Back to Buddhist philosophy

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I have thought about this a little more and would go even further.

In the West or at least here it is very common for people to dismiss something as not Buddhism if the don’t believe it.

If it’s not in the Pali Cannon it’s not Buddhism. If it’s Tibetan its not Buddhism. Tantra isn’t Buddhism, energy practices isn’t Buddhism, more than one Buddha isn’t Buddhism, Mahayana isn’t real Buddhism.

The above is pretty common.

The problem isn’t just saying someone is or isn’t a Buddhist. It seems to me it’s more along the lines of if you don’t agree with my beliefs you are not a Buddhist.

Much like political discussions nowadays. If you disagree it is no longer an intellectual discussion but you are a horrible person and must be silenced.

You make some very nice points.

Thank you.


I mentioned, not too long ago, how a monk, in one version of Buddhism, had to be able to walk a monkey stick and recite from memory various texts in order to become a monk. As typical, the discussion did not go very well.

If I had known about walking the monkey stick when I was a youth,
I am pretty sure I could have mastered that.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I have rarely read anything about the pain you always talk about. Beginners should not be meditating for long periods of time. I mention the labeling because it is the heart of the meditation Sutra you mention often. Which sects focus on pain and not labeling and which ones do? Honestly the only one that I know of is vispasanna. I am not a huge fan as people tend to associate everything with pain. Obstructions are pain etc. Takes a long time to change that.

I'm taking about sensation (vedana), which is central in Buddhist philosophy and is categorised as pain, pleasure and neutral. The importance in this regard is craving arises from vedana. hencewhy I explain how sensation relates to craving which incites volition which generates suffering which is expressed toward others as ill-will.

Some schools interpret 'I know it's a long breath' as labeling I suppose. I have heard it on 'how to meditate' websites before, but my view is, stop doing all that and just feel the air.

Why not? How do you learn?

Sometimes I look something up as a bit of a refresher, but I studied in school along with 10 hour days of meditation.

If we are debating cetanna, which we have, do you not want to read up on it? Are you so positive your understanding is the correct one?

No, and no.

I’m not nor would I expect others to take it on faith.

Indeed, no.

Then your comments are interesting in your previous reply.

TY

Not for a Buddha they don’t ;)

Ok, I wouldn't know about that.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I have thought about this a little more and would go even further.

In the West or at least here it is very common for people to dismiss something as not Buddhism if the don’t believe it.

If it’s not in the Pali Cannon it’s not Buddhism. If it’s Tibetan its not Buddhism. Tantra isn’t Buddhism, energy practices isn’t Buddhism, more than one Buddha isn’t Buddhism, Mahayana isn’t real Buddhism.

The above is pretty common.

TBH, I do recall you saying 'that's not Buddhism' on numerous occasions, but not that this is something I wish to point out. What I'm getting at is when casting outward various aspersions, it's important to know the condition of yourself, which merely stresses my central point about self-awareness being necessary for this topic.

The problem isn’t just saying someone is or isn’t a Buddhist. It seems to me it’s more along the lines of if you don’t agree with my beliefs you are not a Buddhist.

Much like political discussions nowadays. If you disagree it is no longer an intellectual discussion but you are a horrible person and must be silenced.

Well the meaning behind that pertains to the state of mind leaping to agree and disagree isn't the sort of mind that observes 'this'. Not that it matters if you are in that state of mind not or if you agree or disagree or not. It only matters if you're conscious of your mind state. The topic is prior to agreeing and disagreeing. It's the self awareness that enables you to 'know just what you do'.


From there, no one is agreeing and disagreeing. There is one aware of their mind's goings on. In my case I write the long posts to explain something and am indifferent to anyone agreeing or disagreeing. That's just how they fabricate the right and wrong that manufactures knowledge. It's all besides the point, though. It's practically irrelevant. The point is not not to do that or to do that or do something else. The point is the direct awareness, 'this is what I do".

[Gem]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

You make some very nice points.

Thank you.


I mentioned, not too long ago, how a monk, in one version of Buddhism, had to be able to walk a monkey stick and recite from memory various texts in order to become a monk. As typical, the discussion did not go very well.

If I had known about walking the monkey stick when I was a youth,
I am pretty sure I could have mastered that.

We were told a story about two guys. One wore red glasses and the other green. The first said to the second, The world is red, and the second replied, No. It green. They then spent the hours trying to convince each other of what they were each so sure. Eventually they took their glasses off and were surprised to find that the only reason they argued at all was because they were both deluded by their respective lenses.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Gem

We were told a story about two guys. One wore red glasses and the other green. The first said to the second, The world is red, and the second replied, No. It green. They then spent the hours trying to convince each other of what they we each so sure. Eventually they took their glasses off and were surprised to find that the only reason they argued at all was because they were both deluded by their respective lenses.

INTERESTING OBSERVATION!

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Why not? How do you learn?;

Experiencing and reflecting on experiencing. Observing what is. Being aware of internal content and where my attention is. Being more aware in the here and now. Being aware of what I am feeding and creating with where I place my attention. Being aware of how and what I am perceiving and aware of choices I have in that to choose what is perceived and experienced and projected. To choose what I am in this moment and to be aware such choices exist.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

If we are debating (xyz), which we have, do you not want to read up on it? Are you so positive your understanding is the correct one?

I am here now as is my experiencing, how can anything external to me, like a book or writings show me what is going on within myself? It is here now for me to plainly observe or to be aware of. If my interest is to be free of mental filtering over an otherwise peaceful and wholly complete now, adding anything to this, such as a desire to "know more" is like a horse trying to get into it's own saddle, or like a dog chasing his tail, no attention to mental content can free the attention from mental content. No questions frees one. No answers frees one. The absence of a desire to seek something other than what is, or to know something other than what is, or to experience something other than what is, is the attention not being in the mental. The doing nothing, the seeking nothing, the wanting nothing is the doing everything, getting everything... It seems complex and confusing but only because one knows of no other way to be here now except through an interpretation by the mind.

That little or large voice in us that we have to "be something." That we are not ok as we are. Not perfect as we are. That we need to be doing something. That is only known when our attention is in the mental. What are we when we are free of mental content? No ideas, beliefs, thoughts, opinions, knowledge, .... when we are just perception without mental interpretation from within...

We are consciousness as we are... un sullied...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Experiencing and reflecting on experiencing. Observing what is. Being aware of internal content and where my attention is. Being more aware in the here and now. Being aware of what I am feeding and creating with where I place my attention. Being aware of how and what I am perceiving and aware of choices I have in that to choose what is perceived and experienced and projected. To choose what I am in this moment and to be aware such choices exist.



I am here now as is my experiencing, how can anything external to me, like a book or writings show me what is going on within myself? It is here now for me to plainly observe or to be aware of. If my interest is to be free of mental filtering over an otherwise peaceful and wholly complete now, adding anything to this, such as a desire to "know more" is like a horse trying to get into it's own saddle, or like a dog chasing his tail, no attention to mental content can free the attention from mental content. No questions frees one. No answers frees one. The absence of a desire to seek something other than what is, or to know something other than what is, or to experience something other than what is, is the attention not being in the mental. The doing nothing, the seeking nothing, the wanting nothing is the doing everything, getting everything... It seems complex and confusing but only because one knows of no other way to be here now except through an interpretation by the mind.

Well, the basic Buddhist ontology is to assume Gotama is the enlightened one, and due to his wisdom we could give the dhamma teaching the benefit of the doubt, but it is necessary to think about it so see if it stacks up, makes sense, seems reasonable, withstands critique. Finally, one would need to investigate it for themselves to see through direct experience if it is true or untrue, and if true, the way in which it is true. If some section does not make sense and you have no reason to believe it, then don't buy it. Don't accept it nor reject it, agree nor disagree, just leave it alone and maybe time will tell.

That little or large voice in us that we have to "be something." That we are not ok as we are. Not perfect as we are. That we need to be doing something. That is only known when our attention is in the mental. What are we when we are free of mental content? No ideas, beliefs, thoughts, opinions, knowledge, .... when we are just perception without mental interpretation from within...

We are consciousness as we are... un sullied...

Yes, the voice says me, my, mine in obsession with self-referential thoughts, and true enough all the teachers are saying do this, count breaths, visualise a dead guy, mantra that, but I will then say, Stop doing that. My logical process is this: the volition (will to do) is incited by craving. Craving is cause of suffering. Cessations of craving is 'the way'. There is no volition without craving. Therefore, meditation is non-volitional observation.

Originally Posted by Gem

We were told a story about two guys. One wore red glasses and the other green. The first said to the second, The world is red, and the second replied, No. It green. They then spent the hours trying to convince each other of what they were each so sure. Eventually they took their glasses off and were surprised to find that the only reason they argued at all was because they were both deluded by their respective lenses.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=24049

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Experiencing and reflecting on experiencing. Observing what is. Being aware of internal content and where my attention is. Being more aware in the here and now. Being aware of what I am feeding and creating with where I place my attention. Being aware of how and what I am perceiving and aware of choices I have in that to choose what is perceived and experienced and projected. To choose what I am in this moment and to be aware such choices exist.



I am here now as is my experiencing, how can anything external to me, like a book or writings show me what is going on within myself? It is here now for me to plainly observe or to be aware of. If my interest is to be free of mental filtering over an otherwise peaceful and wholly complete now, adding anything to this, such as a desire to "know more" is like a horse trying to get into it's own saddle, or like a dog chasing his tail, no attention to mental content can free the attention from mental content. No questions frees one. No answers frees one. The absence of a desire to seek something other than what is, or to know something other than what is, or to experience something other than what is, is the attention not being in the mental. The doing nothing, the seeking nothing, the wanting nothing is the doing everything, getting everything... It seems complex and confusing but only because one knows of no other way to be here now except through an interpretation by the mind.

That little or large voice in us that we have to "be something." That we are not ok as we are. Not perfect as we are. That we need to be doing something. That is only known when our attention is in the mental. What are we when we are free of mental content? No ideas, beliefs, thoughts, opinions, knowledge, .... when we are just perception without mental interpretation from within...

We are consciousness as we are... un sullied...

Someone who is not in balance within to experience themselves more directly through the moment of what arises, simply means somewhere within them there is still a point of surrender to ‘know this’.. this point of the ‘unknown’ is often about ‘complete’ trust in oneself and ones process as ‘things are’ ..without holding onto anything. ‘Emptiness dancing’

In saying this many (holding beliefs guiding the way) struggle with believing one can learn everything about themselves and gain naturally through clarity and transformation in this way of living and being, with close attention to themselves more directly. Abilities and gifts (whatever you see them as) naturally open to ‘know’ yourself in every way you ‘make room’ in yourself to know the truth and true you.

So the tipping point from external seeking moves when one surrenders to themselves fully. Realizing nothing outside of themselves will bring them home to ‘life’ within. The cross over from the known to the unknown more directly as the ‘experience experiencing itself’ aware in this way, allows you to live with yourself and things as they are, aware it’s all temporary and changing movements that can’t take you from yourself as you ‘know’ yourself to be, now your awake to the truth of yourself. Awake and aware ‘directly’

This direct experience knows it can access through its own direct source from within.

[Gem]

Just indulging my vanity by posting this story I wrote:


There was a guy who became tired of life, and he told two friends he would climb a hill where a spring came from the ground and remain there, away from it all. They were the last words he said for a very long time. The two friends he told would climb that hill on weekends, one or the other or both, and bring food up there, hang out for a while, and leave. They would ask the fellow how long would he stay up here alone, when will he come home, but he wouldn't reply, just shrug, which was bemusing at first, but after a few visits his friends understood: he was there so he didn't have to answer questions, after all. Years went by, and his two friends didn't waver, every week visiting him next to the spring. The first few visits were out of worry for him, but soon they started to look forward to that trip because it was so peaceful - they too were released from formalities, hellos, goodbyes, explanations, meaningless 'how are yous' and all other social conventions and expectations. They too ceased to speak while up there and began to cherish this place where they could just be.

One day, after several years without uttering a word, his two friends silently sitting near by, he slowly raised his eyes to consider them both very closely, and when they both were looking at him, he pointed to his own chest and said, "I'm happy" - and all three started crying. Once their eyes had dried, they all descended the hill together.