Meditation, some answers

Hello to all,

Just bringing a different perspective on this concentration thing in meditation.

In tarot the 16 minors cards represent all the possible ways the four worlds of the Tree of Life may relate to each other .

Concentration or Intensity would only be the Prince of Wands or in other words how the Mind relates to Spirit or in other words Air relates to Fire.

In the Tree of Life, the most stable configuration of those four Worlds, is said to be the Queen of Wands also called Sharing on some tarot decks. Representing how Water relates to Fire or Intuition relates to Spirit.

Enjoy!

Antoine

[BigJohn]

If a person concentrates on something, how will they ever quiet their mind?
But then, some seem to be saying we shouldn't quiet the mind.

This might explain why some experienes certain things and other experiences, in some cases the opposite.

For example, for me, when I mediate time 'disappears', problems do not exist, th desire to eat, etc. disappears whereas others seem to battle all kinds of problems.

[BigJohn]

If a person had to do a task nobody had been able to do, would meditating by concentration or mediating by quieting the mind, help bring about the answers?

As an example:
Edison, at his winter Lab, would sit in a rocking chair and hold some weights in each hand as he rocked back and forth in his chair.
When the weights would fell from his hands, some of the answers would come to him.

Is this an example of concentration, example of quieting the mind or is it something else?

Originally Posted by BigJohn

If a person concentrates on something, how will they ever quiet their mind?

Mind can only focus on one thing at a time. Problem is concentration is scattered so it's easily distracted. By constant practice of single-pointed concentration mind becomes more familiar with that concentrated and focused state and it requires less and less effort until in theory it requires absolutely zero effort.

Samadhi in essence is single-pointedness of mind to the extreme.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Mind can only focus on one thing at a time. Problem is concentration is scattered so it's easily distracted. By constant practice of single-pointed concentration mind becomes more familiar with that concentrated and focused state and it requires less and less effort until in theory it requires absolutely zero effort.

Samadhi in essence is single-pointedness of mind to the extreme.

Well said Just A Simple Guy,

Yet mind is just one aspect of our Spyche.

Zinnat took the example of the blind monks touching an elephant and describing what they feel.

Feeling the Absolute with the Mind is just an aspect of our Psyche feeling the elephant.

Enjoy!

Antoine

[BigJohn]

Are you saying, if a person concentrates on one thing, a blind person has the possibly to 'see' an elephant just like a blind person who quiets their mind, might be able to see an elephant?
In these cases, it appears, the end results are the same.

Which route is more effective?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

a blind person has the possibly to 'see' an elephant.

The story is about 5 blind people who touch the elephant. One describes what the tail is like, one describes what the leg is like and the others also describe the part they touched. None of them know what the whole elephant is like. I think it's kinda like saying concentration is it when there's a few different aspects that together make up the 'whole thing'. Buddhists summarise that into 3 aspects: morality; concentration and; wisdom - and say each one of these aspects enhance the other 2.

Some Buddhists take that as knowledge when the discursive structure is really quite meaningless, but if you do the meditation for a while, the penny drops as it becomes meaningful in your own experience, and see how it works.

This implies what works in nature is the same for everyone, and to be sure, when a teacher instructs different things that directly contradict, their inconsistency indicates that they only felt part of the elephant and are trying to convince you what they know is the whole animal.

It's tempting to reduce the nuances to knowledge because uncertainty is uncomfortable and the known is all we have to cling to. Hence the 5 blind guys take-to-be true what they already found out by feeling part of the elephant, but can't agree with each other about what the elephant is like.

[HITESH SHAH]

While quieting mind is useful especially for constantly chattering /wandering mind , it is not the only thing meditation may do or require .

Meditation does require some effort / concentration which can help us advance the path of spirituality ie which is to separate the unwanted from wanted ,refining the meaning of wanted , seeing through and through something , feeling the totality of something , knowing something beyond , sensing what lies underneath . All these requires good effort and tremendous love for the thing . The reason we need more effort / concentration is that our natural focus area are different . e.g. if i love money , all things about money / currency / investments / stocks / crypto etc come very easy to me .
Due to this in real life meditation really stops at being quiet to stay away from vagaries of our interests in life . That is ok and big achievement for such seekers . However as shared earlier , it is constant effort to define/refine and practice the meaning of life . And that takes good time/effort/love/interest.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Ramakrishna's mind was concentrated on Kali. Seriously concentrated whether sitting, singing, ceremony/ritual often to the total distraction of his surroundings.
He was fanatical in his single-minded devotion.

What you posted is my understanding as well. In a previous post, I alluded to the fact that "single-minded devotion" (as in the case of Ramakrishna) could be considered to be a form of concentration but not exactly in the same sense as dharana (concentration) in Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras.

On a related note, I am wondering if you have watched the movie on Ramakrishna. The main actor, Kanu Banerji, actually looks like Ramakrishna. I loved the movie and it's available on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD1TsRBZnn8&t=3378s

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 1174 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Mind can only focus on one thing at a time.
By constant practice of single-pointed concentration mind becomes more familiar with that concentrated and focused state and it requires less and less effort until in theory it requires absolutely zero effort.

It took me a long time during my formative years to realize that "mind can only focus on one thing at a time". As mental activity slows down, one can observe thoughts arising and falling ... with that awesOMe space between thoughts.

My mother did not meditate but she was extremely absorbed in the Roman Catholic Rosary practice. Eventually, she noticed that the words slowed down to such an extent that there was a space ... an awesOMe silence between the words ... that was supremely peaceful. Her attention then shifted from the words to that silent peaceful space ... and, eventually, she was able to enter that state effortlessly in that manner.

I experienced the same thing with my mantra. I discovered exactly what you mentioned in your post (while changing one word ): " By constant practice of single-pointed concentration mind becomes more familiar with that concentrated and focused state and it requires less and less effort until in REALITY it requires absolutely zero effort."