The false self

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

That's what you think I think, it's not what I think. Which you yourself don't embody.

So you do think, the universe, including yourself is perfect and harmonious, when you said the universe is not perfect and harmonious, which one is it? How is it that I do not embody oneness/non-duality etc?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The true nature of the universe, and everything in the universe is perfect and harmonious, What make the universe and everything in the universe to falsely appear to not be perfect and harmonious is that our not perfect and non harmonious false nature ...judging and thinking the universe and everything in the universe is not perfect and harmonious. The only thing that is not perfect and harmonious in the universe is our false nature, which is artificial and superficial ...

Surely if everything in the universe is perfect and harmonious then that includes our so-called false nature.

Stating that our false nature is not harmonious and perfect seems to be a judgement by our false nature thinking that not everything in the universe is harmonious and perfect.

And yet this judgement is itself also harmonious and perfect.

If the cause is perfect then the effects cannot be imperfect.

Peace

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Surely if everything in the universe is perfect and harmonious then that includes our so-called false nature. If the cause is perfect then the effects cannot be imperfect.

That is an abstract concept that compares one thing to the opposite of that thing, in this case the perfect harmonious universe to our false nature and misses the point comepletely. so once again, oneness does not have any opposites, the abstract concepts/ideas of opposites create the opposites. How can our false nature be perfect and harmonious, when our false nature is the cause of disorder, chaos, pain and suffering and etc and like you said, the cause is perfect then the effects cannot be imperfect.

The perfect harmonious universe is not the cause of our false nature, the mind that compares, analyzes, evaluates, separates itself from the perfect harmonious universe is the cause of our false nature. The mind identifies with or has a relationship with what it compares, analyzes, evaluates, separates etc etc.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

How can our false nature be perfect and harmonious, when our false nature is the cause of disorder, chaos, pain and suffering and etc and like you said, the cause is perfect then the effects cannot be imperfect.

once you start separating this from that you're moving further away, not further toward... I get a lot of mileage out of realizing that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a false nature, and neither is there anything wrong with disorder, chaos, pain and suffering, and etc... in fact the fact of it existing despite our every desire for it not to is just more proof of how perfectly harmonious this place is. It has room even for things we dislike!

speaking of which, simply speaking in terms of 'like' and 'dislike' is making a big separation. Again, it is a step away, not a step toward...

[Rishi27]

It is not about perfect oneness, with the world around us. If we seek for the world to be enlightened, we miss the point. It is about the self, being in perfect tune, soo that what ever happens, we are untouched by it. Refraining from anger and disillusion, and that we are separate from anything.

[mary isaak]

Thank you very much Greenslade! Your answers always make so much sense.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Spirituality can be a response to a lack of self esteem or an opportunity to express something inside...

This is exactly my case. I came to spirituality because everything else was painful. But as soon as things get better (socially/professionally), I forget about spirituality and go back to my old life.

[mary isaak]

Thank you Greenslade! I will look at the Triplex Unity

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Non-Duality - 'this' vs non-Duality 'that' is the mind's Dualistic response to resolve a paradox that it created by creating another paradox.

Sorry i could not get the idea expressed here

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The perfect harmonious universe is not the cause of our false nature, the mind that compares, analyzes, evaluates, separates itself from the perfect harmonious universe is the cause of our false nature. The mind identifies with or has a relationship with what it compares, analyzes, evaluates, separates etc etc.

So are you saying that the mind, the supposed cause of our false nature, is something separate from the perfect harmonious universe?

Or is the mind also part of the perfect harmonious universe? And all the apparent imperfections of form are in fact perfect (but limited) expressions of the greater Perfection? And over time these apparent imperfections of form evolve to become greater expressions of the greater Perfection?

Peace

Originally Posted by MikeS80

So you do think, the universe, including yourself is perfect and harmonious, when you said the universe is not perfect and harmonious, which one is it?

'Perfect' isn't a word I use and since there's only been 100 years of peace on the planet, 'harmonious isn't a word I'd use either. I'm a realist, not an ideologist. The Universe is the way it is because we've made it that way.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

How is it that I do not embody oneness/non-duality etc?

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The only thing that is not perfect and harmonious in the universe is our false nature, which is artificial and superficial ...

People have reasons for the words they use so what is so wrong with our 'false' nature? It's very real to so many people and since Brahman is everything, our 'false' nature is also Brahman. Unless you're going to contradict yourself. Use of the words 'true' or 'false' isn't non-duality. If there was not inharmonious there would be no harmonious, there would be simply what IS. If there was not imperfection there would be no perfection, there would be just what IS. Both perfection and harmonious imply their respective opposites.

And sometimes, when people use terms like 'true' and 'false' nature they tend to not like themselves very much. If you want to really understand, look to your reasons.
The cosmos is an entropic system and the only time it was 'perfect order' was the moment of the Big Bang. Spirituality is an entropic system, we've come a long way from the understanding of the Rig Vedas, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita and the like and 'evolution' isn't it.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

once you start separating this from that you're moving further away, not further toward... I get a lot of mileage out of realizing that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a false nature, and neither is there anything wrong with disorder, chaos, pain and suffering, and etc...

I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with our false nature and with disorder, chaos, pain and suffering, and etc because we can learn from them.