Various Pantheons

Hello,

What are your thoughts regarding non-western European gods and goddesses (Aztec, Mayan, Hindu, African, Egyptian) being incorporated into Wicca a western European religion? Should the gods and goddesses specifically from the Celtic, Norse, Greek, Roman be the only set of pantheons to be honored in Wicca?

What do you think from a non-European point of view - do you disapprove with Wiccans use any of the pantheons that originate in your culture, whether you're Indian, Egyptian, American Indigenous, African?

Quills Quiver

[norseman]

Makes wicca look a bit of a joke to use a pik-n-mix approach to deities ! However, given that all deities are based on Yin-Yang or Masculine-Feminine principles, it matters little what you call them. Personally, I honour Gaia.

Hello norseman,

Originally Posted by norseman

Makes wicca look a bit of a joke to use a pik-n-mix approach to deities ! However, given that all deities are based on Yin-Yang or Masculine-Feminine principles, it matters little what you call them. Personally, I honour Gaia.

I personally believe each gods and goddesses has their own set of qualities to distinguish who they are.

Quills Quiver

[Jenny Crow]

When Gardner first gave birth to his tradition of Wicca, the god of that tradition was Cernunnos, also known as The Horned God and a moon goddess often referred to as Aradia. Covens descending from Gardner's covens and solitary practitioners have honoured those deities down through the years but also have called on other deities from the Celtic, Roman and Greek etc. pantheons. But all in all, the cultures from which these deities sprang were not so very different.

However, it's my belief that if you start "working" with gods such as the Aztec and Mayan deities, you're going to be dealing with a very different entity/energy than any of the usual Western deities. Aztec beiefs and Wiccan beliefs arise from very different backgrounds and there are many contradictions to consider.

Many Wiccans and neo-pagans consider that all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess. However, the Aztec religion was/is definitely polytheistic - all the gods are considered separate entities.

One of the tenets of today's neo-Wicca is 'An it harm none......" This sort of thinking is a far cry from the bloodthirsty, human sacrificing Aztecs - I really don't think that modern day Wiccans could accept that, so why would a Wiccan want to have dealings with an Aztec deity?

African deities such as Legba, Chango and Oshun are also connected to a very different culture than what the Wiccan gods/goddesses spring from, why would a Wiccan want to incorporate these entities into their Wiccan tradition? If a person wanted to "get to know" these entities then they would be better of studying Hoodoo and Vodoun, etc. (IMHO)

As for the Egyptian gods and goddesses they are a little different. Isis is a Mother Goddess who is so well loved in many places of the world and I believe she has crossed over the cultural barrier.

I don't know much at all about Hindu deities but again, they stem from a very different culture.

I think trying to incorporate deities from an ancient religion that has pretty much nothing in common with the European traditions would be doing a disservice to both religions.

Hello Jenny Crow,

Originally Posted by Jenny Crow

When Gardner first gave birth to his tradition of Wicca, the god of that tradition was Cernunnos, also known as The Horned God and a moon goddess often referred to as Aradia. Covens descending from Gardner's covens and solitary practitioners have honoured those deities down through the years but also have called on other deities from the Celtic, Roman and Greek etc. pantheons. But all in all, the cultures from which these deities sprang were not so very different.

However, it's my belief that if you start "working" with gods such as the Aztec and Mayan deities, you're going to be dealing with a very different entity/energy than any of the usual Western deities. Aztec beiefs and Wiccan beliefs arise from very different backgrounds and there are many contradictions to consider.

Many Wiccans and neo-pagans consider that all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess. However, the Aztec religion was/is definitely polytheistic - all the gods are considered separate entities.

One of the tenets of today's neo-Wicca is 'An it harm none......" This sort of thinking is a far cry from the bloodthirsty, human sacrificing Aztecs - I really don't think that modern day Wiccans could accept that, so why would a Wiccan want to have dealings with an Aztec deity?

African deities such as Legba, Chango and Oshun are also connected to a very different culture than what the Wiccan gods/goddesses spring from, why would a Wiccan want to incorporate these entities into their Wiccan tradition? If a person wanted to "get to know" these entities then they would be better of studying Hoodoo and Vodoun, etc. (IMHO)

As for the Egyptian gods and goddesses they are a little different. Isis is a Mother Goddess who is so well loved in many places of the world and I believe she has crossed over the cultural barrier.

I don't know much at all about Hindu deities but again, they stem from a very different culture.

I think trying to incorporate deities from an ancient religion that has pretty much nothing in common with the European traditions would be doing a disservice to both religions.

If all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess why do many choose to name their God and Goddess from any of the western European pantheons (Roman, Greek, Celtic, Norse) that resonates with the practitioner? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of having all gods and goddesses infix into one God and Goddess? Sounds like these gods and goddesses are not so much a like after all, but different.

Why do you think the Egyptian pantheon has crossed over the cultural barrier? Is it possible for other non-western European pantheons except Egypt to cross this cultural barrier? Also, how are the Egyptians gods and goddesses related to the western European pantheons? You mentioned that all of the European pantheons have a similar culture which they sprang up making them closely similar. The Egyptians are a different culture from the western European world.

Why do many incorporate non-western European deities into Wicca? Is this cultural appropriation to some extend? Why is the Egyptian pantheon an exception to incorporate into Wicca?

Quill Quiver

[norseman]

Egyptian deities are popular probably because of the wealth of associated lore attached. Jenny and I are in agreement that all masculine deities are one, as are all feminine deities. This duality is yin-yang which represents the prime driver of the universe, often referred to in wicca as the Lord and Lady.
Personally, I am not interested in deities as such but Gaia is something different - I can see Her, touch Her, feel Her, taste Her etc. She provides my food, drink, air to breath. Many hold this belief and Lovelock then provided the proof of Her existance, Gaia is the only one where there is scientific evidence. The Belief in Gaia is slowly changing into a factual entity - belief no longer required, She just is !

[DavidMcCann]

As a Hellenic pagan reconstructionist, I find this close to cultural appropriation. No traditional pagan religion ever considered all goddesses to be aspects of one goddess. No traditional pagan religion ever considered any goddess to manifest as a maiden, mother, and crone. To take gods and goddesses from European paganism, just as much as from non-European ones, and shoehorn them into alien categories is not respectful.

Even the expression "working with" a deity grates on my ears. As Ronald Hutton wrote, "No ancient goddess or god worth the name could be summoned by worshipers to a particular place and there employed."

[Jenny Crow]

I like your post David McCann

And yes, "working with" grates on my ears, too. I know my Goddess doesn't "work" with me per se, she gives me signals, sets fire to my intuition but I don't invite her to my circle to "employ" her, lol. I wouldn't be that disrespectful

And yes, again, I don't know about ALL the traditions but the Celts had not goddesses that were considered "maiden, mother and crone" - this is strictly modern Wiccan ideology. As well, the old Witchcraft doesn't have any triple goddesses. They do have the two sides of the Bucca, though, Bucca Dhu and Bucca Gwydion.

I think this concept of all goddesses being one goddess stems from many Wiccans believing that there is an overarching (is that a word?) deity who can only be known by anthropomorphizing this deity into different "aspects". This doesn't work for me though, I am truly polytheistic.

Hello Jenny Crow,

Originally Posted by Jenny Crow

I like your post David McCann

And yes, "working with" grates on my ears, too. I know my Goddess doesn't "work" with me per se, she gives me signals, sets fire to my intuition but I don't invite her to my circle to "employ" her, lol. I wouldn't be that disrespectful

And yes, again, I don't know about ALL the traditions but the Celts had not goddesses that were considered "maiden, mother and crone" - this is strictly modern Wiccan ideology. As well, the old Witchcraft doesn't have any triple goddesses. They do have the two sides of the Bucca, though, Bucca Dhu and Bucca Gwydion.

I think this concept of all goddesses being one goddess stems from many Wiccans believing that there is an overarching (is that a word?) deity who can only be known by anthropomorphizing this deity into different "aspects". This doesn't work for me though, I am truly polytheistic.

I often wondered that myself. Is this where the "Nameless One" or "The One" comes from? I wonder how this "deity" looks like instead of honoring one of the heads of a Hydra (metaphorically speaking) if that's how many Wiccans see it. I don't like this concept. I would like more information regarding this if possible.

Quills Quiver

[DavidMcCann]

Originally Posted by Jenny Crow

I think this concept of all goddesses being one goddess stems from many Wiccans believing that there is an overarching (is that a word?) deity who can only be known by anthropomorphizing this deity into different "aspects". This doesn't work for me though, I am truly polytheistic.

This comes from Gardner's background. When he was a young man, everyone in Britain interested in occult matters knew the Theosophists and Hinduism and got a dose of Indian advaita philosophy: the belief in a single supreme being. Then in the 30s Dion Fortune was a big name in occult circles, with her idea of "polarity" as a fundamental property of the universe: hence the need for a balance of goddess and god.

Like you, I'm a polytheist. People experience gods and goddesses -- lots of them. To say they're all actually experiencing just two is a bit like the Christians saying they actually experiencing just one!