Is anyone here familiar with the Baha'i Faith?

[sky]

Originally Posted by Altair

That would be extreme asceticism. However, an inadequate diet can still be presented as ''middle path''. If one only eats rice, fruit and a bit of dairy than one has an inadequate diet. Following such a diet for years in a monastery means one's mind deteriorates. ''Middle Path'' sounds clever, but details are necessary. I'm sure in India one can have protein deficiency ((since it's the norm there, so it's ''normal'')) and isolate for weeks and claim to be ''normal''. That is their context, but it's not one of proper health.

What is inadequate for you maybe enough for others, everyone is different...
I suggest you do some research on what the ' Middle Path ' means in Buddhism...

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

As we are going far from SW's original Post I'll leave it at that. We do have a Buddhist Section...

Actually, this is not going far from my original post because I too was wondering whether Baha'u'llah was really an "inspired Messenger of God" based strictly on his teachings/preachings. How does one know if these "messengers" are actually having mystical experiences or hallucinations induced by sensory deprivation of some nature?

I am reading this dialogue with great interest as it is very much in keeping with my questions regarding the Baha'i faith in particular and mystical "God experiences" in general.

I LOVE this dialogue. (I was away for a short time due to other pressing matters, but I absolutely love what I am reading here now that I am back. You covered a lot of territory in a very short time.)

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Altair

It merely serves as one example, as does Bashu'alla.

People who founded or inspired spiritual traditions pushed their bodies to the extreme, had an ''experience'', not too dissimilar to patients or prisoners. In one context we accept their ''authority'' and enchant them with an aura of ''knowingness'' and ''god'', whereas in another we don't. It has profound implications for a conversation on spirituality, as it places the ''guru'' at the same level of insight as the patient and the prisoner. It demystifies the mystic.

The founder of the Baha'i Faith is one such example.

Those are excellent points and are most assuredly worthy of discussion.

Too many people are taken as an "authority" when perhaps they are not. Using other examples to make your point is certainly valid. That is the way I approach things too --- various examples lead me to a consistent consensus.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

Are you being Sarcastic because if you are I can still separate you from your actions

Me? Sarcastic? How can you even think that?

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Actually, this is not going far from my original post because I too was wondering whether Baha'u'llah was really an "inspired Messenger of God" based strictly on his teachings/preachings. How does one know if these "messengers" are actually having mystical experiences or hallucinations induced by sensory deprivation of some nature?

I am reading this dialogue with great interest as it is very much in keeping with my questions regarding the Baha'i faith in particular and mystical "God experiences" in general.

I LOVE this dialogue. (I was away for a short time due to other pressing matters, but I absolutely love what I am reading here now that I am back. You covered a lot of territory in a very short time.)

We will never know if His messages come from God or from Hallucinations but we can say this about all Scriptures and does it really matter, if their intent is ' Wholesome ' then everything is good, if they deliberately act to gain power over the body and mind of others then that's a different story.

As I said previously not all Hallucinations are easy to explain and most certainly do not always happen through inadequate diet. I like a Mystery it leaves my Mind open to alternative reasons

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Me? Sarcastic? How can you even think that?

I didn't think it, it was my thoughts which are little entities than come Uninvited.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

But not all are on the exact page, some do have Mystical Experiences due to their lifestyles. You pointed out yourself that the Israelites had a balanced diet but they had many Mystical Experiences as documented in biblical scriptures.

I know people who live a perfectly balanced lifestyle and have Mystical Experiences and two unfortunate Anorexics who have none.

One style doesn't fit all so unless you personally know a person you cannot say for sure. Hallucinations are not always mystical there are many reasons people's have them as with NDE's. Everyone is different.

You can't say that everyone documented in the bible including Jesus had Hallucinations but it's possible due to the Hemp they used

You mention the Israelites and their mystical experiences but many of those can also be questioned --- particularly some of the pronouncements in Leviticus. As Altair indicated, we somehow add an aura of "authority" to pronouncements that might not be "divine".

For instance, take the Babylonian Captivity which is well documented in the literature of the Israelites. There were many "prophets" urging King Zedekiah to count on Egyptian support and not give in to the Babylonians. Jeremias alone stood up against those "prophets" but was not believed. As it turned out, Jeremias was the only true "prophet" and his words of warning materialized into reality. Since the consequences were so dire and the prophecies were so much in variance, it is clear that some who were accepted as prophets at that time were obviously WRONG.

How many others were similarly wrong?

Altair is raising some very good points and, although we seem to be deviating from the original topic, these points are all related to the question of how can one tell if a messenger/prophet is inspired or just having an hallucination that may be induced by sensory deprivation or may just be delusional.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

Everything comes from the mind

Define "mind".

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

We will never know if His messages come from God or from Hallucinations but we can say this about all Scriptures and does it really matter, if their intent is ' Wholesome ' then everything is good, if they deliberately act to gain power over the body and mind of others then that's a different story.

As I said previously not all Hallucinations are easy to explain and most certainly do not always happen through inadequate diet. I like a Mystery it leaves my Mind open to alternative reasons

Your introduction of the word "wholeness" is leading into a deeper discussion on the nature of God (consciousness) and the "Wholeness".

There can be so called "mystical" hallucinations induced by inadequate diet but I also agree that there can be delusions/hallucinations that are not induced by inadequate diet.

I recently participated in an online Science-Religion-Philosophy class and one of the essay questions revolved around determining how one can determine the Truth of what one is told (either by a person or a book) if one does NOT have direct validating experiences for one's self.

This thread is addressing this point not only specifically in reference to the Baha'i faith but more generally in reference to ALL those who claim to be messengers attuned to "God". This applies equally to those who claim to have channeled information from guides --- as one can raise similar questions regarding whether those guides are having hallucinations of their own or whether they are attuned to the "Wholeness".

Originally Posted by sky123

Everything comes from the mind

sky123,

Perhaps.....:) But what informs the mind ? Isn't it simply experiences from the external world ? Can the spirit which we assume to be external to the world inform the mind ? Having read many NDE accounts we learn that many people are declared brain dead....yet when they revive they are able to relate verifiable experiences. With a dead brain how can this be possible ? Isn't the brain the processor for what we call the mind ? I just do not know if we can legitimately and truthfully say that everything comes from the mind.....