Science Makes God Unnecessary

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

In order to tell your experience you need concepts and words. And you also interpret your experience within a cultural or religious context.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Not everyone is experiencing the exact same, ...

That's important - there is is individuality and diversity within the One.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

or ''The One Source of all that is'', that is one interpretation.

Again - I am using words to express experience that is beyond mental concepts. Verbal language is limited. However there is far more that could be said even using mental concepts. The concept of in-division is important, for example, because it indicates that the One Source can in-divide to produce individual life streams that are unique and diverse yet still One for the Source does not split apart.

As you indicate - other individuals will use different expressions to articulate different interpretations of transcendental experiences and their cultural influences will play a part in that, just as they do in mine.
However the point is that there is reality beyond the physical universe - and a higher understanding of that reality is always possible.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Experience too, is constituted by concepts that are shaped by language.

Some experience is; but experience of pure formless awareness is also possible.

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

Yes, God is indeed not amused, as the Bible shows us, with the souls that He created giving them the full capacity to turn out honorable and who should honor Him always. Some turn out to blaspheme against Him however, and I know that you know that is correct. But God does not create people to become imperfect. Imperfection is something that unfortunately an individual brings upon him/her self molding themselves that way into that kind of person by their departure from God's Holy word in their life. He does not cause it. People indeed with their free will many times change as they find a more convenient way to live a more mundane life that is more sensually appealing to them than adhering to the strictness of living a decent Christian life as they know they should.

If God created all things, he created imperfection just as much as he created perfection, as well as the capacity within us for both. This means that God created the capacity within us to do things he doesn't want us to do. Yet if God did not desire for us to "depart from God's Holy Word", why did he create within us the capacity to do so?

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

God does not appreciate people who should know better but who go the other way, specifically those who apparently take advantage of their free will and who use it negatively instead of to honor Him. But He does give them that choice, however there are consequences for deviating from the spiritual laws of God. To simply say they wanted to do something that goes against God and His teachings and Spiritual Law just because they know they can, when something they're doing is wrong and they know it is, will get them the same thing they are sowing due to the Law of Cause and Effect or What You Sow You Will Also Reap. So, that is why it is very important to sow only good seeds, then you will reap the good crops from it! If you don't believe that, look no further than to what happened to Lucifer who also had free will but used it in disobedience to God.

And no, it is certainly not blackmail. Far from it. Why would anyone want to do harm to another or to the self knowing there is an alternate route they can take and do good that would actually help them spiritually as well? That is using their free will also as they should. Free will means that you cannot be stopped (usually) from doing something you want to do, but just like you cannot go into a bank and rob it and expect to get away scotfree without penalties or consequences, you cannot also go against spiritual law and expect that nothing would happen to you. I hope you now understand that while you can do whatever you please most times, the bottom line is in your individual choice of what you do that will either earn you a good reward or offer a reward for your capture!

I totally agree that there is a spiritual equivalent of Newton's Third Law, but that Law states that, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When applied to moral issues, we get what I call the Rule of Justice, that the "punishment should fit the crime", so to speak. The problem is that Christianity clashes with both of these ideas. According to your beliefs, a finite action (sin) can be followed by an infinite reaction (eternity in Hell). How can such a structure be just?

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

None taken. And what's so wrong with being good? And knowing as you do, that it will keep you out of 'eternal torment', wouldn't that give you enough food for thought and incentive to be good especially since what you do here will surely affect your future life in the world of spirit? However, your impression that God is somehow tyrannical in His rule is not correct. He gives each and every person the good opportunity to become a better person and to grow with Him. When people do not follow the right order as they know they should, they should expect consequences to their actions otherwise how could people learn from their mistakes to become better people.

Nothing's wrong with being good, and I never said that I thought that God was a tyrant. I just said that I find the Christian perception of God is tyrannical. My perception of the Divine is one that has no need to require certain actions out of us, that loves all and rejects none, and that never punishes.

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

We were not born into a perfect world where there is no sin. There is grave sin each and every day and knowing that there is, we should be moved to help those who are weak, due to their having used their free will inappropriately to make the wrong choices. Loving and caring people could sure help them discover their mistakes so that they can refrain from making them over and over again. People's own bad choices are the cause of much strain upon humanity. God stands ready to help people who genuinely want to change from their evil ways. But they have to want to do it, many don't and prefer the wayward life to one with God being in the center of it to help them become a better person.

Ahh, another place where we see things differently. I see the world as perfect. How, you may ask? Because I believe the purpose of life is self-definition; to decide who we are in comparison to our experiences, and to make choices based upon those decisions. Without things in this world which we choose to not-be, we cannot truly self-define. Thus that which we call "evil" exists so that we can choose "good". As for those who choose the "evil", do you really think that is how they see it? No one ever does anything "wrong", based upon their model of the world. It is only when we judge the actions of others that we discover things we call "evil". Of course, you know what the Bible says about judging.

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

You are very wrong in your assumption, dear friend, and nothing could be further from the truth in the way you are unfortunately seeing this. In fact, it is the direct opposite! It is because I want people to be Saved from going to Hell that I take all this time to discuss this serious matter with them. If you see it as "enjoyment" on my part then you are not looking at what is being said correctly and in the right context, and you need to understand that discussing spiritual matters in relation to God is extending a hand to those who may not know any better or may not have stopped to think clearly and who may indeed want to change but don't know how or where the consequences of their actions will eventually lead them. There are many who want to listen and many people have indeed been changed through the words of those who care about them and the Salvation of their soul, those who take the time to speak openly with them as is part of my ministry.

Well, let's look at the whole thing and try to get some context.

I, for one, would very much like to see the look on their faces as they square off with God upon their crossing from this life to the next and find out that He was, has always been, and will always be there! But boy will they find out! Oh, but that is not for me to witness since they will be going all alone by their lonesome to face the Truth. But still, if I could only see the expression on their faces for their lifetime of denial of the existence of God! And since they did not wish to know God, how do you think God would want to know them in their time of most need? It will be too little too late by then. In fact, much too late, but again, it would be ever so interesting yet so sad to see them tell Him to His face that they still deny Him! Oh, but to be there at that final moment to see what happens next!

Five times in one paragraph. So the question is, why do you want to see these people proven wrong so badly?

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

That is an interesting statement.You obviously said you left Christianity and you feel closeness and intimacy with the Divine (God) though perceive it differently, but the reality of it is to know that there is only One God as there is in the Holy Trinity, and here I will point to the First and Second Commandments of God, respectively, as to what God tells us is Divine. I assume that you also realize that without Jesus Christ it is not possible to attain Heaven if that is your goal and what you would want to do when your earthly life ends. And that is not just me saying that. It is in Scripture as I have pointed out many times before in discussions with others. Since to most all people that is the single most important thing to look forward to when their life here on earth ends, rather than risk going to another place, how do you feel about it or does it worry you that without giving your life to Jesus you will not be able to enter into Heaven?

Well, for the sake of simplicity, I will be blunt; I think Christianity is wrong. I think Yeshua ben Yosef was just a man, albeit an extraordinary one. I don't believe that Hell exists, because it makes no sense whatsoever to me. I believe that the point of life is to experience and to create ourselves as whatever we wish to be, rather than "attaining salvation". I believe that the Divine (which I refer to most often as the One or the Oneness) is in all things, not separate from me or from anything else. I don't believe in individual souls; instead I think there is One Soul in all things, and that, instead of "entering Heaven" when we die, we simply come to the realization of our Oneness with All That Is. I don't believe in sin because I think each person always does the best they can under all circumstances. And I certainly cannot believe in Biblical literalism; the Earth is not 6000 years old, one guy did not get two of every creature on the planet into a boat about 500 feet long (assuming a 20 inch cubit), and we are not all descended from a woman who got schnookered into eating an apple by a talking snake.

So, am I worried about getting into Heaven? Can't be, because I'm already there.

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

If one perceives a person as presenting a 'tirade', then they should logically examine their way of thinking to see why it would be so offensive or tiresome to them. In other words, does it 'hit home base' what is being said and they cannot stand that thus resort to calling it a 'tirade?"

No I call it a "tirade" because you are not here to discuss, you are here to preach. If doing so brings you joy, more power to you, but like the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you try discussing ideas instead of pronouncing viewpoints, you might get a better response from people.

CS

Originally Posted by Zeliar791

It is safe to say that without security any form of universal freedom is impossible. True freedom comes from stable circumstances.

But does the security need to come from external sources, or is that just a side-effect of our unevolved society? Basically, is it our nature to be peaceful or chaotic, in your opinion?

CS

Originally Posted by hybrid

yes. gravity has to originate from something, is it not?

but it if its always been gravity, does it mean it is also from gravity where intelligence and sentience came out? then what do you call a force with consciousness in it?
.

I guess Hawking is only talking about the physical universe. He doesn't claim anything about consciousness.

3dnow

[hybrid]

Originally Posted by 3dnow

I guess Hawking is only talking about the physical universe. He doesn't claim anything about consciousness.

3dnow

then imo, he has no business talking about god/creator.

.

Originally Posted by hybrid

then imo, he has no business talking about god/creator.

.

OK I'll tell him

3dnow

[Jyotir]

.


some pertinent quotes by Sri Aurobindo:

"The Atheist is God playing at hide & seek with Himself; but is the Theist any other? Well, perhaps; for he has seen the shadow of God and clutched at it."

"Logic is the worst enemy of Truth, as self-righteousness is the worst enemy of virtue, for the one cannot see its own errors nor the other its own imperfections."

"How many who have the religious faith and the religious temperament, are following the impulses of their heart, the cravings of their desire, the urgency of their senses, the dictates of their opinion when they fully imagine that their God is leading them! And they do well, for God is leading them. It is the way He has chosen for them, & since He has chosen it, it is the best & wisest & most fruitful way for them. Still it is their God - not one they have made in their own image as the Atheist believes, but One who makes Himself in the image that they prefer, the image that best suits with their nature or their development. "In whatever way men come to me, in that way I love & cleave to them." It is a saying of fathomless depth which contains the seed of the whole truth about God & religion."

Hello,


The whole issue of the thread seems to have its origins in the perception of "reality" as being a spiritual/material schism, from which the presumption is (speciously) derived that one or the other must be chosen, because neither side in their respective "argument" possesses the means from which to reconcile, resolve, and integrate the other. There is a subsequent conflict and stalemate in the discourse intellectually and energetically, which takes place both on a social level and internally in the lives of individuals.

On one "side" there are rational materialists and atheists presuming the exclusivity of physical existence and consequently performing their various investigations within the confines of that universe. Their physical measurements, comparisons and conclusions reasoned by rational scientific method, skepticism and logic proceed by a kind of script which is in operation actually and remarkably akin to the 'logic' of the scriptures of the other side, the so-called believers -- in terms of its shaping and circumscribing activity and perception. Both "sides" make provocative pronouncements and demands similarly constrained by their own respective sets of limitations - and mainly seeing those deficiencies of the other side, but not of their own.

The materialists are investigating and claiming laws through their authorities of revelation, with rigorous testing and systematic building on experience - of Natural law. The deists are also claiming Laws based on Divine Authority, but placing more emphasis on faith and a blind acceptance of that Authority towards far-off unseen salvations and rewards (or punishments!). Some of this might even sound plausible, but what about the practical implementation in the here and now? It seems that sacred texts and precepts - actual and functional as such - for each side, are just theory until they are put into practice and embodied...

Is it possible that both sides are investigating and evolving simply different aspects, portions, perspectives, ranges of expression and possibilities all from the ultimate set of Divinely Natural Laws - a ONE REALITY - - only seen through either Being or becoming at their extremes? One Absolute, and yet unknown, even unknowable - the other concretely 'known' yet relative and transitory, even undivine.

The establishment of rigorous real-world procedures for the testing of theory has been the purview par excellence of science as a means, which as a script for that 'real-world' can be anathema to those of (another) faith - believers, who for all their scripture quoting about God's Love, Compassion and Forgiveness (not to mention all the usual omni-stuff) - in 'real-life' often come off as simply mean-spirited inquisitors, bullies, oppressors of the human spirit and limiters of the illimitable Divine Spirit they tout - which in turn is anathema to so-called 'non-believers'. Hence impasse.

At the same time, the materialists in spite of all their rigor and systematically reasoned pursuit of truth, are apparently clueless and blinded by appearance -seemingly often never get to the point (no matter how small the particles or how big the infinities) where they intuit the possibility of some supra-physical unseen CAUSE that is creating, informing, supporting and transforming what appears to be the sole reality for them, in spite of a huge body of human experience indicating otherwise - that must be denied. More insurmountables.

Meanwhile, we see the best and brightest of each camp with a glimmer in their eyes, perhaps a dim reflection of the light (vs. mud, haha) from the other side. There are scientists, who in their open-mind/heart delving, eventually increasingly inspired, wax philosophically about the ineffable, mysterious and unfathomable beauty, complexity and consistency of Nature - the Creation; hinting that some Deity must be behind it All. And there are those (other) believers who likewise see through an open-mind/heart, the necessity of a more systematic, scientific and pragmatic approach to understanding, navigating and comprehensively integrating the process of becoming that Divinity, not only without sacrificing any faith, but using that very faith as a practical means for real abiding spiritual progress - and not simply as some rote adherence to a sterile dogma.

~ J

After following this thread, I have come to realize that there is a huge hole in Hawking's thinking. Mind you, I think Hawking is a brilliant guy, and I don't deny him any of the fame or anything else that he is due.

However, he has a rather huge problem. Even if he (and others) can explain how something (i.e. The Big Bang) came out of nothing, Hawking cannot explain where consciousness comes from, including his own.

If we actually look at the whole picture, let's say that everything did come out of nothing, and where we are is present time. In a very real sense, we are a consciousness that's walking around in a flesh and blood suit. We can attempt to explain how life originated, and we can see that evolution, in all probability, happened (and is still happening), but it does not logically follow that life would bring the kind of consciousness with it that we possess, a consciousness that looks for meaning and purpose.

The Shadow knows...

Originally Posted by CuriousSnowflake

No I call it a "tirade" because you are not here to discuss, you are here to preach. If doing so brings you joy, more power to you, but like the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you try discussing ideas instead of pronouncing viewpoints, you might get a better response from people.

CS

Unequivocally, you also certainly pronounce your viewpoints as well. I would have been glad to respond to your comments as I have in the past, however it is apparent that you have a great deal of intolerance for the Christian position that I use in my discussions. Therefore, continuing dialog with you appears to be an exercise in futility. Thank you for your time.

Have a very pleasant day!

Originally Posted by CuriousSnowflake

But does the security need to come from external sources, or is that just a side-effect of our unevolved society? Basically, is it our nature to be peaceful or chaotic, in your opinion?

CS

I think peace would be a good starting point. There cannot be any freedom in chaos, unless one forfeits any sense of self. In doing so a person would forfeit any responsibility for their actions, and would thus become nothing more then some savaged beast. This is the current status of today's society. People are degenerating internally in favor of superficial achievements. The freedom to experience things without any excessive sense of pressure from ones surroundings would be optimal. It isn't just because people are rigid, but also because there is not enough security for people to change their habits in today's society. It doesn't help that relationships are on a decline, and people are being pressured to survive on their own. It would appear that effective management of our societies is utterly lacking, and our resource acquisition is beyond our capacity to manage it effectively.