Religious or Spiritual?

[Baile]

Originally Posted by ScarlettHayden

Just that enlightened people are more towards one end than the other.

What's happening in new age forums is it's becoming vogue to not have an opinion one way or the other. That way one is always right, everyone is equally enlightened, my religion is the same as your spirituality, etc. and so forth. People don't care to penetrate too deeply into these questions is why I guess.

[norseman]

Enlightened - knowing what it is that you don't know.
Unenlightened - not knowing what it is that you don't know.

or, to put it another way :

Enlightened - knowing that this reality is based on uncertainty and subjectivity and accepting the reality of Probability in assessing what is known and unknown.
Unenlightened - "knowing" that this reality is based on single finite answers to infinite questions. Everything seen as objective/measurable. Not knowing that you do not know about this.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by norseman

Enlightened - knowing what it is that you don't know.
Unenlightened - not knowing what it is that you don't know.

That's pretty darn good, I just might steal that.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by norseman

Enlightened - knowing that this reality is based on uncertainty and subjectivity and accepting the reality of Probability in assessing what is known and unknown.
Unenlightened - "knowing" that this reality is based on single finite answers to infinite questions. Everything seen as objective/measurable. Not knowing that you do not know about this.

Don't forget the difference between understanding and not understanding universal laws: absolute versus relative truth for example.

[Wagner]

Originally Posted by Baile

An enlightened master consciously working with etheric and astral energy can manipulate spirit matter, manifest physical objects seemingly out of thin air, appear in two places at once, etc. I certainly can't do that.

Above-mentioned master = enlightened
Me = not so enlightened by a long shot.

It is apparent that you and I have vastly different ideas as to what constitutes 'enlightenment'. To me one's enlightenment is directly proportionate to the degree of selflessness attained; i.e. to what lengths one has gone to dissolve the sense of self into the All [godhead]. This is affected, in my humble opinion of course, through the revealing or uncovering of the divine aspect of man which is, and always has been, in us from the very start of our lives.

Perhaps you can share with me the quiddities which define "spirit matter" as in opposition to ordinary, physical matter? And materializing things "seemingly out of thin air" seems like a neat parlor trick, but to what end does that provide any fruitful venture on the course of enlightenment? How can such an act benefit someone in any but a hubristic manner?

Peace and much love to you. :)

[Wagner]

Originally Posted by LadyTerra

Good morning Baile!

This caught my attention...I believe you are referring to a High Adept and they are rare.

I have known ordinary people who consider themselves to be "enlightened" and even go around referring to themselves & each other as "Gods".

Have you run across people like this? IMHO...this type of reasoning misleads some into imagining that they are better than others and (in some cases) even leads to practices that exclude those who are deemed to be unworthy--or as I have heard them say--"Not one of us!".

What are your thoughts?

Greetings, LadyTerra. :)

I am curious as to which order or tradition might label such individuals "High Adept"?

For what it is worth, the types of people you describe who are condescending towards others in such a manner have fallen far short of the mark in regards to spiritual endeavors. At least I could do not but assume so!!

Peace. :)

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Wagner

And materializing things "seemingly out of thin air" seems like a neat parlor trick, but to what end does that provide any fruitful venture on the course of enlightenment? How can such an act benefit someone in any but a hubristic manner?

You could ask Jesus, he did that: walked on water, turned water to wine, etc. Is Jesus hubristic? Is your understanding vastly different than mine? Is enlightenment about selflessness? What happens next in our growth journey after we've attained selflessness? Or is that all we're striving towards?

Isn't everything spirit matter? Even science understands that physical matter isn't matter at all, it's atoms and mostly empty space. My communicating to you is spirit speaking to spirit. There is nothing that is not spirit. Our vastly different ideas are both spirit.

My position with any question is always this: I know what I know. And when I resonate with a new truth, I then know that as well. But if something feels to me like a parlor trick and hubris, it means I'm really not connected to that truth. That's all it means. I don't need to compare it to other truths because the fact that it doesn't resonate means it's not my truth. I avoid a lot of intellectual conversation and arguing that way which I find pointless and tiring.

[Wagner]

Originally Posted by Baile

You could ask Jesus, he did that: walked on water, turned water to wine, etc. Is Jesus hubristic? Is your understanding vastly different than mine? Is enlightenment about selflessness?

Isn't everything spirit matter? Even science understands that physical matter isn't matter at all, it's atoms and mostly empty space. My communicating to you is spirit speaking to spirit. There is nothing that is not spirit. Our vastly different ideas are both spirit.

My position with any question is always this: I know what I know. And when I resonate with a new truth, I then know that as well. But if something feels to me like a parlor trick and hubris, it means I'm really not connected to that truth. That's all it means. I don't need to compare it to other truths because the fact that it doesn't resonate means it's not my truth. I avoid a lot of intellectual conversation and arguing that way which I find pointless and tiring.

However, "walking on water" and "turning water into wine" is not at all the same thing as manifesting matter out of nothing. But my lack of manners has caused me to digress....

In what way do you connect "spirit matter" with the atomic nature of physical matter? I only ask because you seem to have made such a link...

I apologize if I was at all rude in trying to initiate discussion on what is, for all intent and purpose, a discussion forum. You must find my discourse "pointless and tiring" indeed! ;)

Peace to you.

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Baile

What's happening in new age forums is it's becoming vogue to not have an opinion one way or the other. That way one is always right, everyone is equally enlightened, my religion is the same as your spirituality, etc. and so forth. People don't care to penetrate too deeply into these questions is why I guess.

Well it's a good thing we're not New Agers, isn't it?

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Wagner

I apologize if I was at all rude in trying to initiate discussion on what is, for all intent and purpose, a discussion forum. You must find my discourse "pointless and tiring" indeed! ;)

I find all discussion that is presented in an open and non-judgmental manner to be invigorating and sometimes even revelatory. Sarcasm I don't resonate with.