Anattā (no self)

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

This is an overview of the energy practices of Tibetan Buddhism as compared to the more well known Indian tantric path. For people interested in energy it may be interesting to compare the Buddhist path to the one you might be on. I personally believe a specific path leads to its own specific result, though perhaps some people believe that all roads lead to Rome. In this case the Buddhist energy practice leads to the generation of a spirit (illusory) body, and Buddhahood.

Did you notice how your post was ignored?

Lot's of similarities but also some important differences that go along with the practices that does change the end results as you have said.

There are a number of important differences to Indian (Shakta) Tantra [beyond the number of chakras] as well. In Indian tantra one starts form the base chakra and progresses up. In Tibetan tantra one starts from the head, which is the "lowest" level of consciousness (body, waking consciousness, wrathful deities), and progresses down to the heart, which is the highest level of consciousness.

With Indian Tantra the kundalini is awakened through specific breathing practices and yoga-postures. The prana or vital-force of the subtle body is thus manipulated through the breath and the physical body; through an extension of Hatha yoga which, the reader will recall, was associated from the beginning with Indian Tantra. In contrast, Vajrayana practice involves manipulating the vital force through the mind and concentration. Through intense visualisation of deities and so on, one activates the inner "winds" (= prana = ch'i) and "drops".

Instead of the Kundalini-Shakti or "Serpent Fire" of Shakta Tantrism, Vajrayana has the Tumo (literally "fierce woman"). Through intense visualisation of deities and concentration upon the "lower tip" (the minor chakra at the tip of the sex-organ), the winds (prana) are drawn into the lower opening of the central channel (sushumna), producing an intense heat, called tumo [Daniel Cozort, Highest Yoga Tantra, p.71]. In her fascinating book, Magic and Mystery in Tibet Alexandra David-Neel popularised stories of Tibetan yogis drying icy sheets with their naked bodies outside in the middle of winter. That is a showy exhibition of tumo. Real tumo of course is the tantric meditation itself.

As a result of the tumo-heat, the drops melt and enter the central channel. The red "female" drops in the navel chakra ascends to the heart chakra, while the white drops in the crown chakra descend to the same chakra. The bliss of the drops flowing in the central channel is said to be a hundred times greater than that of orgasm [p.71]. The drops, moving up or down the central channel, finally enter the "indestructable drop" in the heart chakra, so called because it is said to be drop that passes from life-time to life-time, taking with it the "very subtle mind" and "very subtle wind" [p.72].

The entire visualisation or meditation stage itself is called the stage of Generation, as its purpose of is to construct or generate an actual enlightenment or buddha-body, the stage of Completion. The result of all this is that one rises in an "illusory body", so called because it is a spirit body rather than a physical body, and at death, rather than be caught up by the bardo and reincarnation, one remains in full consciousness in the illusory body, so attaining Buddhahood.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Buddhism/Vajrayana.htm
There are a number of important differences to Indian (Shakta) Tantra [beyond the number of chakras] as well. In Indian tantra one starts form the base chakra and progresses up. In Tibetan tantra one starts from the head, which is the "lowest" level of consciousness (body, waking consciousness, wrathful deities), and progresses down to the heart, which is the highest level of consciousness.

With Indian Tantra the kundalini is awakened through specific breathing practices and yoga-postures. The prana or vital-force of the subtle body is thus manipulated through the breath and the physical body; through an extension of Hatha yoga which, the reader will recall, was associated from the beginning with Indian Tantra. In contrast, Vajrayana practice involves manipulating the vital force through the mind and concentration. Through intense visualisation of deities and so on, one activates the inner "winds" (= prana = ch'i) and "drops".

Instead of the Kundalini-Shakti or "Serpent Fire" of Shakta Tantrism, Vajrayana has the Tumo (literally "fierce woman"). Through intense visualisation of deities and concentration upon the "lower tip" (the minor chakra at the tip of the sex-organ), the winds (prana) are drawn into the lower opening of the central channel (sushumna), producing an intense heat, called tumo [Daniel Cozort, Highest Yoga Tantra, p.71]. In her fascinating book, Magic and Mystery in Tibet Alexandra David-Neel popularised stories of Tibetan yogis drying icy sheets with their naked bodies outside in the middle of winter. That is a showy exhibition of tumo. Real tumo of course is the tantric meditation itself.

As a result of the tumo-heat, the drops melt and enter the central channel. The red "female" drops in the navel chakra ascends to the heart chakra, while the white drops in the crown chakra descend to the same chakra. The bliss of the drops flowing in the central channel is said to be a hundred times greater than that of orgasm [p.71]. The drops, moving up or down the central channel, finally enter the "indestructable drop" in the heart chakra, so called because it is said to be drop that passes from life-time to life-time, taking with it the "very subtle mind" and "very subtle wind" [p.72].

The entire visualisation or meditation stage itself is called the stage of Generation, as its purpose of is to construct or generate an actual enlightenment or buddha-body, the stage of Completion. The result of all this is that one rises in an "illusory body", so called because it is a spirit body rather than a physical body, and at death, rather than be caught up by the bardo and reincarnation, one remains in full consciousness in the illusory body, so attaining Buddhahood.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Buddhism/Vajrayana.htm

Does, chakras, energy drops, bliss, does that sound like someone is an energy junkie from running or doing some physical exercise that they need the rush for?

[jonesboy]

Here is a link to a book called The Secret of the Vajra World, The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet.

http://www.khamkoo.com/uploads/9/0/0...m_of_tibet.pdf

Now, we can argue about things or we can all open a good book and read it and discuss it like adults.

For those following the thread you will also see the same things written here as was written in the earlier threads.

I have presented many books in this thread already that we can read and see what it says.

Only one person so far has bothered to look.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sentient

I just started reading the book and so far I’m loving it!

Sheeesh, thank you Jonesboy for the link!



How true lol.

*

Here is a great book from Bon Dzogchen.

Healing with Form, Energy and Light. The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism, Tantra and Dzogchen by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.

http://promienie.net/images/dharma/b...-and-light.pdf

This book is way more esoteric than the others i have posted as you can imagine.

I think you will really like it, please let me know what you think.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Mindfulness, lovingkindness, equanimity are all an result of energy and silence or even stages.

Mindfulness is when one has realized a little bit of silence and are able to observe their thoughts. In or out of meditation. With increased silence one is able to realize that those thoughts are flows of energy.

Resting in the flows brings clarity or as you named it equanimity.

Loving Kindness is also a result of clarity as it is often understood. In Buddhism Compassion comes from the realization of the void.

While you think energy is just a little thing, the tantra teachings understand that everything, your body, the desk, the world is all energy. That consciousness is has 3 aspects. Void, Clarity and Energy.

Buddhism is non dual, based on the view expressed by many of the members in this thread. How do you get to non dual with mindfulness? You don't.. mindfulness is a stage in ones practice.

Hello Jonesboy - I can generally agree with what you say. These are true observations, based on our experiences.

But they are also not the sum total of mindfulness, nor of manifest authentic love as lovingkindness and equanimity. Mainly, because at a certain point, clarity and awareness are not separate from conscious choice and ownership.

That is, energy is what we are. Consciousness is what we are. Ultimately these things are different aspects of the One thing. I would also say authentic love is what we are, which we strive to consciously realise and hone energy and consciousness further.

But the conscious choice to do and be and practice mindfulness and to manifest lovingkindness and equanimity is not down just to energy or energy work. It is not just down to clarity or insight. It is also down to conscious choice and ownership in the moment.

Of course, it is all connected in infinite ways of great beauty and meaning.
I am saying these are all a part of it. Energy and mindfulness, etc. All of this can be subsumed or included under authentic love, ultimately, IMO. Which we realise and apprehend as best we can.

I haven't read these many pages but are you saying that as well? You may well have been and it's just I haven't got through it all. Because IMO...no matter what else, manifesting lovingkindness from a place of equanimity (centre) is down to us and to our choices in each and every moment.

Working at being mindful is a stage, yes perhaps - I can see what you mean. But as I see it, choosing to be mindful is a way of being. True, being mindful may be second nature at some point (but let's not get ahead of ourselves ). However, that's only because we have chosen to do so at each moment and fully integrated that choice.

What are your thoughts on what I've mentioned here? I want to be sure I take you correctly and get a solid baseline for further discussion.

I also hope I have been able to respect and represent your thoughts meaningfully and also contribute some additional aspects to the discussion.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by django

I've been following this conversation which has been interesting, and have been doing my own research on 'standard' Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. I wonder if the issue is the way in which energy is being addressed. Is it that there is a Buddhist way, and there is a 'seeking an energy high' way.

In Tibetan Buddhism Vajrayana (the energy path) is usually practised after the realisations of renunciation, bodhicitta and emptiness.

In the non-Buddhist way people seek out positive energy shifts and surges via intensive yoga or other forms of physical exertion to induce them, or energy manipulation methods derived from qi gong or other systems. They may use drugs or other artificial methods. In effect, they get high on energy, and, over time, are likely to experience many of the problems normally associated with addiction, which is antithetical to Buddhism. Maybe they feel like they can never get enough energy, so the Buddhist aim is never realised.

Hello Django, yes that's exactly what I mentioned to Jonesboy, in that the ways of the mystic are usually only for the intiates because of the too frequent tendency for these methods to be abused or used to misdirect, without the proper perspective and background.

This is not just common to Buddhism and mysticism in Buddhism, but to nearly (if not all) mystical practice in (or outside of) any tradition.

It does have to do with the issue of craving and aversion, which Gem has already mentioned. And with the focus of the individual. It's a subtle thing because many think, I'm not a reader or I'm not a thinker, so I go this way and not that way.

But we're all self-aware sentient beings -- so it's not a question of innate abilities, just preferences...and frankly, that's neither a true barrier or any real excuse. I can be handy with energy but that doesn't mean working on manifesting lovingkindness is for schmucks coz hey I can't be bothered with mindfulness or engaging. No, if I slack off there, then that's just an excuse I've use to indulge in some of my own misdirection.

After all, the most fundamental teachings of any tradition have nothing to do with book study...nor for the insights or skills of the mystic -- profound as they may be.
They simply call for integrity, self-awareness, and self-honesty. For manifesting lovingkindness, social justice, equanimity, and so forth, in our day-to-day lives...i.e., in each moment.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by janielee

Here's the actual teaching. You seem to have picked up the bad habit of taking teachings and quotes out of context as well.

I'd enjoy discussing actual teachings or my actual posts with you if you want to so feel free to quote something I have actually said or posted and we can debate or discuss it.

As far as the rest of your post, I can see my true nature, we all can, and it is not difficult. The difficulty is in depth and how often lol. So yes then according to what you posted, I then am my own teacher and the only one I need. We agree on that!

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by janielee

Only one person in a million becomes enlightened ...

A person has never become enlightened, when the person ceased to exist, enlightenment was there.

If I did my math right, 7 billion humans alive now, that would be 7,000 enlightened now around the globe according to your claim of 1 in a million? But yea non-sense aside, I assume you are using a very specific definition of that word "enlightenment" and I would point out it has an obvious logic flaw in it.

You are projecting you and me can become enlightened when really what we are now cannot. Enlightenment defined and used one way is nothing more than an awareness and realization of our true nature, and what we are now does not include this full awareness or realization, so you and me, cannot ever, even in a zillion years, become enlightened. It is impossible. What we are must change, and if it is fundamentally and structurally changed, then the new is born. We don't become it, something else is it!

If you put lemon juice into a glass of water, it does not become lemon juice. Also, the clear water is no longer clear, it takes on the nature of the lemon. Likewise, when we discard that which is not us, when we recognize it for what it is and so it becomes non-phenomenal, we take on the nature of the source or our true nature. "We," the glass of plain water, did not "become" plain water and lemon juice, once the lemon juice is added, the nature of plain water is gone. The plain water no longer exists. What that thing is in the glass is no longer plain water. So when someone thinks, "I will become enlightened," that is wrong understanding. What you are now will no longer exist. There will no longer be an awareness that identifies with their conceptual interpretative content as self.

The true nature is here now, fully, complete. Enlightenment is not getting something you don't already have. See that's the key....what you think you are is not what you are. So we are choosing to not be enlightened.... we have made a choice to be a person, an ego, a thought centered consciousness.... then this thought centered being seeks enlightenment. Yea you will never succeed. The ego cannot enter into that subtle and "holy" place. So as an ego, with desires, and goals, and judgments, saying they will one day find this enlightenment, no they will not. Enlightenment ends the ego, full stop, done. It ceases to exist.

When we use the concept of "becoming" to denote changing this into that, we are visualizing an object, not ourselves, not consciousness. Consciousness is not an object. So yea we can say.... the water became lemonaide and we get what that "means." We added stuff to the water... lemon juice and sugar.....

But see "enlightenment" is not adding seeing to not seeing. The not seeing ends.

Maybe this is a better metaphor to understand it, one gets a pot and in it they put white rice, a lot of spices, like chili powder, salt etc, a bunch of water and maybe an onion and a glove of garlic too. Then they let it boil, then simmer until the water is all gone. When all the ingredients were in that pot, the spanish rice was there, as a potential experience, as a potential manifested reality. But it did not show itself until the water had all evaporated away. That "water" was the ego in the pot, the "person." The water cannot become the spanish rice. When the water is gone, the spanish rice is there.

It's not that the true nature is not always here, the question is what it is here "as." The spanish rice was always in that filled pot, but until the water was gone, simmered away, it was not projected or manifested or experienced. That's another thing.... the water will never experience the spanish rice! In fact, it is preventing it from coming into being.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello Jonesboy - I can generally agree with what you say. These are true observations, based on our experiences.

But they are also not the sum total of mindfulness, nor of manifest authentic love as lovingkindness and equanimity. Mainly, because at a certain point, clarity and awareness are not separate from conscious choice and ownership.

That is, energy is what we are. Consciousness is what we are. Ultimately these things are different aspects of the One thing. I would also say authentic love is what we are, which we strive to consciously realise and hone energy and consciousness further.

But the conscious choice to do and be and practice mindfulness and to manifest lovingkindness and equanimity is not down just to energy or energy work. It is not just down to clarity or insight. It is also down to conscious choice and ownership in the moment.

Of course, it is all connected in infinite ways of great beauty and meaning.
I am saying these are all a part of it. Energy and mindfulness, etc. All of this can be subsumed or included under authentic love, ultimately, IMO. Which we realise and apprehend as best we can.

I haven't read these many pages but are you saying that as well? You may well have been and it's just I haven't got through it all. Because IMO...no matter what else, manifesting lovingkindness from a place of equanimity (centre) is down to us and to our choices in each and every moment.

Working at being mindful is a stage, yes perhaps - I can see what you mean. But as I see it, choosing to be mindful is a way of being. True, being mindful may be second nature at some point (but let's not get ahead of ourselves ). However, that's only because we have chosen to do so at each moment and fully integrated that choice.

What are your thoughts on what I've mentioned here? I want to be sure I take you correctly and get a solid baseline for further discussion.

I also hope I have been able to respect and represent your thoughts meaningfully and also contribute some additional aspects to the discussion.

Peace & blessings
7L

What does Clarity mean to you?

Also, I agree that choosing to do the practice, to stay mindful means your are doing and haven't realized being. It is all a practice until then no matter what practices you do.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes. Equanimity is the absence of that dynamic of craving and aversion.

Hello Gem and thanks so much for your thoughts.

It's a good thing, equanimity, and we generally recognise we have too little of it.

But in fact for long-time practitioners (of meditation, of mindfulness, of consciously walking our paths), it is possible IMO to be imbalanced on the side of equanimity. And it feels pretty strange, especially living there for months and years. In the sense that we are not fully grounded or engaged because we truly have no preference, or very little preference. So there is a balance between equanimity and lovingkindness that seems to be required in order to remain grounded, centred, and thus balanced. It is not even-steven. It is shifting, in proportion or relation to where we are on the equanimity "spectrum".

The interesting thing (one of them) is noting that some of our preferences (akin to cravings or aversions, in some sense) are due to past lives, and not just from this life...and yet they have also shaped who we have become in this moment. This is really such a much longer term horizon we're dealing with.

I don't follow any tradition. I simply studied Buddhist meditation in the formal sense. People from all kinds of traditions, religions, backgrounds, including atheists come to learn the art. We have no interest in conversions and other forms of ritual. Our principles are the enlightenment in you, the laws of nature and harmonious social cohesion. Our virtues are truthfulness, kindness, compassion, generosity and metta. These are universal - not sectarian - it regards all human beings.

In Buddhist thinking, aversion and desire are not thought of as two different things. In English, 'craving' pertains to 'what you want' only. But in the Pali language craving (tanha) pertains to the dynamic tension between aversion and desire. Where there is desire there is also aversion, and vice versa. That dynamic is 'craving'.

So...as I touched on above, some prefs or cravings seem healthy and necessary (for truth, for balance, for groundedness, for wholeness and integrity). Some do not. And some may be neutral or unimportant.

I can clearly recognise my desire for wholeness and to manifest lovingkindness as healthy and sustainable and good (aligned). I also recognise I need to encourage that last in myself a bit more, but I realise it now because lovingkindness is able to flow and I need to allow it to do so freely. When equanimity is involved, there is (interestingly) always an aspect of conscious choice involved. As equanimity guides us (strongly) toward authentic love of self equally to others.

Because equanimity is so powerful...the most powerful force of all...we have to allow or make a space for lovingkindness, to live in wholeness and balance. Existence itself does not require lovingkindness, rather only the force of expansion necessary to maintain equilibrium against the force of contraction. Equanimity can manage this in itself, though for many it is hard-won. But humanity require lovingkindness at centre to address the wholeness, integrity, and balance of the heart centre. Lovingkindness at centre is much more fragile, ultimately, in that we must consciously make a space for it, perhaps especially once we live from a place of equanimity. This realisation IMO brings a fundamental perspective to the moment.

In the practice, it's truth. We need not desire because the truth is 'as it is'. We have a tremendous ardency for the truth, so our pursuit ends and we investigate 'what is' very deeply, particularly the truth of ourselves. Old wounds and accumulation of 'sankara' or 'obstacles' are not artifacts of aversion, but true of ourselves and can not be denied, and the meditation enables us to become conscious of all this, all habitual destructiveness, the whole way we generate our misery, and we become keenly acute to the slightest of our reactions that distract and disturb the fine and delicate balance of mind - precisely as you say - It's 'recognising that balance where equanimity is seated'.

I think what I've also been noticing is that lovingkindness is the other required element to remain balanced or to be and do equanimity from centre, in a way that is sustainable and good (aligned) for humanity. That is, I've noticed this for myself but also don't see my observations as being anything special or unique just to me

That craving people have for what is being called energy is equal to the the aversion they have to what is called obstacles, and they do not know that their volition generates sankara rather than extinguishes sankara, and all our lives we have been reacting in craving in aversion generating a massive pile of sankaras. Then we realise, so this is what I've been doing all my life, and we stop - craving ceases, volition ends, and the generation of sankara is over. We have stopped craving resisting clinging avoiding pursuing and so on, so the old sankara are 'let free' and they start to rise from the shadows into the light of conscious awareness, where the pass away. The old pile is now passing away, and no longer is anything new being added. Like you stop adding new wood to a fire, and the old wood burns away. In this way all the old sankara eventually expire. But one has to be strong in their equanimity to withstand the clearing process because it's resolving deepest wounds. Hence one cultivates that equalibrium of equanimity, for the degree of purification depends on that stable balance.

Yes very true. We have to be strong. Despite everything, I don't strongly dislike my father and I have freely forgiven him as needed and let go as needed. I accept what is, including him as he is. But TBH, I do have compassion but he can be very nasty and I know I have to keep my wits about me. I do maintain a generally neutral aspect but it can wear on me internally, because his mode is attack mode and I have to courteously deflect and de-escalate constantly. I have maintained regular visits and contact...not too often, LOL. I recognise it's a limitation all round and over time, I have moved into an easier space with lovingkindness that provides a bit of balm and adds to the compassion.

Personally, I do not suggest metta practice until the wellspring of love begins to bubble up... Until then stick with the mindful cultivation of equanimity both in formal meditation practice and also with every and all experiences of daily life. Every moment is opportunity to valuable to be wasted. Keep balance, let emotion be the way it wants to be, but recognise reactivity that disturbs your presence of mind. It's an important distinction I'm making, because emotion in itself isn't disturbing - one can be a still centre in a severe emotional storm - but it's the reaction, you see, to be adverse to a rough emotion or to crave another kind of emotion... and by just being there and leaving it to be as it is... well, all that arises soon passes and there's no way around that truth.

That will enable purification, not faster because you feel craving and want more, but at the pace which nature has it (which can be faster than you'd like)... you are merely aware... nature works its own way... and when the metta arises in the heart area, then you can't not radiate loving kindness.

Ok, it's bound to be very difficult - the most arduous of all things... but it is so clear within oneself that it is 'right', and again, by being completely truthful, you can't not do it.

I agree with this, mostly because when you are deeply shattered, equanimity is all that you have and you simply can't force or be anything else. Nor can you even hold anything else.

I am at the place where I can hold the emotion (long past) and I am not experiencing a strong aversion to it...this took several years more recently, to get past the aversion. The lovingkindness is present and I am able to be present with it once more without fear/aversion. It's been sitting there a while and now I realise it's safe to make more space for it at centre. It is a long process, as you say, particularly if trauma of some kind has been involved. It was rather brutal and harsh getting this far. But the good part is that I had near total freedom to completely reassemble myself at centre. The same, but different.

Again, the thing I've noticed is that even if metta is rising in your heart and you do radiate lovingkindness -- because it is expansive and healing to all -- nonetheless, there is still awareness and choice involved, when we are firmly centred in equanimity. We still must choose, on some level, to allow the lovingkindness to be, and to make a place for it at centre. In what I have also called the circle of belonging, but in its most personal sense.

Well, I'm a little extreme, so when people meditate and they are doing anything - visualising, controlling breath, mantra, or other self-generated activity, I'm like, OK, stop doing that and be aware of 'what is'. That's really what I think, but I don't mean it as advice or anything.

Yes...all aspects are important. It is always important to simply be aware of what is...that is our ultimate lamp on the path. I find I go back and forth all the time, sometimes to re-focus of course, but also to intentionally centre in what is alongside whatever else.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by Rain95

A person has never become enlightened, when the person ceased to exist, enlightenment was there.

Dear Rain95,

You cannot accept Bodhidharma when he agrees with you, and deny him when you do not.

Your mind is a highly intellectual one, and I understand your predilection and way of seeing, but it is clear to me where you really reside.

Peace,

JL