animals, so humans figured it out in 1920 how to make B12 with bacteria (so technically when humans make it, its man-made), so that means prior to 1920 what were humans supposed to do in order to get their B12? Eat animals.

Thankfully we have advanced since 1920 and now we can be more compassionate.

Originally Posted by alamode

The psychopath is a human. Human is not a "prey" species. A human will never incarnate with the intention of "I'm going to incarnate into a human body so someone can kill me". Animals are prey species. They incarnate into animal bodies with the intention of "I'm going to incarnate into an animal body so that I can become food and give someone life". Therefore, your comparison of a psychopath (non-prey species) to animals (prey species) is null, irrational and invalid.

But humans are a prey species. We will be killed and eaten by sharks, tigers and lions (to name but a few). Our biggest predator though, by a long way, is Homo Sapiens. If your philosophy is true then it stands to reason that victims of murder agreed to this before they were incarnated. Therefore the murderer is doing no wrong.
It is your rationalisation of killing which is invalid.

Originally Posted by alamode

Which plant sources have B12? We've already discussed mushrooms which display unpredictable, varying trace amounts of B12 caused by bacterial contamination. Are there actually any reliable plant sources?

Take a look at the link Knight posted. It seems that there are more meat-eaters with B12 deficiency than vegans. Also, vegans can eat fungi and bacteria as well as plants. Like we agreed, B12 comes from bacteria.

Originally Posted by alamode

If they hunted us to eat us, then that is natural and intended by the Creator's own design. No, the angels would not be monsters, since that is how the Creator made them and designed his creations to be. Birds aren't "monsters" when they eat worms. Its natural for life to feed off of other life. Mosquitoes feed off of human blood. Not all prey becomes food and prey can fight back and kill the predator. Survival of the fittest. That is natural and the Creator's design in order to ensure the strongest survive, reproduce and replenish themselves as food supply for others.

The reason why men (and angels) who kill are monsters, but animals who kill are not is that men have intelligence and conscience. We know that it is wrong to kill yet we still do it.
You say that the creator designed us to be killers. He also designed us with capacity for love and compassion, and he gave us the intelligence to find ways to feed ourselves which do not require us to kill.

[alamode]

Originally Posted by Ecthalion

Thankfully we have advanced since 1920 and now we can be more compassionate.

Its not "advancement" when the primitive, traditional societies have been getting their B12 for generation after generation for thousands of years with no B12 deficiencies whatsoever. The access to this man-made B12 exists for now....only because someone realized they can sell it and make money from it. However, as soon as this product threatens the profits of the large corporations, then this product can suddenly be lost and/or banned. Then the only solution would be to eat animals. Eating animals does not make one less compassionate. Giving humans proper nutrition is being compassionate.

But humans are a prey species. We will be killed and eaten by sharks, tigers and lions (to name but a few). Our biggest predator though, by a long way, is Homo Sapiens. If your philosophy is true then it stands to reason that victims of murder agreed to this before they were incarnated. Therefore the murderer is doing no wrong.
It is your rationalisation of killing which is invalid.

Yes, humans can be eaten by animals occasionally in rare instances where the humans end up as "prey" if the human does not defend itself. Just because there are a few rare cases where this actually happens, it does not make the entire human species inherently a "prey" species as a whole. The reason why this is so rare and not the norm is because the Creator designed humans to be able to defend themselves and fight back. When Homo Sapiens kill Homo Sapiens, are they normally eating them too? No, because humans were designed to and evolved from eating animals and plants....not from eating other humans. We're talking about killing to eat. We're not talking about murdering and then not eating what is murdered. Therefore, no human murder victim ever agreed to become another human's food, before incarnating, since humans eat animals and plants...not other humans. The human murderer did not incarnate with the intention of "I'm going to kill humans and eat them" and the murder victims also did not incarnate with the intention of "I'm going to be murdered and become another human's food". Animals actually do incarnate with the intention of killing other animals for food, and they incarnate with the intention of becoming food for animals and humans.

Take a look at the link Knight posted. It seems that there are more meat-eaters with B12 deficiency than vegans. Also, vegans can eat fungi and bacteria as well as plants. Like we agreed, B12 comes from bacteria.

The money/profit system is destroying the modern food supply and making it unhealthy in order to maximize profits. Cheap, toxic, denatured food = more profits. That is the reason for the widespread B12 deficiencies. Primitive, traditional civilizations eating their natural diets of animals, do not have any B12 deficiencies whatsoever.

Do a google search on "B12 analogues"...that is what is in fungi and plants. They appear similar to true B12 but are not exactly the same and because of this, they are not bioavailable. Also these B12 analogues impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to competitive absorption, so eating them as your "only source of B12" will cause deficiency.

The reason why men (and angels) who kill are monsters, but animals who kill are not is that men have intelligence and conscience. We know that it is wrong to kill yet we still do it.
You say that the creator designed us to be killers. He also designed us with capacity for love and compassion, and he gave us the intelligence to find ways to feed ourselves which do not require us to kill.

Its not “wrong” to kill animals for food if they want to be food and chose to be food. Did the animals have free will to incarnate into their animal bodies? If so, then they wanted to become food. They knew very well what they are getting into when they chose to incarnate. Eating animals does not make someone less loving and less compassionate when we're just following the course of what the animals wanted in the first place...they wanted to become food so that they can give us life. That is their life purpose and it is very fulfilling and an honor for them to be able to do that for us. Intelligence in humans gives us the capacity to realize this is what the animals want for us to do.

Originally Posted by alamode

Giving humans proper nutrition is being compassionate.

Yes it is, and doing that without having to kill animals is more compassionate still.

Originally Posted by alamode

Animals actually do incarnate with the intention of killing other animals for food, and they incarnate with the intention of becoming food for animals and humans.
Its not “wrong” to kill animals for food if they want to be food and chose to be food... they wanted to become food. They knew very well what they are getting into when they chose to incarnate... we're just following the course of what the animals wanted in the first place...they wanted to become food... That is their life purpose and it is very fulfilling and an honor for them to be able to do that for us...

Again and again you repeat this absurd notion. If you say it often enough you may manage to convince yourself, but it remains false nonetheless.
Do you have any evidence to support it? Have the animals spoken to you and said they want you to kill them? If so I would like to see recordings of it. There are plenty of recordings which show animals displaying fear, even terror, of being killed and trying to avoid it at all costs. Animals do not want to be eaten.
Saying that it is an honour for animals to be eaten by you shows an arrogance which is beyond belief.

Originally Posted by alamode

Intelligence in humans gives us the capacity to realize this is what the animals want for us to do.

No, what you refer to is not intelligence but delusion.

[knightofalbion]

'What animals want' is for us to honour our spiritual birthright and to show love, mercy and compassion, not to hurt and kill....

[alamode]

What exactly in your opinion makes killing animals for food less compassionate/loving/merciful than killing plants for food? The only reasons I've seen so far are:

1. Animal's fear of dying/ fight or flight response: this is necessary in order to reproduce in order to replenish the food supply. Otherwise they'd all get eaten by other animals and would become extinct. This would happen even if humans didn't eat animals. All animals would get eaten by other animals and become extinct if they had no fear of dying.

2. Animals feel pain when they are killed for food: humans can kill animals very quickly and with minimal pain as compared to when animals kill animals in nature for food. Plants feel pain too. Just because you can't relate to plant pain, it doesn't mean that plant pain is less significant than animal or human pain. What gives you the right or the knowledge to assume plant pain is less significant? Also, when the reward is giving someone life, the giver knows the pain is honorable and worth it in order to give the gift of life. Like going through pain and fear to give birth. I did it before with my child-- I did a home birth so i used no pain meds whatsoever in order to ensure a healthy non-toxic life for my child. If an incarnated human thinks pain and fear is worth it in order to give life, the animal soul definitely feels the same when it chooses to incarnate as a prey species where it knows its life purpose is becoming food. Do the animal souls have free will to decide to incarnate? Do animal souls choose their life purpose to become food? Yes and yes.

Are there any other reasons for why eating animals is supposedly "less compassionate/loving/merciful" than not eating any animals? Those two above reasons are the only ones I've seen. Also keep in mind that every time you eat a plant food that you didn't grow yourself, as a growing crop that was harvested, lots of little animals like birds, rabbits, gophers, etc. died in the crop field so that you can eat the plant. Eating one cow causes less death.

To compare killing animals to killing plants is another absurd suggestion.
None of what you say makes any sense, morally, scientifically or just logically.
Just because animals kill animals it doesn't mean that we have to. We know better.
I don't know the law in your part of the world, but here in England cruelty to animals is illegal. There is no such offence as cruelty to plants; they feel no pain.

Originally Posted by alamode

What exactly in your opinion makes killing animals for food less compassionate/loving/merciful than killing plants for food? The only reasons I've seen so far are:

1. Animal's fear of dying/ fight or flight response: this is necessary in order to reproduce in order to replenish the food supply. Otherwise they'd all get eaten by other animals and would become extinct. This would happen even if humans didn't eat animals. All animals would get eaten by other animals and become extinct if they had no fear of dying.

So you admit animals fear death and do not want to be eaten.

Originally Posted by alamode

2. Animals feel pain when they are killed for food: humans can kill animals very quickly and with minimal pain as compared to when animals kill animals in nature for food. Plants feel pain too. Just because you can't relate to plant pain, it doesn't mean that plant pain is less significant than animal or human pain. What gives you the right or the knowledge to assume plant pain is less significant? Also, when the reward is giving someone life, the giver knows the pain is honorable and worth it in order to give the gift of life. Like going through pain and fear to give birth. I did it before with my child-- I did a home birth so i used no pain meds whatsoever in order to ensure a healthy non-toxic life for my child. If an incarnated human thinks pain and fear is worth it in order to give life, the animal soul definitely feels the same when it chooses to incarnate as a prey species where it knows its life purpose is becoming food. Do the animal souls have free will to decide to incarnate? Do animal souls choose their life purpose to become food? Yes and yes.

Plants do not feel pain; they have no nervous system. There is no scientifically sound evidence which shows that plants feel pain.
Do animals have free will to incarnate? Nobody knows.
Do animals choose to be food? NO!

[knightofalbion]

Ah! the old 'vegetarians kill carrots therefore it's okay for me to kill cows' argument.
Firstly, if there was such a parity, a gardener uprooting a carrot would be on a par with an Al Qaeda terrorist beheading a hostage! Absurd and offensive.

Secondly, plants are alive as an extension of the Earth Soul, but they don't have individualised souls as people and animals do.

As for the 'plants feel pain' argument.
To be able to feel pain a plant would require a central nervous system which it doesn't have.
To be able to register pain a plant would require a mind which it doesn't have either.
And nothing happens in Nature and Evolution without reason and purpose. A plant can neither 'fight nor flight'

[alamode]

Originally Posted by Ecthalion

Just because animals kill animals it doesn't mean that we have to. We know better.

So you're saying that you "know better" than the animals who were designed by the Creator to eat other animals. That's not "knowing better" when the Creator designed and intended for animals to eat other animals. If he designed it that way, its a good, natural thing. Do you also "know better" than the Creator because you think he messed up and meant to design humans as vegans, but he made a mistake and designed humans to be omnivores? If the Creator did not want us to eat animals, then why did he design humans as omnivores? Its not "knowing better" when you do not follow the diet design that the Creator made and intended for humans. If the Creator designed humans to be omnivores, that means that eating plants and animals is the optimal, healthy diet and correct thing to do.

There is no such offence as cruelty to plants; they feel no pain.

You cannot relate to a plants' pain in the human sense of pain. But just because you can't relate to it, it doesn't mean that plant pain doesn't exist.

So you admit animals fear death and do not want to be eaten.

Of course. They would become extinct if they didn't fear death and let themselves all be eaten. Fear is necessary in order to reproduce and replenish themselves as the food supply for others to continue eating them.

Plants do not feel pain; they have no nervous system. There is no scientifically sound evidence which shows that plants feel pain.
Do animals have free will to incarnate? Nobody knows.
Do animals choose to be food? NO!

Child bearing women (like myself) go through fear and pain to give someone else life. We don't always choose to get pregnant. I didn't want to get pregnant. Mine was unplanned, and I proceeded to give life to my child. Is there something wrong with that pain of giving birth to life? No. Is the pain that the woman goes through to give birth wrong? No. Pain is actually loving and an honor to go through when you give someone else life. Animals go through pain to give life to others and the animal souls are loving and honored to be able give others life. So you're not sure if animals have free will to incarnate. Do you have free will to incarnate? If you do, then why don't animals? Did you choose your life path and purpose? If you did, then why don't animals get to choose? Just like how human mothers feel honored to go through fear and pain to give birth to life, animals souls feel the same to give the gift of life. Animal souls aren't selfish and mad that they gave someone life.

Firstly, if there was such a parity, a gardener uprooting a carrot would be on a par with an Al Qaeda terrorist beheading a hostage! Absurd and offensive.

Humans can eat carrots. But humans don't eat other humans... Comparison is null.

Secondly, plants are alive as an extension of the Earth Soul, but they don't have individualised souls as people and animals do.

Others say that animals don't have individualized souls but have group souls instead. No one knows for sure, just like no on knows for sure if plants have individual or group souls.

As for the 'plants feel pain' argument.
To be able to feel pain a plant would require a central nervous system which it doesn't have.
To be able to register pain a plant would require a mind which it doesn't have either.
And nothing happens in Nature and Evolution without reason and purpose. A plant can neither 'fight nor flight'

You require a CNS to feel pain. You require a mind to feel pain. You have a fight or flight response. Just because the plant is so different than you and you can't relate to it, it does not mean that the plant doesn't have its own system of pain and fight or flight responses. No one can say for sure that they "know" these things about plants. You only guess that they don't have pain and you guess that they don't have "fight or flight" responses, only because they are so different from you that you can't relate to them. There are studies that show plants are emotional, have feelings, have their own thinking system, and communicate with one another. Plants have their own immune system of releasing chemicals when they are being attacked. Plants also do not want to be eaten and they want to survive:

Plants also send signals that are the equivalent of a cry for help, often attracting predators of their predators who snatch up the attackers and eat them. This is just one of many ways in which plants communicate with the living world around them in order to survive.

Reference: http://www.naturalnews.com/028213_pl...tarianism.html