Is This Reality Perfect?

[sky]

Originally Posted by*WabiSabi

There was a story I heard, though I don't remember where I heard it. But it was about some Zen master I think. It goes like this:*

"A young Christian man who had absolute faith in God as a personal creator asked the Zen master whether God exists. The Zen master replied that God did not exist. Another young man, this one an Atheist who had absolute faith that the universe was solely material, asked the Zen master whether God exists. The Zen master replied that God did exist."


This teaching is from Buddha.
It was used to explain that believing that god exists or not is a waste of time unless it enhances your life and the life of all sentient beings.
The reason he answers 'yes he does exist' to some and 'no he doesn't exist to others' is to leave it to the individuals to self realize.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

Well I won't lie, this thread exists solely to sate my ego. I happen to like sharing what I believe, but if I just go around spouting this kind of stuff in my everyday life I'd be tossed into the cuckoo's nest. People either need to ask the right question or share the right belief so I can contradict or agree with it. That's why this forum is so nice. I suppose I am playing into the devil's hands in that way.

LOL! Not playing into the devil's hands if you keep your eye ('I') on Reality and realize that verbal descriptions, models, beliefs etc. are only what they they are (our 'own' constructions) and not the REAL thing which we are trying to 'map' out (for any number of our 'own' Reasons), albeit they are 'real' maps and navigational devices in their own right. Artists and device makers and what the create can be quite 'divine' creations with quite 'divine' effects - even the concept of a 'devil' can be and do that, though not in the hand of scaredy-cats of and scoffers at genuine expression and personal-truth shared of course (aye what, bloomingtree? )

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

I also think it is misguided thinking to believe that the ocean is the end. We can see this in our natural world as cycles repeat. The water that reaches the ocean eventually gets recycled and starts the journey over again. There has to be 'material' to make the journey from ignorance to enlightenment, from seperation to unification. So there must be a supply of ignorance, or of 'separated material', that can then make the trip to the ocean. The water that flows towards the ocean came from the ocean itself, just as we, no matter how inauthentic we may be, arose from the ocean of life. A drop of water may spend an inconceivable amount of time in the ocean, but it will always leave eventually. Such is the way of reality. Reaching the ocean is not the end, for if you realize yourself as all that is, you embody all opposites. Ignorance and inauthenticity are just as much a part of you as knowledge and compassion.

One has to be careful not to get so wrapped up in one's maps and analogical descriptions that one thinks that they are completely representative of or mistakes them for Reality Itself, methinks. Reality is way too 'grand' to be completely encompassed by 'mere' human image-in-nation. In the case of the above 'portrait', my personal 'sense', derived from everything I have read and heard so far, is that, exceptional cases being rare exceptions in this regard, 'souls' that become 'oceanic' generally don't reincarnate again but continue to 'operate' in and may infuse inspiration from completely psychospiritual realms.

Also that not all souls 'make it' to the 'oceanic' stage - some (the irremediably 'inauthentic' ones) go 'poof' as they eventually completely lose touch with and no longer align themselves with the Reality of LIFE to the point where LIFE ITSELF no longer sustains them.

And that 'new' souls 'arise' from the 'source' of the 'river' not from the 'ocean', albeit I 'see' the 'source' and the 'ocean' as ever being and becoming 'one' in BIGGER-picture, mobius-strip convolution terms.

I am reminded of the movie, The Bridge on the River Kwai, wherein the 'leading' British office is 'given' 'command' of the British prisoners at a Japanese prison command, who takes his 'sense' of 'duty' so seriously that he feels 'honor'-bound to carry out the Japanese commander's orders and so opposes 'his' men's decision to sabotage the railway bridge (over the river), which would of course be used to further the war against the 'allies'.

That being said, although I suspect you already know this Wabisabi, for everyone's sake let me say: Don't ever let your 'ego' 'lead' you into miss-taking your 'model' (or even the term 'perfection') for actual Reality which you and everyone else is part of. Notwithstanding such possibility of being miss-taken in anyone's case, mine and bloomingtree's included, let me thank you for having stimulated a most thought-provoking conversation which I am thoroughly enjoying.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by sky123

Originally Posted by*WabiSabi

There was a story I heard, though I don't remember where I heard it. But it was about some Zen master I think. It goes like this:*

"A young Christian man who had absolute faith in God as a personal creator asked the Zen master whether God exists. The Zen master replied that God did not exist. Another young man, this one an Atheist who had absolute faith that the universe was solely material, asked the Zen master whether God exists. The Zen master replied that God did exist."


This teaching is from Buddha.
It was used to explain that believing that god exists or not is a waste of time unless it enhances your life and the life of all sentient beings.
The reason he answers 'yes he does exist' to some and 'no he doesn't exist to others' is to leave it to the individuals to self realize.

And then there are others, like myself, that have had experiences that leave no doubt to there being something guiding their life, guiding life in general. Something loving, personal and with purpose.
One such person could never truthfully say that God does not exist nor can they call what they experience is God. They simply know something that goes beyond what they can know.
IMO to replace God or no God with to self realize is simply calling what we don't know something else and I think we do that cuz we are uncomfortable with not knowing.
But most certainly I can attest that there is something bigger than I could ever conceive out there and in here and for lack of a better word, I call it God.

[sky]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

And then there are others, like myself, that have had experiences that leave no doubt to there being something guiding their life, guiding life in general. Something loving, personal and with purpose.
One such person could never truthfully say that God does not exist nor can they call what they experience is God. They simply know something that goes beyond what they can know.
IMO to replace God or no God with to self realize is simply calling what we don't know something else and I think we do that cuz we are uncomfortable with not knowing.
But most certainly I can attest that there is something bigger than I could ever conceive out there and in here and for lack of a better word, I call it God.

Yes for you there is a God because you have realized it yourself and that's what Buddha meant. There are many Buddhist who do believe in a God, it's not a rule amongst Buddhist that you shouldn't it's up to you, and I agree .

[lemex]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

That was very clear. Thanks for your input! I agree with almost everything you said, except for the part about the divine plan being for good things. I feel like that is a half-truth.

I have to agree I'm not seeing what others are seeing either. I agree there is a plan or direction and that's all we can say about it. How in world are people able to say without a bad thing we cannot know good. Personally I've never understood this thought. What people seem to be saying about the physical is the ends justify the means. God had no right to create suffering in any case.

[happy soul]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

That was very clear. Thanks for your input! I agree with almost everything you said, except for the part about the divine plan being for good things. I feel like that is a half-truth.

Thanks for responding.

Peace.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

All I am trying to do is allude to the true nature of that which Absolute.

Allude - yes. But what Is IS what Is!

Anything that can be 'thought' and 'said' (i.e. conceptualized and logically communicated) about the Whole of said ISness is at best just a partial (preferred?) truth.

Not that sayings can't be interesting, informative and even revealing of things one may not have 'seen' before, mind you. Conversation can therefore be enlightening, relatively speaking. But, as the saying goes, the Tao that can be 'spoken' is not THE Tao.

It's complicated. To focus on any aspect of it is to not 'see' the whole. Yet, by virtue of everything being a expression of what IS, ISness Itself is implicit in said aspect's being. I think it was in one of the Seth books that I remember reading something to the effect that "The entire 'universe' - or the entirety of 'Creation' - is implicit in the existence of an ant!

I agree with your statement that any 'feature' (or concept, or truth) pertaining to Life implies the existence of its opposite, possibly at another 'level' of 'Reality', WabiSabi. What I said above is just a riff on the both-perfection-and-imperfection-characterize-Reality theme. Each 'way' of 'seeing' IT it may be 'positively' useful or counterproductive in effect depending on what is focused on and when (i.e. in what 'situation') as well as why then, I think.

I personally think it helps overall to see everything as being 'perfectly' 'fitting': "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

Again I say, just riffing.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Depends on your perspective.

I've looked at this world from the perspective of it being perfect. However, from the human perspective, any world so full of circumstances and threats that could so quickly take our humanness away from (kill) us is far from perfect. Egoically, it is blatantly counterintuitive to view the world with such generous latitude.

This is how self-interest forms our realities.

.

"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistant one."
Einstein

"Death is only an experience through which you are meant to learn a great lesson.
You cannot die"
Yogananda

Regarding this temporary and material reality, here is a question to ponder...
In the Bible, in the Book of Revelation, chapter 12,
who are the "stars" cited, who are flung to the earth by the tail of the dragon?
And, who is the dragon?

And then, who are we, really?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

I also think it is misguided thinking to believe that the ocean is the end. We can see this in our natural world as cycles repeat. The water that reaches the ocean eventually gets recycled and starts the journey over again. There has to be 'material' to make the journey from ignorance to enlightenment, from seperation to unification. So there must be a supply of ignorance, or of 'separated material', that can then make the trip to the ocean. The water that flows towards the ocean came from the ocean itself, just as we, no matter how inauthentic we may be, arose from the ocean of life. A drop of water may spend an inconceivable amount of time in the ocean, but it will always leave eventually. Such is the way of reality. Reaching the ocean is not the end, for if you realize yourself as all that is, you embody all opposites. Ignorance and inauthenticity are just as much a part of you as knowledge and compassion.[/quote]

Originally Posted by DavidSun

One has to be careful not to get so wrapped up in one's maps and analogical descriptions that one thinks that they are completely representative of or mistakes them for Reality Itself, methinks. Reality is way too 'grand' to be completely encompassed by 'mere' human image-in-nation. In the case of the above 'portrait', my personal 'sense', derived from everything I have read and heard so far, is that, exceptional cases being rare exceptions in this regard, 'souls' that become 'oceanic' generally don't reincarnate again but continue to 'operate' in and may infuse inspiration from completely psychospiritual realms.

Also that not all souls 'make it' to the 'oceanic' stage - some (the irremediably 'inauthentic' ones) go 'poof' as they eventually completely lose touch with and no longer align themselves with the Reality of LIFE to the point where LIFE ITSELF no longer sustains them.

And that 'new' souls 'arise' from the 'source' of the 'river' not from the 'ocean', albeit I 'see' the 'source' and the 'ocean' as ever being and becoming 'one' in BIGGER-picture, mobius-strip convolution terms.

WabiSabi...it does all come down to your individuated consciousness. To your conscious intent, and to manifesting that intent in conscious choices and actions (words, deeds).

Along with lovingkindness and living from the heart center, with awakened mind in service to awakened heart...

...equanimity is what we all actually need. Not detachment as in disassociation per se, but rather equal attachment to all others, equally to the self (as a perfect ideal to keep in mind/heart).

That balance and what it yields is ultimately Nirvana...but nirvana is the by-product and not the goal. You attain the goal (so to speak) by becoming yourself ever more truly, madly, and deeply Your true self, i.e., authentic love, in being and doing. That is nirvana. Sorry, had to insert a touch of humour. But seriously

IMO...(just MO)...folks will consciously strive for right alignment and will by act of conscious intent and choice, leaving the eddy quite naturally once they begin to take ownership and consciously walk their path. Timing varies, but the impact of ownership and conscious choice does not.

That's the magic of it all...everything matters and nothing is without import, regardless of the illusion of meaninglessness with which we are presented by the superficial aspects of our reality. Overcoming the despair and the cynicism promoted by the blatant wrongdoing and injustices of this reality is extremely difficult and I feel for you.

Despair in particular is a real challenge...we are not machines, we feel for humanity, and thus the perfect place of equanimity is elusive and is always a work in progress, as its energy can literally incinerate this reality without a massive counter-foundation of lovingkindness to absorb and balance it. For me, I absolutely channel most of the energy of equanimity I tap into support for social justice and working for the real, concrete manifestations of care, kindness, aid, and support on the ground in the world. I highly recommend it...staying grounded is the best thing on earth for just about 100% of humanity.

Despite our challenges, and as a result of them, both, we have only to awaken to the strength and love that we are at centre. This reveals itself most powerfully when the struggle is hardest and the nights are darkest.

Peace & blessings
7L

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Despite our challenges, and as a result of them, both, we have only to awaken to the strength and love that we are at centre. This reveals itself most powerfully when the struggle is hardest and the nights are darkest.

Peace & blessings
7L

I am practically always impressed by the clarity-and-warmth quality of yer chooglin', 7L.

Am most appreciative and grateful for your presence - which adds immensely to my experience of Love and Joy in this often upside-down world!