Sun Bear, Swift Deer and other controversy

Hi. I was referred to someone who does some shamanic healing work by someone I trust and was told this man is the real deal and is quite good.

I found out that at least some of his training came from a man named Sun Bear, aka Vincent Laduke, who has a rather controversial reputation. I'm not one to believe things I read on the internet just because they are there, but I'm curious what anyone else here might know about him and about some other things I'll mention.

A couple of years ago, I found a woman in my area who does "shamanic counseling". She was very nice, charged very little, and seemed quite genuine. She told me that her tradition came mostly from a man named Harley "Swift Deer" Reagan. When I went home and researched Reagan, I found out through some thorough research that he has lied and scammed about a number of things. I even tried to contact him at his home office or what not, and he refused to speak to me and everybody acted very strange about the situation. I then contacted the "shamanic counselor" who I was working with to ask her about it, and she got very quickly defensive and wouldn't explain or talk about anything.

The accusations against Sun Bear are much less substantiated than with Harley Reagan, plus I was referred to him(the man taught by him) by someone who knows him well and is someone I trust.

As I've progressed in my spiritual study and practice, I've come to realize that just because a person does some highly scandalous things does not especially mean that there isn't some very valuable spiritual insight there too, but I'm very conflicted about the whole thing.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? It's been troubling to me to find how much scandal and fakery there is in the world of spirituality and healing, and I'm having trouble sorting it out.

Wow... I don't know Harley, but from a little bit of searching, it appears he's a liar, if not a pathalogical liar. Someone who lies to further his own reputation doesn't seem authentic or spiritual.

Thank you for your response.

I would say, first of all, that you do have to be careful just doing a little bit of searching online. Sometimes the people who go "outside the box" get a lot of trouble for it, even people making up lies about them.

I do believe that Harley is, or at least was, a liar and con artist, as I did some pretty extensive research a couple of years ago when I learned about him, but the thing is...

There have been some pretty shady people in history who have gone on to do great things, be great spiritual leaders, and offer insightful wisdom to those who would look past their indiscretions...as far as I can tell anyway - but that's part of where my conflict lies.

I have been studying Theosophy, and some of its predecessors and offshoots. There is a lot in their texts that makes a lot of sense to me and also fits in with a lot of other well respected systems I've studied. However, Madame Blavatsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society, was supposedly involved in a number of lies and scandals. Other people related to the Society were also involved in scandals as well, but there are others who came out of it to become well known as great philosophers, spiritual leaders, etc.

So I guess I have a few questions for the people on this forum...

Does anyone know of Sun Bear and have verifiable evidence about some of the accusations against him(or proof that the accusations are not true), or a personal experience with him or the Bear Tribe that says there really is something real to his teachings? Or any other unbiased opinions about him or his teaching?

Second, what are people's opinions in general about situations like these? Do you think someone can be a liar and still have extensive wisdom to impart? What are your opinions about the development of "psychic" abilities and healing abilities in comparison with the level of moral character in a person?

There is an opinion about 'plastic shamans' like Sun Bear and so on, where some native americans feel their heritage is being sold to outsiders for monetary gain. Others feel it is time for these teachings to be shared and even more so these days, as elders speak from their hearts.

A person may have wisdom and knowledge but personal integrity and honesty come into play when they take a teaching/sharing path. Along the line, they will be tempted by ego-trips and monetary gain and that's the danger point, where the lines of truth become muddied. It is very true that you should judge a person by their actions, not by their words.

I've seen quite a few spiritual teachers fall into this pit and it's a very fine line to walk. I think when there are accusations of trickery, etc, often it's because the person concerned feels under pressure to 'produce' and human fraility takes them into places they once would never go. Morality is not always a good guide... it depends what morality they practice and are influenced by. A person can be very 'moral' and totally closed to unconditional love, for example.

I would forget about Sun Bear and focus on the person you were referred to... even a bad teacher can produce some excellent students.

I personally have nothing against a Mystic or Shaman accepting money in exchange for information, though I myself do not engage is that activity.

For me it is the issue of accepting something that should be proverbially rendered to Ceasar rather than God. I do trade in cases where spiritual counseling is needed. As an example a person who approached me many years ago had a very serious spiritual problem, he also had a background in Physics. So I accepted him tutoring me in Physics in exchange for my addressing his problem.

I also feel that if one gives a person a fish he or she eats for a day. But one teaches them to fish they eat for a life time. Learning to understand your own unique access to the Spirit World pretty much resolves many of the common problems, some often visit Shamans and Mystics for.

Any thoughts?

Hi - Saw your question about SwiftDeer, and wanted to chime in.

I've known SwiftDeer for about 10 years, and have worked fairly closely with him in some areas for the last few of those. I've also seen the stuff on the internet about him. Now, I can't prove that some of the things out there are wrong - for example, the Bullshido piece "proving" that his military and martial arts claims are all false - but I can tell you that I've been part of his dojo for several years, and he KNOWS martial arts. And, when black belts from other disciplines come visit his dojo, they respect him. I can also tell you from personal experience that some of the things you will find on the "plastic shaman" sites - about things that happen in Deer Tribe workshops, for example - are blatantly false. It's incredibly easy to make claims and assertions on the internet, and very hard to disprove them.

Sorry to hear about your experience calling his office - but if you led with something like "prove to me that you're not a liar", it's not surprising. He doesn't care about conciliating people. (The advantage of that is, he just doesn't put any effort into seducing you out of your money. He's less like a guru, and more like a cantankerous anti-guru.)

Chances are, if you focus on the question of who on the internet is telling the truth about him, you'll never be able to find "the" answer. However, if you have the opportunity to check out some of the teachings that he's put out, that could tell you what you need to know.

Thank you, everyone. Sorry I haven't had a chance to respond. It's been a long week, but I'll get back to you all ASAP.

PLEASE NOTE: To anyone casually reading this thread - I'm not sure about any specifics regarding Sun Bear or even Swift Deer, and if the accusations are wrong, I don't wish to further the bad talk. Research for yourself if you're curious.

ENYA - I really like what you had to say. It's definitely a very fine line and I've seen a lot of people fall into the ego trap. It's really troubling to me as this field(spiritual healing, metaphysics, etc.) has enough trouble earning respect as it is, and I agree that when someone enters a teaching path, or any path where they are looked up to in this field, they really have a responsibility to maintain a strong integrity.

If the controversy is only about charging money for these teachings, I don't have a problem with that if it's done in a reasonable way. My big problem is the supposed lying and criminal acts. As the remarks about Sun Bear are much less substantiated than Swift Deer and could easily be made up, I will not spread them, but he's been accused of some pretty bad crimes that have nothing to do with the teachings.

I also agree that even a bad teacher can produce a good student, so I'll have to work that part out. I've just been really disillusioned by a number of people lately who are supposedly very respected in their field of healing or spiritual teaching.

TRIAD - I was a little confused by part of your post. I do agree with and understand the "teach them to fish" metaphor. Although I don't have a full time practice yet, whenever I have worked with people I always give them lots of tools to use at home and teach as much as I can of how to resolve problems on their own. I'm appalled by any healer or teacher who holds back for the purpose of keeping them coming back to keep paying.

It's the Caesar/God metaphor I don't understand. I mean I get the proverb, but I'm not sure how it applies here. I think it's great when a healer is able to offer free healings, but a lot of healers train for a number of years just like other professions and don't have any other income. They need to make a living like anyone else, and if they were to work a different job and do healing on the side, they wouldn't be able to help as many people. An additional comment here - I don't much buy into the "Energy Exchange" concept that many modern healers use to explain why they charge for services. I really doubt if Jesus or any other great "free" healers throughout history were less effective because there was no monetary "Energy Exchange". But I do think it's perfectly reasonable to charge too. Also, shamans, wise women, witches, etc. were often paid by their tribe or village with food, services, etc. so that they could have their mundane needs taken care of and be able to focus on their craft. I don't see any difference in that and a healer getting paid with money nowadays so they can focus on their craft instead of working another job.

Also, I guess I'm also not one to believe in the idea that a healer should discount all personal skill and only give credit to God. I realize that(in my personal belief system anyway) we are all a part of God and so in a bigger sense, the latter is true. However, unless a healer was just born with a tremendous skill they never had to work for, healers often train very hard for a long time to gain their abilities. They put in a lot of time and both physical and mental effort into what they're doing. This is a fine line because I do believe healers, ESPECIALLY healers, should be very humble about their work and should always work to clear themselves of any arrogance, high horses, judgment of others, etc., I do not feel that they should just negate the hard work and effort they put into their training. Nobody would expect a chiropractor or a neurosurgeon or a dentist to say that ALL their skill or effective treatments comes ONLY from God, would they? So why is it different when the healing involves very technical skills with subtle energy?

Just my thoughts. Would love to hear any other opinions or responses...

WOMANINTHEWORLD - I want you to know first of all that I'm not saying Swift Deer is a bad person, nor am I saying that his teachings are false or not useful. I honestly don't know either way. What I have seen of some of his teachings(which is only a little), does seem to be consistent with other reliable things I've read. However, this does not especially prove to me one way or another because anyone can easily read and learn a system and then pass off the teachings as their own. I'm not saying he's doing this, just pointing out both sides.

The biggest thing that troubles me are the allegedly false military claims. Although I can't say with 100% certainty, I did some pretty thorough research back then and I'm pretty sure he really did lie. Putting aside any issue of our government(that's a whole other story), I'm a huge supporter of the individual military personnel who risk their lives and I find it appalling and insulting to the people who really are or were there, for someone to lie about that(especially to further their own reputation). Also, I get the concept of not having to prove yourself to people, but from what I've seen he's talked in various media about the controversies around him, so why not take 5 minutes to produce some photo or scanned document to prove his military claims? OR if they were lies to begin with and yet he is "the real deal", then why not just admit to it, apologize, and move on? Everybody makes mistakes, but that's the key to me. I can respect someone even if they did something awful if they just own up to it and move on, but it doesn't seem very "real deal" to me to just ignore it.

Also, when I called his office, I did not just say "prove you aren't lying". I had made no decision at that point and I courteously told them I was interested in his teaching, but some of the things I read had troubled me and I was wondering if they had any information about the situation. I don't remember exactly what they said, but I remember getting a bunch of shady responses and just having a "bad feeling" about the whole thing. I realize a "bad feeling" is not proof of anything, so I can't really debate on that aspect.

I'm still not 100% on any of it, and I'm perfectly open to hearing someone give me some shred of evidence about something that would be SOOOOO simple to prove. Until then, I think he likely has some good teachings, but I can't abide having anything to do with that situation.

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Any other comments or responses are welcome. I'm very interested in the phenomena of various people throughout history who essentially seem to be very spiritual and good while also being very morally dubious at the same time. Depending on what you believe, does God or Jesus, or the Ascended Masters, or angels, or spirit guides any other "higher beings" for good, so to speak - do they really bless, appear to, and teach people who later are found to have committed some terrible moral crime(major lies, sexual or violent crimes, etc.)? or did the crimes really not happen in these cases? or is the spirituality the hoax? or is it something in between?

Thoughts?

In my native american heritage, true elders and medicine people follow the sacred laws and traditions. When searching for a mentor or a healer you must use your intuition and follow what your heart knows.

A true and honest first nations teacher, guide or mentor, can either be an elder who has followed the traditional path, or an old medicine healer who has followed the correct traditional path - no one else, not even an individual who has the life path to heal is allowed to heal before they have completed their steps in their life journey, and completed many, sacred traditions. It takes years of ceremonial rites, traditions, and of following his/her spiritual path, to obtain that title, there are set traditions an elder or medicine barer must follow through to be respected as true. I will not say what those things are.

This new age term of ego, is not the least of what you have to worry about when indulging with a powerful individual who practices bad medicine, or who has addict energies, there is nothing good to come from learning sacred native traditions from someone who has not completed their path fully.

I will say this, someone who truly follows the native way, will not ask for money, if they ask for anything, it would be a sacred offering to spirit, paying for spiritual practices goes against the traditions. Spirit does not ask for money. A real elder will also not go by the term "shaman", it is not the correct traditional term, and was never used in the past referring to native american people.

A real native american medicine person has no ego, as they have completed their spiritual work and are now of service to spirit. There are many of us young ones who try to find faster ways to become healers, as we are inpatient, and this creates a world of bad healers. A real healer will never offer healing until they are healed themselves, and it takes walking along the sacred road for a very long time in order to be fully healed. Some people think it is okay to just cleanse themselves, temporarily when doing healing work if they are not healed themselves. But a real healer will not take that risk.
A medicine person will never push their beliefs onto anyone. When you talk to them, it is often annoying how well they follow that ;) they will not tell you anything unless you ask, and even then, the forms of their advice make you think for yourself, because their role is to guide you, not preach or push it onto you, but to help you find your own experiences yourself. They will not advertise or preach. It would be surprising if i ever meet a real native elder who decides to create an internet site for themselves. The only ones i have met who have done so, have turned out to be very bad people.
There is a sacred law of not talking about sacred traditions, and to offer random classes, to random people, and advertise the spiritual practices, is wrong.

That's my tribal view on that topic anyways. Traditions and ways are a little different with native peoples all over the world, but not much, and anyone connected with the old ways should probably see it that way as well.

Also a good spiritual teacher will have a gold aura around them, especially around their crown chakra, if you can see energies.

Nice post Ciqala...