Anattā (no self)

Originally Posted by God-Like

25 years of meditation and self work might not be zen training in your eyes, but you wouldn't know what training I have had would you? How could you?

I have realized enough of my self and have realized what self and no self is / means / refers too.

All I have been pointing at is the need for self identification while living normal life experiences.

I have asked you to give me an example of such an experience if I remember correctly.

Have you an example for me?


x daz x

It's obvious as your writings and questions reveal.

Meditation and "self work" doesn't mean anything when it comes to Zen practice. Contrary to popular belief perhaps, Zen practice has quite a degree of specificity.

I have no interest in feeding the charade* as it won't go anywhere, and it's not meaningful for me either, approaches like this.

*As in the intellect can never understand - imagery - snake chasing its own tail

Originally Posted by Moondance

You’re missing (or perhaps you just don’t agree with) the essential point.

I think what is happening is Daz has mentated what no-self is - note he used the path of intellectually projecting/conceptualizing it FIRST.

He is then using his individual frame of reference (reached through cognation), to postulate that such a thing is not possible.

i.e. All arguments and discussions on this thread are moot - because it has already started in a sort of error.

Has any spiritual teacher ever taught someone to "imagine" "conceptualize" "posit" an ultimate state first through cognitive mind, and assume that is it?

No, because that is a key error, when trying to realize...imo.

With all respect to Daz's practice, in a Zen hall anyone showing up with a resume will be laughed out the hall - don't show them your understanding or intellect, show the teacher the truth.

This is why Zen is no course for dummies* either, imv.

JL

*easy, novice

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by God-Like

what's being missed is that everything self aware that is functioning in life as I have described has a sense of themselves as being this or that to certain degrees.

What if I am just sitting here alone in a quiet room not thinking? I know I am sitting here. It's self evident.
If I am not thinking at this moment, so I am non-verbal, nothing is here to define myself as this or that is there?
So I am here, aware I am here, and not identified with anything. I just am.

This kind of meditation and spiritual practice is over 5000 years old. It's pretty easy to do.
The hard part is to maintain it when our mind is reacting to external and internal stimulus.

It's like someone is asking you for an opinion about this or that. You say, well I have opinions,
but I'm not associating with them. I am just being, not identifying with ideas, thoughts, opinions,
beliefs. This room is empty and I am too.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

What if I am just sitting here alone in a quiet room not thinking? I know I am sitting here. It's self evident.
If I am not thinking at this moment, so I am non-verbal, nothing is here to define myself as this or that is there?
So I am here, aware I am here, and not identified with anything. I just am.

This kind of meditation and spiritual practice is over 5000 years old. It's pretty easy to do.
The hard part is to maintain it when our mind is reacting to external and internal stimulus.

It's like someone is asking you for an opinion about this or that. You say, well I have opinions,
but I'm not associating with them. I am just being, not identifying with ideas, thoughts, opinions,
beliefs. This room is empty and I am too.

' What if I am just sitting here alone in a quiet room not thinking? I know I am sitting here. It's self evident.
If I am not thinking at this moment, so I am non-verbal, nothing is here to define myself as this or that is there?
So I am here, aware I am here, and not identified with anything. I just am. '



From my experiences of your explanation above, I call this state ' Pure Awareness ' .
Awareness without consciousness, no thoughts are in my mind, I am just being...

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Your comments are circular because the belief in an essential-self runs so deep that another possibility cannot be comprehended on any level. This is when the mind must let go - at least for a while.

Just stop… and sit… and wait… and maybe it might dawn. Life is simply happening on its own - no one is doing it… IT is doing you.

But meanwhile, perhaps you are right, we may be too far apart for now. Nice to chat and I’ll see you around.

My comments are circular because there is nothing I have read by means of a reply that is addressing the key aspects. Every answer I have had is riddled with just more conceptual identifications and this in itself seems to be grossly overlooked..

I would like to know what is it that thinks up these concepts that explain the nature of self and this reality of mind.

If there is just some false self non entity present of the mind that makes tea and knows how to make tea, then it has to be the false self that supposedly knows how things actually are.

These are the things that don't make any sense to me when I speak to people that have these type of understandings.

You can't have a false / illusory self understanding the workings of the universe lol, it's bonkers.

It's on the same wavelength as peeps saying there is no-one here typing replies, it's not normal tbh and I get these conversations a lot, I am used to it and there is a pattern of behaviour which is playing itself out.

I have sat in meditation for 25 years lol, I don't need to sit and wait for anything to dawn, I have realized what I have so that I can speak about what I understand about the nature of self and mind .. (which is part of what zen meditation is about if janielee) cares to note.

There is a lot of speculation made about my state of awareness lol and what I need to do, which is baffling considering all I am doing is asking some very simple questions.

This is part of the behaviour that I see, janielee is playing her part by making these speculations about my approach and understandings without knowing anything about what I have experienced / realized.

It's foolish to speculate when I am right here willing to answer questions.



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by markings

Without having read through the many posts

There is no permanent, eternal, personal self (soul, etc)

There is a thought process, conscious and unconscious, which creates a self.
Thought processes are not stable and subject to continual change. When the thought processes die or end, so does the personal self which is a special process of personal reflection. It is special only in that it relates everything to this self and with that creates separation.

Who or what creates the thought of yourself?

Is there something that you are not that creates a thought of yourself?

When you make the tea is what you are making the tea or is it just an illusory thought form - entity - non entity making tea?

Is this thought form aware of itself? Conscious of itself, is it able to love and be loved?

Does being impermanent make what you are experiencing anymore less what you are?

When it rains for 5 minutes, is it anymore or less rain because it doesn't rain permanently?


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Does consciousness itself also carry knowledge? If it does, I can know how to make tea and be liberated from the human mind at the same time!

What is consciousness? Are you self conceptualising and identifying yourself as that? Who coined the word consciousness? Was it an illusory self, a false self, the same self that makes tea unidentified?

You see this is why as MD. put it to me that I am in circular mode because everything is going round and round . Everything is going round and round because there is this foundation of a self conceptual identity.

No-one has jumped off this gravy boat yet and yet people can't see it.

The finger is being pointed at me to sit and be still and that 25 years of self reflection / enquiry / meditation doesn't cut the mustard.

It seems as if peeps are not ready to see their own reflection when pointing, when speculation, when suggesting.

This is a pattern I have seen often.





x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by janielee

It's obvious as your writings and questions reveal.

Meditation and "self work" doesn't mean anything when it comes to Zen practice. Contrary to popular belief perhaps, Zen practice has quite a degree of specificity.

I have no interest in feeding the charade* as it won't go anywhere, and it's not meaningful for me either, approaches like this.

*As in the intellect can never understand - imagery - snake chasing its own tail

You have painted your own picture of me in regards to what you think I have or have not realized based upon my line of questioning.

A line of questioning that you haven't even answered.

Your welcome to keep up the charade by speculating on my behalf but you could not be more wrong, so it's your call.


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Rain95

What if I am just sitting here alone in a quiet room not thinking? I know I am sitting here. It's self evident.
If I am not thinking at this moment, so I am non-verbal, nothing is here to define myself as this or that is there?
So I am here, aware I am here, and not identified with anything. I just am.

This kind of meditation and spiritual practice is over 5000 years old. It's pretty easy to do.
The hard part is to maintain it when our mind is reacting to external and internal stimulus.

It's like someone is asking you for an opinion about this or that. You say, well I have opinions,
but I'm not associating with them. I am just being, not identifying with ideas, thoughts, opinions,
beliefs. This room is empty and I am too.

You already have a sense of yourself prior to sitting alone in a room.

You already have a sense of yourself that can engage in a 5000 year old meditation practice lol, you already know the conceptual relations regarding what you are and what meditation can do for you.

When I had my realization there was no room, no self awareness, there was no mind, no world, no universe.

If you are aware of yourself and your surroundings there is a sense that it is you that is sitting.

This is why I stand by what I say and by my line of questioning.

I mentioned to Gem earlier about certain states, trance states, non functional states where the self identification is at is minimum, perhaps I AM awareness is all that identifies oneself as at such a time, but I have been speaking about ordinary life experiences like making tea which is not the same as being blissed out in some non functioning state.

I have kept to my original context here in regards to self identity being present while engaging in this world.

As of yet I haven't heard anything that refutes such a statement.

M.D. has the impression of a false self running around without explaining the relationship between what you are and this thought of oneself.

Is it the false self thinking it's a false self or is the real self identifying that the real self is experiencing a false self..

This is why the dreamer is not outside the dream, it feels like to me there are dreamers trying to convince me they are outside of the dream ..

There is no real explanation at all.




x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by sky123

' What if I am just sitting here alone in a quiet room not thinking? I know I am sitting here. It's self evident.
If I am not thinking at this moment, so I am non-verbal, nothing is here to define myself as this or that is there?
So I am here, aware I am here, and not identified with anything. I just am. '



From my experiences of your explanation above, I call this state ' Pure Awareness ' .
Awareness without consciousness, no thoughts are in my mind, I am just being...

Can you make tea in a pure awareness state without a thought for tea or of yourself?


x daz x