how do you talk about mindfulness?

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

...I can't even claim that those two things are bad and try to rid myself of them, without veering away from that which I seek...

I would imagine the thing above is more a matter of stopping our creation of such things as opposed to getting rid of them. See what I mean? The only way the past or the future become a part of our now is by us entertaining such thoughts about such things. We have to put our attention on these memories or thoughts (if they exist or are present). I think we can put our attention on anything we want whenever we want although we may not always be aware we have this option. But if such things are present, we gave them life though paying attention to them. While the origin of such things is probably the brain, they are vaporware, nothing, unless they capture our attention. We have to engage with them in a kind of dance. So it's not a matter of getting rid of them, we did not make them! It's just matter of stopping to dance with them. Just notice our attention is focused there which opens the option to not have it there.

A metaphor is like how we are breathing. How do you stop it? Well it is usually a sub-conscious thing. The body is just doing it. Normally we have zero awareness we are breathing as our attention is on other things. To stop it, we have to become conscious we are "doing it" then we just "hold our breath." If we "forget" to be aware of it, the body just picks up again doing it sub-consciously.

This reminds me of a zen exercise which is to do things consciously we normally do un-consciously. Like turn a door handle for example. We do this without thinking about it. Lifting some food to our mouth with a fork or spoon. Here again, the body just does it with no thought required. I myself don't see any point in doing this exercise though. I think if we were aware like this, we would be standing still waiting to watch something which would not come lol. Unconscious thought is the driver of a lot of activity and if we are so aware thought stops, what would we do? Well the brain has no problem sneaking in a thought so the exercise is mute though it would be trippy to "eat" for example doing everything "consciously" if that is even possible. I think "consciousness" doesn't have much of a say in our internal content which leads to "doing." But I think consciousness can ignore some content the brain offers.

Besides controlling breathing, the body (brain) makes thoughts sub-consciously. We are not walking around and then consciously say, I want this thought to pop into my head. Though we CAN do that! I would also argue the idea to do that in the first place was sub-conscious from the brain. But yea a teacher can tell us to think of a monkey or whatever so then it origin is external to our brain as somebody else's brain made it. But like the breathing, the brain makes thoughts, we on auto-pilot entertain them. Accept them as giving us some aspect of reality. Which they may or may not be doing. I would guess usually, we just passively accept thought as a thing representative of reality not being aware thought is adding a subjective self-centered overlay to reality. It is reality altered for a "person" who has a self centered view point. It's like what does this "reality" mean for me, as opposed to just seeing what is without a mental comment, without a "what does it mean for me" comment or thought.

[Maisy]

Say thoughts about the "past or future" are seen as some kind of "problem" and so we want to get rid of them. We can't. The brain makes them not us. So the problem is not getting rid of them, the problem is unconsciously having our attention "in them." So it's just an awareness thing. The moment you are aware your attention is there you are free of them. But that's the thing. No reason to be bothered by something that is not present in the now. Is one focusing on a past memory now? If not they have no reality and one is imagining a problem that does not exist in the present. Also as someone mentioned, some past and future thinking is pleasurable. If it's positive and makes one happy and feels good why would someone want to be free of such a thing? I wouldn't.

Seems like it's a complicated subject and nuanced like every subject may be. Spirituality may be summed up as how to be happy and a good person. In that case, it's the negative thoughts that are the problem, fear stuff, hurt stuff, anger stuff etc. Not the good loving stuff.

[Gem]

The thing about ego, or that false sense of self, is the reason why mindfulness is a particular practice. The reason we don't think it's particular and treat it generally is the teachers have more status than understanding, and just about every method described on Google includes contradictions to the underlying principle of 'just observe'. Because the rest of us aren't critical thinkers, we accept what the authorities say even when we can see one thing contradicts another.

Hence when the actual mindfulness becomes uncomfortable and tumultuous, we add a little something extra from a teacher for our own comfort and relief instead of being determined to persist 'come what may'. If you are observant, you can see how the 'added extra' is impelled by aversions and desires, but since we consider that to be the normal driver of our lives, we don't even notice it, just as fish doesn't notice the water it is in.

That's why we have the 'know not what they do' behaviors. We think mindfulness is a special experience, so there's desire, and when it isn't what we want it to be: frustration, impatience, boredom and such adverse reactions. That's what we call 'ego'. The false self is nothing but a constricted wound up ball of psychological reactivity that Buddhists call 'craving'.

The Buddhist approach regards the 4 Truths. There is suffering, suffering has a cause, suffering can end, there is a 'way' to end it. When we hear 'the way to end it', we automatically assume that means we need to do something to make it end, but mindfulness only applies what is endemic. It's already there: conscious awareness, and the rest is much like notice what you are doing and cease doing it.

Then you 'know just what you do', and if you are the knower of doing, then you are not the doer of the doing, and if you are not the doer of doings, there is no doer doing - but there is a watcher witnessing.

Rather than all this being general jibber jabber, it is a philosophy of practice. If the philosophical understanding is there, then no one can tell you 'how to' meditate. Also, when they do, you will see where and how what they do say contradicts your understanding. That means you will go forward according to your own insight, understanding properly, and remain steadfast on that path of truth.

Originally Posted by Maisy

Seems like it's a complicated subject and nuanced like every subject may be. Spirituality may be summed up as how to be happy and a good person. In that case, it's the negative thoughts that are the problem, fear stuff, hurt stuff, anger stuff etc. Not the good loving stuff.

Maisy,

Of course it is stepping out on a limb to present a summation of what spirituality is. Happiness,IMO, is a doomed pursuit. By literal definition happiness is dependent on things that happen. Due to the existence of free will the desires of others can thwart your happiness. These are the things that are beyond your control.

What actually seems important is one’s reactions to the things that happen. I would suggest that spirituality is embracing gratitude. The Latin words ‘amor fati’ translates as ‘love your fate’. This is a recognition that your painful experiences provide a great learning opportunity. The ultimate goal of learning is truth. For me it is impossible to not recognize that spirituality and gratitude are inseparable……

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Maisy,

Happiness,IMO, is a doomed pursuit. By literal definition happiness is dependent on things that happen. Due to the existence of free will the desires of others can thwart your happiness. These are the things that are beyond your control

Happiness is a state of mind, the desires of others cannot thwart our happiness unless we allow them to.

We are what we think, all that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world, be it happiness or unhappiness....

Is happiness synonymous with joy ?

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Molearner

The Latin words ‘amor fati’ translates as ‘love your fate’. This is a recognition that your painful experiences provide a great learning opportunity. The ultimate goal of learning is truth. For me it is impossible to not recognize that spirituality and gratitude are inseparable……

Yes. Truth is what most humans ( even without realisation, they are ) are seeking and you could say it seeks you especially when you’re not aligning to it, where your process, is in readiness. Gratitude and spirituality are inseparable,you are spot on. When we suffer we often lose the connection to gratitude, which then activates a deep sense of lack, in so many ways, of ourselves and life.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Is happiness synonymous with joy ?

They are both 'states of mind'.....

[Redchic12]

#135. Love your comments Sky. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Originally Posted by sky

We are what we think, all that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world, be it happiness or unhappiness....

Sky,

I would have to disagree. Most people would assume that mind and intelligence are closely connected……believing this one would expect that the higher the level of intelligence the higher would be the level of happiness. I do not believe that this can be documented.