Nonsense

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Kaimi

Ok first this right here, gc formed a conclusion based on everything in this thread said by you. It was designed, not to paint you as something but rather spoke a perception of you brought about by your own words and actions specifically in this thread. A conclusion I share. And if I think it and gc thinks it then it is a fair assumption that others might as well.

If I am wrong prove it.

I can't prove anything because I made no assertion to prove.

What are you doing if not bringing 'truth' to the veiled nature of ones text. What you say ruffles feathers but not because a collapse of inner definitions. Our views each individually remain the same. And while I do find wisdom and lessons within your words, you ruffle my feathers because even now you claim to not speak truths yet assert that everyone else is bullspit. See the above two quotes. You have done it twice, once openly telling me I am wrong with no supporting statement and once here within this quoted text here.

You're wrong because I'm not ego tripping. You believe the assertion, but that's GC's thing, I'm not any part of it.

I won't play my part in it, and when I'm under conditions where I have to assume a role, I don't. I don't do anything. The bullspit can't be sustained unless I take the part an play it.

it does sound egocentric. "there is a certain appeal to this thread.... symmetrically opposed role" once more I ask, what are you doing if not bringing truth to us lesser beings? You fancy yourself what if not a guru, who are you to dismantle anything about myself or anyone other than you.

I'm not the lesser being that has been asserted by several, and I'm not the lesser being that validates you as a spiritual guide. I'm not any measure of being in any way at all. Neither are you as far as I'm concerned.

The last blurb "but for you... high regard." I need you to be clearer on what you are trying to say because that honestly went over my head.

I don't care for the images projected, you know, the guides and truth-bringers and experts and newbies. These are really insubstantial things. We're living things, and can be just as we are. It's difficult to be that because the whole society and everyone in it is forever expectant that we should be someone. In my case you can be just as you are and I have no preconceptions about that at all. You're an incredible living thing - so much more than I could imagine you to be, far exceeding anything anyone expects you to be... and not just you, but me and everyone else, too.

None other than oneself can be used to define... oneself. I have no need to compare or measure myself to you. You own it, it is your actions that paint you as less than complimentary. It is the thinking of anything but the immutable fact that people perceive you as you present yourself that causes you to be greeted with less than love. It is your rejection of the prospect of kind warm affection for nothing more than your existence that accentuates the aforementioned.

OK, because I can't be measured and defined by, and I can't measure and defie you by that same token. The images that paint me aren't held in my head. I care nothing about that.

I don't think people are as loving as they promote themselves as being, and I'm pretty sure that kind of love is reserved for as long as the going is easy. Very few would care at all if just stopped coming here, those wo would care would care very little. Many wouldn't notice and some would be glad. In terms of warm affection, that would take a while, and it's not exactly one of my a strong points to begin with.

What? Do you mean to say that I cannot define myself because you refuse to play along?

Define yourself if you must, but I won't play along or entertain the image in my head.

The simple fact that you have no bearing on my self definition is a truth, it is not you but how I interact with you that adds tone and begins to define myself as an individual. This whole statement seems inflated as if to say ' I am empty.' by this point you should have a snapshot of who I am and how I think. As blurred as it may be it is not without form.

I can't really hold an image of you. I think how it happened is I didn't accept your original impression as all loving guide, then you mentioned family and a glimmer of real life was there somewhere, and that's about all I've got. The teenyist hint of someone.

[Kaimi]

Originally Posted by Gem

I can't prove anything because I made no assertion to prove.

your assertion is simply that the perceptions that others have, and the truths they hold, and the things they say are bullcrap. your assertion is that people do not say what they mean. which conflicts with my assertion that you can not tell me what I say is false or inaccurate, or wrong the same way I can not tell you the same. just as you cannot tell me that I don't love you or that my feelings about a certain thing are untrue. you do not have to agree with it but you do have to respect it, which you seemingly lack the ability to do.

You're wrong because I'm not ego tripping. You believe the assertion, but that's GC's thing, I'm not any part of it.

I believe in the shared perception of events, which in this particular situation is simply that you are being stubborn and positioning yourself above others by invalidating or dissecting their thoughts or advise or whatever you want to call it. and even if you want to deny your role in how others perceive you doesn't mean that it is not there. the same way that you deny the role of others. its a dynamic shift is all I am trying to express. that at one moment anyone on this forum can be and is a guide or a teacher, the same as they are a student or a listener. regardless of the perception of the role imposed you fail in the ability to listen. you hear what is said sure but you refuse to think about its implications and how it pertains or does not pertain to your life. but this statement of which I have just written is a clear overstepping of my place. and even though I would like to reword it I will not and have included it as a mirror to your 16 pages of the same.

I won't play my part in it, and when I'm under conditions where I have to assume a role, I don't. I don't do anything. The bullspit can't be sustained unless I take the part an play it.

like you are now. taking part in it. at this very moment by simply playing your part in relation to me. just as you have played your part in relation to others that have posted here. just as you will continue to do so in future posts. the roles may be defined or not so clearly cut and formed. it is my opinion that you are so closed off by the emphasis you place on these roles that you do not see the underlying importance of the messages and views offered

I'm not the lesser being that has been asserted by several, and I'm not the lesser being that validates you as a spiritual guide. I'm not any measure of being in any way at all. Neither are you as far as I'm concerned.

for the record I did not refer to you as a lesser being, only implied that you hold yourself above such roles, and in turn hold an inflated sense of self worth. all I have asked of you from the beginning is to try and view things from a perspective other than your own. you are free to think and act and draw your own conclusions or truths, the same as anyone else. but not at the exclusion of outside influences. when looking at the ground you miss out on the rest of the world.

I don't care for the images projected, you know, the guides and truth-bringers and experts and newbies. These are really insubstantial things. We're living things, and can be just as we are. It's difficult to be that because the whole society and everyone in it is forever expectant that we should be someone. In my case you can be just as you are and I have no preconceptions about that at all. You're an incredible living thing - so much more than I could imagine you to be, far exceeding anything anyone expects you to be... and not just you, but me and everyone else, too.

if they are so insubstantial as you claim then why is there a 16 page thread about them. because at the core of it I have seen talking in circles when it comes to this topic and seems to be the very foundation of your need to dismantle others statements as nonsense. but I am no psychologist so I cant really shrink you at all.

OK, because I can't be measured and defined by, and I can't measure and defie you by that same token. The images that paint me aren't held in my head. I care nothing about that.

correct, however, painting you as anything is done by your own hand. what you project to the world is a reflection of inward and the way people perceive you is a reflection of what you project to the world. it is my feeling that this thread is less about my nonsense and more about your own.

I don't think people are as loving as they promote themselves as being, and I'm pretty sure that kind of love is reserved for as long as the going is easy. Very few would care at all if just stopped coming here, those wo would care would care very little. Many wouldn't notice and some would be glad. In terms of warm affection, that would take a while, and it's not exactly one of my a strong points to begin with.

very true my friend; in many respects. people often put a false face on for the world. I very strongly believe that hating someone for any reason is a reflection the hate I have for myself. I said it before and I will say it again, to hate you is to hate the things in you that mirror myself. to love you is to love the things within you that reflect myself. we are the same underneath our individuality.

I wouldn't care much if you vanished from this forum that is truth. it is an insight that shows me a glimmer of you. but the fact remains that I personally love you for being another intelligent living breathing creature and wish you no harm. it would weigh on my heart if something were to happen to you. you can call **** if you want but just becaue you don't believe it doesn't make it not so. I don't have to know you personally to be affected by your passing. it is your life I love. your vibrancy, your force if you will.

Define yourself if you must, but I won't play along or entertain the image in my head.

what we do defines each of us more readily that who we are underneath. I do not have to define a role for myself but I do need to find what makes me me, and separates you and I.

I can't really hold an image of you. I think how it happened is I didn't accept your original impression as all loving guide, then you mentioned family and a glimmer of real life was there somewhere, and that's about all I've got. The teenyist hint of someone.

fair to say, but your error is that you took what was said and perceived it as me saying I was an all loving guide, which I did not in fact say. what I said was that I love you all, and that if I share something then it is with the intent to help. then thanked you for your slapping me down because it was a little pretentious of me the way I worded it. and expanded on it in an attempt to clarify my meaning, which is simply that there are things I know how to do that you or another may not. should I share that which I have found, then I would be cast into one of those roles. if I teach you how to macramé then guess what, I am a teacher at that moment, if I advise you on what I believe the best course of action to an issue is then this is me being a guide of sorts and by very definition of a guide, you do not have to listen. my desire to provoke thought in another is brought about by my own experiences. the most profound realizations came from simply hearing another perspective and drawing my conclusions. in the same way that your experiences have taught you, they can also teach me. it is not myself that willing assigns the roles you mention, it is the recipients of my attention that may do so. and is never any more that an temporary thing. lasting only as long as the moment lasts. it does not elevate or lower anyone above or below anyone else, unless that is the perception granted to the situation.

you create your own reality.

in short stay stuck in your thinking, it is not for me to try and change you, however I would not be following my heart if I did not at least attempt to offer perspective where I can. you never know how what you say can affect someone else. the smallest actions can ripple outward and change the course of history.

[Kaimi]

Fyi. My swear in there was not... iused the word b u l l. Exactly

And if I think it and gc thinks it then it is a fair assumption that others might as well.

If I am wrong prove it.

Technically, I am an 'other' for whom that assumption is misplaced.

I have found this thread very useful. What Gem is addressing is a long term issue that I'm aware of enough to no longer respond to it, but it still challenges me in certain circumstances.

So a) I understand what is being spoken about regarding the way that language positions one and manipulates the other into a validating position - and when the other does something out of line with that position, it can get quite nasty - that's what I find challenging.

And b) I am reading the thread, listening to Gem and watching how he handles himself in these situations - from that, I can reflect on areas within my own life that I might improve.

So in this thread, I am studying - but there is no positioning. Gem is being himself, he is not a teacher or attempting to teach me. Yet, I am the learner because I am learning. Nothing else is needed.

What's more, is because there is no positioning, when I see something differently to Gem, I say so... because, despite me learning something from this thread, I don't believe Gem has, in general, any greater or lesser understanding/knowledge or ability than I do. He is my equal, and so would Jesus be if he were here - and I would happily learn from his words and equally happily, would question what he's said and offer an alternative viewpoint.

There are those who seem to think they are above that equality.

[Kaimi]

Originally Posted by Ivy

Technically, I am an 'other' for whom that assumption is misplaced.

I have found this thread very useful. What Gem is addressing is a long term issue that I'm aware of enough to no longer respond to it, but it still challenges me in certain circumstances.

So a) I understand what is being spoken about regarding the way that language positions one and manipulates the other into a validating position - and when the other does something out of line with that position, it can get quite nasty - that's what I find challenging.

And b) I am reading the thread, listening to Gem and watching how he handles himself in these situations - from that, I can reflect on areas within my own life that I might improve.

So in this thread, I am studying - but there is no positioning. Gem is being himself, he is not a teacher or attempting to teach me. Yet, I am the learner because I am learning. Nothing else is needed.

What's more, is because there is no positioning, when I see something differently to Gem, I say so... because, despite me learning something from this thread, I don't believe Gem has, in general, any greater or lesser understanding/knowledge or ability than I do. He is my equal, and so would Jesus be if he were here - and I would happily learn from his words and equally happily, would question what he's said and offer an alternative viewpoint.

There are those who seem to think they are above that equality.

Thank you I would like to accentuate my use of the word 'might' is kind of the key to the whole statement.

I agree gem has been thoroughly entertaining and wonderful about this thread as a general whole. which may seem in direct conflict with my text but I do actually hold him in high regard at the moment. but I do credit him with the highest thing I can credit anyone with. which is making me think. and though I may come across as brash or quarrelsome I still hold no animosity toward him.

I don't agree with everything, needless to say. but I don't really have to. at this point I have adoped his approach to things and am simply mimicking his actions. I am simply voicing my opinions pertaining to his. most of all telling others their methodology is nonsense and refusing to accept the roles in which have been cast. it doesn't matter if he accepts it or not because to me he is just a much a teacher as someone who needs to learn. through your own admission you are the learner, which instantly places him in the opposite role. through my own admission I say the same.

he may not want it and he may not like it but that is how it is. when he gains what he gains from another the rolls reverse. a cycle emerges and the relationship shifts dynamically to reflect that.

I would invite you to share with me what you think about the rest of my statements and thoughts, but if that small assumption which was worded in a manner that allows for this very dispute is the only thing that you have chosen to speak up about I can at the very least take that to mean, you do not particularly disagree with anything else I am saying. however I would like to point out that even though I did not place you in any role at this time, if you respond with your perspective you automatically fill a role and resign me to the opposite. At which point if you apply gems view then your position is elevated over mine, if you apply mine then the elevation if any is simply temporary at best, which means that the perception of the elevation to a role is one of fantasy, and not one of reality.

if I had to summarize it would be as follows:
nobody can tell another that they do or don't love, however they say or express it.

the roles assigned and filled by master and apprentice or student and teacher or guide and follower or what have you is a construct of the mind as is the elevation of one over the other. (something that gem has been saying more or less if I am understanding him correctly) but the insubstantial nature of these roles matters little unless they are the thing that keeps you from seeing what needs to be seen or hearing what needs to be heard. 'cant see the forest through the trees'

and finally this calling people out on their nonsense is nonsense in it self, because inadvertently gem is in fact elevating himself above others. he is telling them how to act and think and feel and word. it may not be intentional but it is still what comes across.

[Gemcrusader]

So im just reading a bit, like bits in this thread (:p)

So im reading this from you Gem:

It's difficult to be that because the whole society and everyone in it is forever expectant that we should be someone.

That seems to me as some sort of wisdom which i never heard of, but u state it as truth. Am i not right? What does it even mean?

That is not spiritual nonsense?

It does come across like u know a lot and want to show that of or somethin. It seems u want a lot of validation. And that is ego tripping. When i say i dont want to paint u like that, im right, cause its just my observation. Others may see it different. I just find that ironic when starting a thread about spiritual nonsense. It seems like ur full of it.

[Mr Interesting]

I quite like plain ol' nonsense and I was kinda hoping when all this started that it'd be about that but it seems to be about other stuff which doesn't see itself as nonsense as being defined by others as nonsense and I don't really get that.

Well, I get enough to see it isn't for me 'cause all those people who don't see what they do as nonsense to others have every right, whatever a right is, to do whatever they have to do to understand, or not, what is is they do and I've never seen it as helpful to take a position and tell them it's nonsense to me.

If anything I might hopefully see that defining it as nonsense is my way of negating what actually still be of import to me in what they do.

But sheer nonsense, not the kind of implied opposite of making sense, so much as just letting things drift about finding their own connections, taking away a need to impose sense on something before it even makes a sense... I like that. Not non as the opposing or imposing denial so much as non in the sense of nothing. Like jazz singing in a way when sounds just kinda come out and if the words are there they can make a profound kinda sense.. a new sense. Like nuisance, that's what I've gotten from this, but I forgot already, looking at the sense of being a nuisance.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Gemcrusader

So im just reading a bit, like bits in this thread (:p)

So im reading this from you Gem:

That seems to me as some sort of wisdom which i never heard of, but u state it as truth. Am i not right? What does it even mean?

That is not spiritual nonsense?

It does come across like u know a lot and want to show that of or somethin. It seems u want a lot of validation. And that is ego tripping. When i say i dont want to paint u like that, im right, cause its just my observation. Others may see it different. I just find that ironic when starting a thread about spiritual nonsense. It seems like ur full of it.

Look man, the presumption is I'm an ego tripper, and you're adding to that, and anything i say is only going to used to prop up that narrative. It doesn't matter if I say I have no truth to bring or all the other things I lay no claim to, because the paradigm has now become 'Are you not right', meaning you need to make someone wrong, so the narrative continues that I need validation AND I'm an ego tripper AND I'm full of nonsense. You don't even realise that image is concocted in your own head and doesn't exist in the world, but for one reason or another you feel the need to belittle me, so this is my response. It's all in your head and I don't accept that imagery.

[Kaimi]

Originally Posted by Mr Interesting

I quite like plain ol' nonsense and I was kinda hoping when all this started that it'd be about that but it seems to be about other stuff which doesn't see itself as nonsense as being defined by others as nonsense and I don't really get that.

Well, I get enough to see it isn't for me 'cause all those people who don't see what they do as nonsense to others have every right, whatever a right is, to do whatever they have to do to understand, or not, what is is they do and I've never seen it as helpful to take a position and tell them it's nonsense to me.

If anything I might hopefully see that defining it as nonsense is my way of negating what actually still be of import to me in what they do.

But sheer nonsense, not the kind of implied opposite of making sense, so much as just letting things drift about finding their own connections, taking away a need to impose sense on something before it even makes a sense... I like that. Not non as the opposing or imposing denial so much as non in the sense of nothing. Like jazz singing in a way when sounds just kinda come out and if the words are there they can make a profound kinda sense.. a new sense. Like nuisance, that's what I've gotten from this, but I forgot already, looking at the sense of being a nuisance.

Ooooh wow. I.... tah... um...

I yield. Well played gem. My hats off to you.. *bows out* have a good night

[Gemcrusader]

Originally Posted by Gem

Look man, the presumption is I'm an ego tripper, and you're adding to that, and anything i say is only going to used to prop up that narrative. It doesn't matter if I say I have no truth to bring or all the other things I lay no claim to, because the paradigm has now become 'Are you not right', meaning you need to make someone wrong, so the narrative continues that I need validation AND I'm an ego tripper AND I'm full of nonsense. You don't even realise that image is concocted in your own head and doesn't exist in the world, but for one reason or another you feel the need to belittle me, so this is my response. It's all in your head and I don't accept that imagery.

Well its not in my head, i just checked. :p

So how would u call quoting every quotable sentence and reply to it to defend ur own thoughts on it plus providing it with certain "wisdoms" and "intelligent fabricated sentences"
Seems to me that u "want to be right". Why dont u share ur inner thoughts and wisdom in such a way that an actual conversation is actually possible in which others can also participate?