Anattā (no self)

Originally Posted by sky123

Yes it was intentionally doctured, you couldn't change the wordings from the book through error.
I have the book on my Tablet now and I'm looking forward to reading it

It was pretty popular way back when and I have to thank Rain95 for bringing the quotes (although your one made much more sense as the other context was inaccurately represented)

An astute teacher, although I don't know too much about his community or teachings. I do know Pema Chodren is a serious teacher and practitioner.

JL

Originally Posted by sentient

No – not the sweetest – just timid according to my ‘totemic nature’ (but that is another story & it is not Buddhism).

*

Kindly.

Originally Posted by sentient

When people act this way described – he/she is recognized as the Elder. Or that is the 'Shaman's "power".

Many names, one source.

JL

[Gem]

Apparently It is common knowledge that Trungpa drank to excess, had sexual relations with many of his students, and seemed to have no regard for right conduct in his organisation. I wouldn't have anything to do with a bloke like that, myself.



Chodron has been implicated in cover ups, unsurprisingly given her adoration for Trungpa and devotion to the organisation. She published statements about that.



A person who assumes a powerful position but can't conduct themselves respectfully are dangerous and harmful. People were abused, there are allegations of rape, ashram trustees became corrupt and predatory, and people were harmed, including women "of all ages". Trungpa and his school wasn't proper. It was not worthy of refuge as is simply was not safe, and I say keep well clear of these so-called 'teachers' who don't understand even the most basic aspects of best practice.


https://www.lionsroar.com/pema-chodr...m-young-woman/

Originally Posted by Gem

Apparently It is common knowledge that Trungpa drank to excess, had sexual relations with many of his students, and seemed to have no regard for right conduct in his organisation. I wouldn't have anything to do with a bloke like that, myself.



Chodron has been implicated in cover ups, unsurprisingly given her adoration for Trungpa and devotion to the organisation. She published statements about that.

A person who assumes a powerful position but can't conduct themselves respectfully are dangerous and harmful. People were abused, there are allegations of rape, ashram trustees became corrupt and predatory, and people were harmed, including women "of all ages". Trungpa and his school wasn't proper. It was not worthy of refuge as is simply was not safe, and I say keep well clear of these so-called 'teachers' who don't understand even the most basic aspects of best practice.

https://www.lionsroar.com/pema-chodr...m-young-woman/

Yes, unfortunately we've seen instances of this, and that's why I never gravitated towards his teachings, even though anytime anyone (accurately) quotes them, I recognize that his writings are astute and they've been widely praised in Buddhist circles. Him being an alcoholic does not do away with the insights he gained and recognition of that - and him drinking heavily is well known and openly shown. I don't know more than that, so defer to others on this..

Theravadan schools - of which your ashram is - has a very strict code as it's based on the Vinaya - Buddha's rules for a Sangha and that includes no sex, no drinking, no eating after noon (although different places may have slight variations here), no possessions, no drugs etc. It can be very beautiful, but also a struggle for the monastics - it's a respectful thing.

I'm not judging as I know not enough about the Shambhala school, but I do think these are valid points to recognize and consider for newer student.

Having said that, the Buddhist path is still a very individual one in terms of individual realization and actualization. I would not throw out the baby with the bath water, in all cases, and I personally think it's common sense to adopt the school and practice tradition that one resonates with most - and practice with ardency, true self awareness, and genuine liberating insight that leads to peace and happiness in one's own heart/mind. You* will know for yourself, just as you* know the quenching of your own thirst on a hot day. (*You = general, not Gem)

The Buddha's teachings are accurate.

JL

[Gem]

Originally Posted by janielee

Yes, unfortunately we've seen instances of this, and that's why I never gravitated towards his teachings, even though anytime anyone (accurately) quotes them, I recognize that his writings are astute and they've been widely praised in Buddhist circles. Him being an alcoholic does not do away with the insights he gained and recognition of that - and him drinking heavily is well known and openly shown. I don't know more than that, so defer to others on this..

Theravadan schools - of which your ashram is - has a very strict code as it's based on the Vinaya - Buddha's rules for a Sangha and that includes no sex, no drinking, no eating after noon (although different places may have slight variations here), no possessions, no drugs etc. It can be very beautiful, but also a struggle for the monastics - it's a respectful thing.

I'm not judging as I know not enough about the Shambhala school, but I do think these are valid points to recognize and consider for newer student.

Having said that, the Buddhist path is still a very individual one in terms of individual realization and actualization. I would not throw out the baby with the bath water, in all cases, and I personally think it's common sense to adopt the school and practice tradition that one resonates with most - and practice with ardency, true self awareness, and genuine liberating insight that leads to peace and happiness in one's own heart/mind. You* will know for yourself, just as you* know the quenching of your own thirst on a hot day. (*You = general, not Gem)

The Buddha's teachings are accurate.

JL

No excuses. Throw it all out lock stock and barrel. I suggest keeping well clear of that school, its offshoots, and the things it teaches or people will start by being besotted by 'spiritual teachings', then revere 'the guru', and then be destroyed. Find a proper school that is founded on sila, and if the sangha are not living that, run for the hills.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Yes good pay attention to the part on ego!

Yes I will Rain, thanks for the reminder I try to take very good care of my ego so any help that's of benefit will be given close attention.

[sky]

Originally Posted by janielee

Hi sky123,

My take is that we aren't dealing with an honest individual, so you are more likely to be met with games and trying to divert attention in return:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...postcount=1340

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...postcount=1357

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...postcount=1368

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...postcount=1370

Rain95 has claimed on this forum she is an ex military strong male, then a young female, then a one time retreatant, then a student of Krish/Mooji, now an ex-Benedictine monk who lived at a monastery.

I think there are some serious issues here; I wish Rain95 well, and good mental health in future.

_______

I also think that this has been a very informative discussion, not least because people who read a book and repeat it back, are regurgitating information - but not yet practical insight or transformative experiential being-ness. It's sad when there is malice or lying though, and this is where the interest dies down for me - people who can't be honest have a way to go in their spiritual foundation, in my opinion.

JL

Yes your right there does seem to be some issues, best left and ignore in the future. I know what I said and the reasons, no malice nor anger was intended, if others see differently then that's coming from them and not me.

I'm still amused though

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Rain95

That's a great post. Some of what appears to me...

If the no self is wordless awareness then the understanding would be through the ‘one aware of itself as wordless awareness’ speaking/expressing

Yes the wordless awareness, I like to say it as non-conceptual awareness, the noticing of it's absence in the now by becoming aware of what is, brings it back into forefront or being. Once you know the wordless state, you can bring it into being by recognizing it is not present. But one is always naturally returning to words. So it is a constant thing or practice to be aware now. Seems like only the awareness of, and denial of word based awareness brings the other into being. But teachers say with enough practice this reverses. One will be wordless or non-conceptual the majority of the time and return to "ego" rarely. For me it's the reverse of that. Word based majority, wordless rarely.

Are you aware your still playing games with your illusionary self? Are you still entertaining it, unaware you are?

My answer to that is yes. Well I would not say I am aware I am unaware. I am unaware I am unaware! That's why we slip back into ego and words. Complete forgetting and unawareness. The words become us and us them. It happens easily and without noticing. But I'm still in a period where "wordless awareness" is rare, I'd also say depth varies. How wordless we are in other words, how much of the conceptual or ego or person is cleared away.

I remember a while back where by those subtle levels where I was still recoiling into old conditioning, very aware I was through each shift, I was then able to move into a more conscious presence of two sides at play in myself. Some close people around me, still unaware it was s temporary process, couldn’t believe how quickly I could shift myself. Those recoiling points were catalyst and practice
To let it all be in myself aware and just staying present to clear out those reactions. Then I noticed I reached a point where those subtle threads, no longer reacted. I’m noticing more so now, I’m more learning to not react to others caught up in there’s. It can come into the circle of you from many subtle invasions..of others. They are good learning and points to see how it ends in this way.

I’m more interested in majority of time, you mentioned,so there are no short cuts only full presence and acceptance of yourself as you are.

For me wordless awareness is the wise self or your inner guide, creative flow. It’s still you, of course, but clarity and your inner balance aware allows it to flow, with awarenesss, it is clear. It’s coming from clarity and you know this, because you feel it. For me it’s easy because I see the process in myself unfolding. I’m aware of the points of clarity and when it’s not infused with trappings of conditioned behaviours or emotional disturbances.

I generally can feel through peoples words if they are still reacting. Your one who doesn’t, you have a very balanced even feel regardless of the words your expressing. I notice this. It’s a bit like some of my kindred friends who can smell colours. I feel resistances and reactive behaviours in words. They may not even be conscious of it themselves but it’s felt. I’ve used this as a good base to stay present and see where I still react. That’s a cue for me and letting threads burn up, to end them in me.

I feel like my wordless/non conceptual awareness leads me now more than the me of old, so it’s easier to just be me and flow without too much need to be attentive. When you can relax into just being you, comfortable with what you’ve become and present to the world around you, that’s a good sign for me.

When the baggage no longer contains you and your moving open and clear and like who you are, that too is a good sign.

It’s like listening here to petty disagreements on correct ways and correct understandings, correct everything-it’s a curious thing to observe. What part of ones mind is deciding it needs to be worded and stated as so? Is that need to have everything correct and right? Is that the mind still in its own conflict to get itself in order? Is that elevating oneself over others where they reside, to make them look smarter, better or more informed? It’s a curious thing. Maybe the truth is something we all fight for? One way or another, or perhaps what aspect of truth is most important to each of us.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by janielee

Seems pretty straightforward when you say it like that.

Janie hello there.

Tis. I have learnt to boil things down where possible due to all the technical papers & decks for management. Yet...in so many cases, you still need the detail for deeper understanding, so you gotta work that in somewhere as well.

Thank you so much for your kind words on my response to Rain as well.
You're right it didn't really address your points specifically. It was more trying to meet Rain where he was, as I understood that to be.
On that broader note, I have posted a bit below to explore that a bit more deeply.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

To those who are more experiential learners....

For those who ground in sensory experience naturally -- I want to say this very strongly to you. Don't limit yourself. Don't limit yourself to being just a sensate (learns through sensory experience). We are always more than the realisations of the sensory, particularly the lowest or oldest, survival-type sensory experiences (fear, sex, desire/drive to possess or acquire). There are many other equally strong paths to learning, and what is important here is that at a certain place on your journey, you will need to begin to move into those other modes of learning, doing, and being. Most importantly, it means putting your sensory learning in service to all that is, to put it in service to what is. To take the next step(s). Simply put, to centre it and ground it in authentic love. To bound it (establish boundaries via ownership/awareness in the moment) and channel the energy in service of what is and not just in the derivative service of pleasure and feels and unbounded sensate assimilation. There is no other way but what is. And what is cannot be apprehended purely from the sensory. Importantly, that goes for what is regarding you and your being as well.

I am trying to convey the sense that 1) experience is not just sensory in the sense of the "hard senses" and 2) also that the sensory itself is not simply limited to our interaction with what is seemingly external to the self, but most of all 3) the sensory experience is a pointer -- it's not the be all and end all. Just as Buddha said about emptiness, we also need to say about purely identifying with the material experience -- do not dwell there wholly. In other words, it is always a step on our journey to greater realisation. It is the setting for realisation and being.

The material realm is NOT meant to be purely a massive misdirection and obstruction (like endlessly fueling our additions, like streaming porn, etc.). But rather a source of endless growth and experiential realization. However it WILL consistently tend toward that, IF we think that all realisation can be gained purely from sensory experience and overreliance on the "right hand" (expansiveness, acquisition/permeation, compassion, kindness), without balance from the left hand (contraction/boundaries, discipline, awe, strength, fortitude, justice, wisdom). It will always go toward endless desire and enslavement to sensory experience unless we apprehend that all that is, is present in each moment, and live from that centre in ways that are compassionate and balanced.

In our current moment, we are experiencing severe imbalances and great extremes globally. In the West, we have a severe imbalance toward amoral expansiveness and acquisition, in the sense of material goods as well as all other potentially unbounded desires (sex, drugs, etc) -- although the awareness of the need for greater compassion is also finally beginning to arrive...to tepid applause and to a reluctant society of hedonists and dilettantes, who are now realising they are supposed to give a damn, since other sentient beings. The discipline, strength, fortitude, discernment and wisdom of the left hand are greatly weakened, or missing.

So here we are with the great increase in energy workers -- what a surprise, in a society full of fire, it's super easy for many of us...and yes, if and when these gifts are committed to the greater good, they can be a source of great good in the word. If. When.

There is a wealth of inner work and inner reflection that is not going to give you a rush or really any stimulation whatsoever in the common sense of the meaning. Much of it is difficult and requires presence and commitment. There is struggle and there are challenges. And yet, those reflective experiences are some of the most critical and important. I will make a distinction between group work and self work and pure sitting. But all those things are important...and you won't find them anywhere "out there" to see or feel or touch in our day-to-day world.

It's that which I was speaking to, in regard to those who rely on primarily solo energy work. To give context to those whose journey has focused less on this as a separate aspect, if at all. Because at a certain point, energy workers are routinely guided in many ways toward what many energy workers call "higher healing", which is simply all the inner reflection and inner work - group, solo, and sitting. As well as the day-to-day grounded practice of those things in our most person lives...certainly including ownership, forgiveness, reconciliation, making amends/karmic healing, as well as right alignment in day-to-day life.

If we ignore the natural progress toward what Buddhists simply call your practice, which energy workers call (under a variety of settings) "higher healing" or "inner work", then we are in that place of inner dissonance and ultimately, hypocrisy. I'll say it straight out...higher healing is hard work for energy workers, just like everyone else Daily practice with ongoing reflection and taking ownership (conscious choices) is loads harder for most energy workers coz they are still just human beings and the energy work comes easily.

Some of us may have to hit our own wall repeatedly before realising the need to ground the practice day-to-day in a foundational way that doesn't much align with mainstream society and getting yours (including your feels), whatever it takes. Mainly, in my experience, this has to do with naturally grativating (sometimes gently & sometimes very harshly) toward inner work. Daily practice makes this obvious, as does conscious living, living with presence. But due to the incessant messages and context of mainstream society, I look around and see many, many, many folks who are becoming aware of the dissonance but who are still dwelling there. And many others who are much more fully aware but who have dug into their resistance and who also still choosing to dwell there .

So we get folks who will say there is no focused practice, no inner work apart from the energy work, because I am one with the universe or I am one with the energy and it's all naturally arising so I don't have to reflect or take ownership or walk my path with presence in this moment. It just is.

But that is not (IMO) what they will say when they take the next step, or the next or the next. When they let go and move past their inner resistance at some level to being here now with presence and ownership. IMO...we don't disparage the inner work and its manifestation (ownership, etc) simply because it's harder, and we own that we are reluctant because it's difficult and it's painful. And to my fellow travellers who come to this point, where now it's getting really tough...welcome to the human race.

What I am discussing here is really the same struggle but from the perspective of folks who have a gift of this, versus that. Like any gift, it's meant for service in love and healing, and to awaken humility and compassion. Not indulgence, gratification or exploitation...and at some point, it's a fine line you're crossing. But that's a lesson humanity learn slowly

Peace & blessings
7L