The meditation path

[Gem]

When a person feels that they need meditation in their life, its very difficult to articulate what meditation is.

The life path is not a fantasy; it's the reality of the lived experience as it is experienced by you. It is the whole history of lived experience in which every detail adds up together to form this way of being who you are. Those of us reading this have survived this long, and possess the great strength we needed to endure. We learned deep things - things that we don't recall per se, but things that are life learned and have become part of us. Things which are irrevocably true were realised along the way that constitute self knowing and the understanding of life.

I want to start with one of these things that are known, which every person knows, which is not an experience as such, but a wisdom, because I think it's the fundamental core, the key, the bare essential to meditation. That thing is the truth. If anyone goes into meditation the most important thing is ones truthfulness. That honesty is introverted as the truth of yourself and it's extroverted as honesty with others. When this is practiced as a way of life, it cultivates trust within ones self, and trust between people. This is most fundamental to a spiritual path.

I have my lived experience and you have yours, and meditation pertains to the truth of ones own lived experience, not only as a passing continuum of changing phenomena, not only of memory and pivotal life changing moments, but also the actual deeper nature of it. The knowing of 'change', for example, is not an experience in itself, but the nature which pertains to all experiences. Knowing change, as an example, is one of those irrevocable truths. It can not be denied. It's just known to be. 'This will pass'.

It's your life. Your path. If its really is fantastic, well good, and if it's dark in misery and angst, well, that's the truth as it is being experienced by you. It's the reality of your life - not the fantasy - the truth of lived experience as it is in the way it is experienced by you. Without truthfulness, without a view to the truth of how things are, without being seated in honesty, there is no place to be and there's nowhere to start.

A vow to be truthful will in itself bring a feeling of strength. We already know that truthfulness is not 'the easy path'. It's the path of strength, integrity, confidence and deepening trust, and it has its own wisdom. Moreso, we already know its the only way.

[naturesflow]

I notice that the more I open deeper in truthfulness in myself the meditation experience becomes so much more deeper for me. Meaning by allowing myself to enter into asking those questions, letting myself open and be more present within, I am able to build a progressive movement of building a more grounded strong and deeper trust in living my life. Without either I can find that balance of being.


So I like what your sharing here.





That honesty is introverted as the truth of yourself and it's extroverted as honesty with others.-Gem


This is the foundation really what you say in this quote.
Another thought arising for me.
I am an introverted nature but I notice the more I have embraced the introverted truth of myself the more extroverted I can be in the world, because I am not afraid to be myself in the truth of who I am. And I know the more I go within and be open to the truth of myself as it arises and needs to be, the less I isolate and keep myself from life.

(although winter time I spend more time alone self nurturing myself)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I notice that the more I open deeper in truthfulness in myself the meditation experience becomes so much more deeper for me. Meaning by allowing myself to enter into asking those questions, letting myself open and be more present within, I am able to build a progressive movement of building a more grounded strong and deeper trust in living my life. Without either I can find that balance of being.

For me, truthfulness is the one true way and there is no other way. For this thread, its the beginning, but once begun it cannot end because truthfulness is a moral. Not a moral value like same sex love or whatever, but something inherently good. Some people say there is no good or bad, but there is a greater good well and beyond whats good for me personally, and the truth is just like that. The truth is within a person, it's between people and it's beyond us all.

Many people say 'whatever works for you' but that means nothing unless it's underpinned by utmost honesty. Usually 'what works' only means doing something that produces pleasure, but the truth hurts and the truth will set you free. It might be pleasure, it might be pain. It doesn't care if anyone likes it or not.

I merely suggest, don't kid yourself, and don't do 'what works'. Do what you know is best. You have that ingrained strength and wisdom (I mentioned in the first post). All that you have realised along the way, and there is in every person an affinity with the truth, and if one is most discerning and lives with integrity, they live well beyond themselves and to the benefit of all beings... just by being alive.

I'm not talking about 'special people' who are really really spiritual. I'm talking about everyday folk like myself for one, because it could be said, if you are true to yourself, you are, in your own way, exceptional.

It's a very delicate thing, because even a small untruth can have devastating effects on trust. Trust is critical to the life path both for oneself and between people. I have been to where trust rests in the sort of faith that can only be fully given upon realising one's own indestructibility.

These things take delicate care, and I picture it like a spiders web, which when you pluck out a single small strand, a gaping hole appears as the perfect balance of tensions are disturbed, and the whole web loses its structural integrity. The spider then has to go to where the damage occurred, and not replace just that one tiny thread, but completely rebuild it so the overall structure is again sound. It can take some time to build up trust, it's easily destroyed, and it takes time to restore it again.

I don't know what sort of metaphor that is, but I dreamed it up as a representation of how strength comes as a balance, and that balance is subtle and refined - it is as though the strength is within realising how subtle the balance is.

When I wake up, I know my mind as it reaches forward into the day, remembering what was planned and making an order of things so I can them follow through and 'live the dream' as it were. In my case, I think there is a problem because I don't have a dream, a life dream like what I want to do and who I want to become. Things haven't worked out all that well for me in the past, and it left me without any endgame, but I have the day to live, so the key as I see it is to be aware of every step, and even more, to be at peace with each stride.

I'm much like other people with my trials and tribulations, ups and downs, life issues and attributes and all that. I don't like the spiritual parade where everyone seems so perfect. I wonder if these cats are keepin it real. It doesn't relate to my lived experience. In my case, I have done a fair amount of meditation and gone to extremes, but have no wish whatsoever that others experience what I did. I don't want anything from anyone and I'm totally cool with the way people are now. from my view, people don't have to be 'better' or anything like that. To me, it is the truth of the moment and it is not some other way. I'm OK with that lived reality, having no notions that it need be otherwise.

So I like what your sharing here.

I'm glad, because I want to speak in real life terms, and not in terms that are popular.

That honesty is introverted as the truth of yourself and it's extroverted as honesty with others.

-Gem


This is the foundation really what you say in this quote.
Another thought arising for me.
I am an introverted nature but I notice the more I have embraced the introverted truth of myself the more extroverted I can be in the world, because I am not afraid to be myself in the truth of who I am. And I know the more I go within and be open to the truth of myself as it arises and needs to be, the less I isolate and keep myself from life.

(although winter time I spend more time alone self nurturing myself)

Sometimes, for good people, who have done well, things can be easier because there is a sort of good feeling about the self, as though they are lovable and acceptable and hence will be desirable to others, so easily show themselves, but for other people there's darker histories and a sort of bad feeling which can't be extroverted for various reasons. This isn't just a emotional thing. It's visceral and can be felt in real time in the body. Parts of my life story can't be told because they are too alarming for the 'dinner table', so to speak. That always remains the introverted which I have to reserve. It is all known to me and I live with my own history, but I don't hate my past, and it doesn't hate me, so I can just be myself, be that partly in shadows.

The issue, I think, isn't how things become expressed, or repressed, but how things are felt through. With happy things we can just be glad, but traumatic things can't be glad things. Thay are true things which are not to be denied. This matter of what feelings are acceptable and what are not leads to people internalising these sorts of judgments, and they then pass judgement on others. You can hear it in the dialogue, all the expectations and judgments come out in 'you statements' and 'the Gem story'. My gift has been to live in the wrong, do wrong and hurt people, so now I can't judge. Life forms us into what we become. For example, if the child doesn't learn manners the man will seem rude, and like, eat with his mouth open etc.

The only difference is being conscious and mindful of action or just going wild subconsciously like 'they know what they do'. To be well grounded in mindfulness is to be 'aware of every step'... living mindfully in self awareness

There's a sort of attitude to meditation, a truthfulness at the heart of it all, and a kind of seriousness arising from a sense of care - a sort of gentleness that comes from its subtlety - a sort of feel for things that are barely even there.

[peteyzen]

Love this Gem. And of course truth is the hardest thing, we lie to ourselves, we aren`t congruent with our beliefs, our speech and our actions. Because of this, truth, `our` truth changes as we steadily roll back the lies and face the truths that we hide or discover. Most people are simply not strong enough to do this.

Meditation is a perfect reflection of this process. When we start to meditate, we accept a level of movement of the mind, but as we refine our practice, we slow it down more and mire until deeper, stiller states are reached. During this process though, before the deeper stiller levels are reached, its possible to sit down for a meditation and without realising it the mind is just `thinking` and not actually meditating. Only through the process of refining it and searching for the `truth` in our practice do we eventually realise, `ahh yes, this is not meditation`. It is not until we see this`truth` that we can correct our practice. The same is true of life, but of course life is harder because we are active and making decisions with our flawed out of control minds lol. Finding the truth behind our actions and egos in daily life is tougher.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

For me, truthfulness is the one true way and there is no other way. For this thread, its the beginning, but once begun it cannot end because truthfulness is a moral. Not a moral value like same sex love or whatever, but something inherently good. Some people say there is no good or bad, but there is a greater good well and beyond whats good for me personally, and the truth is just like that. The truth is within a person, it's between people and it's beyond us all.

Many people say 'whatever works for you' but that means nothing unless it's underpinned by utmost honesty. Usually 'what works' only means doing something that produces pleasure, but the truth hurts and the truth will set you free. It might be pleasure, it might be pain. It doesn't care if anyone likes it or not.



I merely suggest, don't kid yourself, and don't do 'what works'. Do what you know is best. You have that ingrained strength and wisdom (I mentioned in the first post). All that you have realised along the way, and there is in every person an affinity with the truth, and if one is most discerning and lives with integrity, they live well beyond themselves and to the benefit of all beings... just by being alive.

I think for me and many around me in real life, the truth as it grows deeper into the darkest areas of life where we might suppress, not care to look, consider we have no need to invest in those parts, does at some point require as to get more real in truth. Truth moves us in ways according to the flow of life and experiences that come into our being as one source together. Truth deepens as does balance with the continuous flow of life. I have found myself in those places at times where what once might have worked, no longer works and so I have to be willing to face myself in this way and be ok moving into a new space of change that may not be exactly what I envisioned for myself. For me this is now a constant movement of balance as I deepen and become more aware. Mindfully aware of the balance required for my continued movements and doing in life beyond myself alone.


As you and I both know through Divinyl's hit song. "Its a fine line between pleasure and pain" (Getting to know those fine lines and both sides helps to deepen and bring a greater measure of balance as far as I can tell)

I'm not talking about 'special people' who are really really spiritual. I'm talking about everyday folk like myself for one, because it could be said, if you are true to yourself, you are, in your own way, exceptional.

It's a very delicate thing, because even a small untruth can have devastating effects on trust. Trust is critical to the life path both for oneself and between people. I have been to where trust rests in the sort of faith that can only be fully given upon realising one's own indestructibility.

These things take delicate care, and I picture it like a spiders web, which when you pluck out a single small strand, a gaping hole appears as the perfect balance of tensions are disturbed, and the whole web loses its structural integrity. The spider then has to go to where the damage occurred, and not replace just that one tiny thread, but completely rebuild it so the overall structure is again sound. It can take some time to build up trust, it's easily destroyed, and it takes time to restore it again.

I don't know what sort of metaphor that is, but I dreamed it up as a representation of how strength comes as a balance, and that balance is subtle and refined - it is as though the strength is within realising how subtle the balance is.

Its a good metaphor. Balance for me only arises more complete when I enter into the place I pluck, look at the whole connection and move myself through it all. It does take much longer in this way. But I move on when I am done with the point I pluck. Sometimes that balance is very delicate as you share, that I have to revist over and over until I know in my heart I have peace. I have had to walk through a few issues like that, its been very hard and a long road to recovery to build that strength and faith in me to know I will be ok and I can keep on going. Subtle teaches me the deepest aspects of balance. They also show me my greatest strengths of support within myself. That strength feeds me back into life, that balance and faith/trust is what allows me to continue and get on with things.

When I wake up, I know my mind as it reaches forward into the day, remembering what was planned and making an order of things so I can them follow through and 'live the dream' as it were. In my case, I think there is a problem because I don't have a dream, a life dream like what I want to do and who I want to become. Things haven't worked out all that well for me in the past, and it left me without any endgame, but I have the day to live, so the key as I see it is to be aware of every step, and even more, to be at peace with each stride.

I'm much like other people with my trials and tribulations, ups and downs, life issues and attributes and all that. I don't like the spiritual parade where everyone seems so perfect. I wonder if these cats are keepin it real. It doesn't relate to my lived experience. In my case, I have done a fair amount of meditation and gone to extremes, but have no wish whatsoever that others experience what I did. I don't want anything from anyone and I'm totally cool with the way people are now. from my view, people don't have to be 'better' or anything like that. To me, it is the truth of the moment and it is not some other way. I'm OK with that lived reality, having no notions that it need be otherwise.

I guess each of us have our own unique life experiences and trials that we have to walk through. The way people rise to overcome and be beyond all that chooses the way it requires I imagine. The deeper and more difficult those challenges in life are, perhaps the way out for some is to remain in a more *spiritual dimension* to filter out lots of the subtle memories or difficulties within them. Perhaps that is a gift of peace that is chosen as the way for them. Perhaps their is not other way to manage their past. I suspect it serves to ally a measure of deeper peace to get on with life, get on with surviving and living as best as one can.

I don't know why I have to walk things through more real, but I do. Sometimes it feels incredibly heavy and sometimes I wonder if I can ever reach that peace and joy of being point I know is in me. I do know that it does bridge a deeper feeling/awareness of understanding as I walk and it often is not for me alone, in this understanding. All pain no matter how it is inflicted, created seems to link up in me as points of awareness that notices the interconnected relationship of all pain. Of course the experiences are all so different and varied, but I realize most often now days, it often shows it's face in me so I see this interconnected awareness of life over all. Not just a pocket that I carry in my pocket, but a heavy sack that I know I have carried in my whole body.

Today in meditation I was fidgeting and noticing what was being revealed to me as I was deepening and aware. At some point my body began to speak to me. I became aware of my heart. And my posture, I became aware of my pain in all interconnected weaves moving through all that. I observed my memories opening up a point when very young, where by my heart was wounded. The burden that carried me from that point onward into every heart ache, every heart hurt, every hit from the external pain coming in at me, creating it as my own pain. I then became aware that this was revealing everything I had been facing in the truth of my journey and process thus far in my body awareness reflection. My body was readying to really let go of the whole interconnected laying down of this early degeneration point both physically and emotionally. It also showed the retained reflex and the flight and fight response still lingering in me. I was grateful for this revealing of truth. Memories and understanding meeting the truth of what I had let go of in me up to this point. So in that moment, I understood the nature of seeing how far we come and how our body responds to show the work, the effort and strength to keep on going and keep on facing the truth within yourself and eventually everything begins to make sense in a greater context of all that I am and have been and are becoming. My body responding to show me itself in my dedication to my own truthfulness within on every level connected. I then found myself move beyond all that, my body shifted, relaxed and I allowed myself to go deeper into a more settled peaceful place.

In some ways this revealing today in my body, as it was showing me in meditation, some how reminded me of your metaphor, in both the the gift in truthfulness and the gift of strength to keep on walking through to the other side more complete.

I'm glad, because I want to speak in real life terms, and not in terms that are popular.


Sometimes, for good people, who have done well, things can be easier because there is a sort of good feeling about the self, as though they are lovable and acceptable and hence will be desirable to others, so easily show themselves, but for other people there's darker histories and a sort of bad feeling which can't be extroverted for various reasons. This isn't just a emotional thing. It's visceral and can be felt in real time in the body. Parts of my life story can't be told because they are too alarming for the 'dinner table', so to speak. That always remains the introverted which I have to reserve. It is all known to me and I live with my own history, but I don't hate my past, and it doesn't hate me, so I can just be myself, be that partly in shadows.

The issue, I think, isn't how things become expressed, or repressed, but how things are felt through. With happy things we can just be glad, but traumatic things can't be glad things. Thay are true things which are not to be denied. This matter of what feelings are acceptable and what are not leads to people internalising these sorts of judgments, and they then pass judgement on others. You can hear it in the dialogue, all the expectations and judgments come out in 'you statements' and 'the Gem story'. My gift has been to live in the wrong, do wrong and hurt people, so now I can't judge. Life forms us into what we become. For example, if the child doesn't learn manners the man will seem rude, and like, eat with his mouth open etc.

The only difference is being conscious and mindful of action or just going wild subconsciously like 'they know what they do'. To be well grounded in mindfulness is to be 'aware of every step'... living mindfully in self awareness

There's a sort of attitude to meditation, a truthfulness at the heart of it all, and a kind of seriousness arising from a sense of care - a sort of gentleness that comes from its subtlety - a sort of feel for things that are barely even there.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I think for me and many around me in real life, the truth as it grows deeper into the darkest areas of life where we might suppress, not care to look, consider we have no need to invest in those parts, does at some point require as to get more real in truth. Truth moves us in ways according to the flow of life and experiences that come into our being as one source together. Truth deepens as does balance with the continuous flow of life. I have found myself in those places at times where what once might have worked, no longer works and so I have to be willing to face myself in this way and be ok moving into a new space of change that may not be exactly what I envisioned for myself. For me this is now a constant movement of balance as I deepen and become more aware. Mindfully aware of the balance required for my continued movements and doing in life beyond myself alone.

Yes, people don't often speak on the darker things because meditation is 'supposed to be' nice, but because I consider meditation to be a healing or a purification path, the darker harder aspects of life are very relevant to the meditation path. We might not want to look into it, but not looking doesn't mean it isn't there. To me, it isn't to do with working on these things, like 'doing a healing' or something, but the harder path of being aware of it, letting it be as it is, and leaving it to change in its own time. I believe stopping the work on it allows things to change more freely, so ironically, for me, work does not work, and not working does, but the other irony is, not working is harder to do.

I usually see a difference between the willing path and the wilful path, and to me at least, meditation is a path that is willing toward change, and not willfully trying change things. As you say, being willing to acknowledge what is true is the way. I think everyone has this sense of 'facing the truth', and understands what that involves, because we have all lived through good and bad and have had to accept the inevitable many times before.

As you and I both know through Divinyl's hit song. "Its a fine line between pleasure and pain" (Getting to know those fine lines and both sides helps to deepen and bring a greater measure of balance as far as I can tell)

Yep. It's a great song with deep meaning. All my 'spiritual masters' were rock stars.

Its a good metaphor. Balance for me only arises more complete when I enter into the place I pluck, look at the whole connection and move myself through it all. It does take much longer in this way. But I move on when I am done with the point I pluck. Sometimes that balance is very delicate as you share, that I have to revist over and over until I know in my heart I have peace. I have had to walk through a few issues like that, its been very hard and a long road to recovery to build that strength and faith in me to know I will be ok and I can keep on going. Subtle teaches me the deepest aspects of balance. They also show me my greatest strengths of support within myself. That strength feeds me back into life, that balance and faith/trust is what allows me to continue and get on with things.

The way I see it is, things will change in their own time. One has to watch out for their impatience in this regard... I think of how when gardening we are happy just dealing with the soil and leaving the plants to grow as they do, but an impatient gardener tends to kill things, and over fertilise the soil, trying to speed things up being in such a rush for 'results'. Better results are the product of patience and care.

I guess each of us have our own unique life experiences and trials that we have to walk through. The way people rise to overcome and be beyond all that chooses the way it requires I imagine. The deeper and more difficult those challenges in life are, perhaps the way out for some is to remain in a more *spiritual dimension* to filter out lots of the subtle memories or difficulties within them. Perhaps that is a gift of peace that is chosen as the way for them. Perhaps their is not other way to manage their past. I suspect it serves to ally a measure of deeper peace to get on with life, get on with surviving and living as best as one can.

I prefer to be relatable to the real lived experiences of everyday people, because that's who I hang with, so I stay well clear of the 'so spiritual' thing, which is not relatable to me..

I don't know why I have walk things through more real, but I do. Sometimes it feels incredibly heavy and sometimes I wonder if I can ever reach that peace and joy of being point I know is in me. I do know that it does bridge a deeper feeling/awareness of understanding as I walk and it often is not for me alone, in this understanding. All pain no matter how it is inflicted, created seems to link up in me as points of awareness that notices the interconnected relationship of all pain. Of course the experiences are all so different and varied, but I realize most often now days, it often shows it's face in me so I see this interconnected awareness of life over all. Not just a pocket that I carry in my pocket, but a heavy sack that I know I have carried in my whole body.

It's more honest to walk with the real, and it does have really heavy aspects. After a lot of serious meditation the hard and solid starts to disolve, but we have take care that it doesn't become about hating the hard feelings and craving the lighter energy flow, because it's really about the balance of equanimity. I meditated with many experienced people who experience the softer flows in life, but still haven't realised issues of craving it more. Meditation is not the experiences of free flow, but the one that knows what it is experiencing. You see in the Buddhist Anapanasati Sutta (breath meditation) it doesn't say to breath in a certain way; it says when the breath is short I know it is a short breath; when the breath is long I know it is a long breath... I.e. it isn't the experience, it is the knowing. If it is heavy, I know it is heavy; if it is light I know it is light. I don't do something because I want it to be light and I don't want it to be heavy. I just know the truth of my experience as it is. Ok, that's not a method per se; it's the way it already is anyway. The meditation practice is therefore willing, and not willful, and about things as they are, not as you want them to be.

Today in meditation I was fidgeting and noticing what was being revealed to me as I was deepening and aware. At some point my body began to speak to me. I became aware of my heart. And my posture, I became aware of my pain in all interconnected weaves moving through all that. I observed my memories opening up a point when very young, where by my heart was wounded. The burden that carried me from that point onward into every heart ache, every heart hurt, every hit from the external pain coming in at me, creating it as my own pain. I then became aware that this was revealing everything I had been facing in the truth of my journey and process thus far in my body awareness reflection. My body was readying to really let go of the whole interconnected laying down of this early degeneration point both physically and emotionally. It also showed the retained reflex and the flight and fight response still lingering in me. I was grateful for this revealing of truth. Memories and understanding meeting the truth of what I had let go of in me up to this point. So in that moment, I understood the nature of seeing how far we come and how our body responds to show the work, the effort and strength to keep on going and keep on facing the truth within yourself and eventually everything begins to make sense in a greater context of all that I am and have been and are becoming. My body responding to show me itself in my dedication to my own truthfulness within on every level connected. I then found myself move beyond all that, my body shifted, relaxed and I allowed myself to go deeper into a more settled peaceful place.

Right. Feeling fidgety usually indicates the body being used to distract you from something more troublesome. There is a kind of distracted restless mentality associated with being fidgety. Yes, one great benefit of sitting in formal meditation is when you get a fuller awareness of posture. As you say, when pain is felt moving, as opposed to being a hard lump, that's really good. The body pain lump is usually connected to an emotional lump... like its manifestation, so when the lump of pain has a motion to it, that indicates the mind has gone to a deeper level where it can sense the more subtle aspects of what first felt solid, which is also going to the subtle root of the emotional content that manifested as pain in the body. This can be connected to an event from long long ago, which appears in conscious awareness as the memory, and that knot of thought which causes the knot in the body starts to unwind, just as the hard lump of pain starts to feel like it has subtle movements to it, it's starting to unwind or dissolve or however it can be described. Indeed, that 'fight or flight' sounds to me like the core reaction, which holds that hurt in place, has become exposed to the light of conscious awareness. You can realise that if you are aware of it, you are now not doing it anymore, or as soon as you start the reacting out of habit you notice it straight away. These things have their own momentum but that psychic energy burns out as you no longer invest in it. The thing to watch out for is dwelling on it, because being overly interested invests psychic energy into it. I usually examine painful parts for a couple of minutes tops, and then move on with awareness through the rest of the body or sit with a full body awareness... I just free style it, but I always cover my whole self. Sometimes I just stay with breath (and I have really refined breath awareness, if I do say so myself), but the body awareness is like the ultimate meditation in so many ways... like when you really feel the posture, yep, it starts to connect the dots.

In some ways this revealing today in my body, as it was showing me in meditation, some how reminded me of your metaphor, in both the the gift in truthfulness and the gift of strength to keep on walking through to the other side more complete.

Well, your post was very thoughtful, and it took me so long to reply. Gift of truthfulness and the gift of strength, it goes together, and we all have these gifts.

[A human Being]

What you said about attitude, and the distinction between willingness and wilfullness particularly resonated with me, because I think people can often approach meditation with an attitude that's not going to yield positive results (though I know meditation isn't really about trying to achieve results, but there are results, regardless). I know in my own experience, anyway, that when I began meditating I was trying to will into existence a certain state, or I was trying to trying to correspond to some preconceived idea of what I thought meditation was about, whereas now, for me, it's about being receptive to my present experience - to the entirety of my experience. And there's a willingness that's required to be entirely open to and conscious of my present experience, whether it's an experience of discomfort, inner turmoil, bliss - whatever it may be.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by A human Being

What you said about attitude, and the distinction between willingness and wilfullness particularly resonated with me, because I think people can often approach meditation with an attitude that's not going to yield positive results (though I know meditation isn't really about trying to achieve results, but there are results, regardless). I know in my own experience, anyway, that when I began meditating I was trying to will into existence a certain state, or I was trying to trying to correspond to some preconceived idea of what I thought meditation was about, whereas now, for me, it's about being receptive to my present experience - to the entirety of my experience. And there's a willingness that's required to be entirely open to and conscious of my present experience, whether it's an experience of discomfort, inner turmoil, bliss - whatever it may be.

Sure, I basically stress how important a really truthful approach to life is. It's the key stone to the meditation path. I started more serious meditation in traditional Buddhist Vipassana, and taking the precepts is the first step, and is a requirement. I didn't understand the importance at first, but as I practiced I realised the reasons for having a solid moral base. I'm not talking about moral values, though; I'm speaking of things we just know are right, like being truthful and living a the way of a truthful life. It goes without saying that this is the 'right way'. Actually living it might be more challenging.

Indeed, the reason for meditation is the 'good results', but this raises a subtle question: what is good? However, we already have a sense of goodness and understand the virtues of being honest and kind and so forth. We also know deceit and cruelty - harming ourselves and other living beings - is not good. There is already a known sense of goodness and a sense of what's right. That said, we face dilemmas regarding what is for the best. Where I grew up it was violent environment, and harming was like a necessary survival strategy. Everyone was harmed and/or did harm. It was simply the way of that world and people had to survive in it. There's no judgement is these affairs, but we still know that harming ourselves and others is essentially bad, or it does no good, despite what we might have to do to survive. So, being truthful is automatically known out of this sense of goodness.

Back to the results. For me, meditation is a purification or a healing process so the results involve the body/mind opening up to the purity of universal conscious awareness. The way this works, I claim, is through the balance of equanimity of the mind, or a 'pure awareness'. The practice then is not looking for experiences, but practicing remaining with what happens to be experienced, and also keeping mentally still as opposed to reacting blindly with aversions and desires and judgements etc. We each have our point of limitation where the felt sensation will result in strong reactions that overwhelm our stable balance, and we lose the plot being swept off by excitement, frustration, old emotional torment and that sort of psychological agitation. Practice means, where first of all a meditator was easily overwhelmed, and actually blind to their highly reactive state of living, they build strength of balance of peace of the mind, and bring to light the unconscious psychological activity that caused this great mystery around 'why do I suffer so?' In my case through becoming conscious like this I had to face up to horrible things like what a complete a-hole I was, being angry, abusing people, neglecting care, and hurting everyone around me in some way. It's a hard thing to face up to, but the truth of things is not the ease of things. Meditation is a most arduous path because you have to endure pain of the physical and emotional body, and even more, you can't avoid the worst and most denied truths about ones own self. In my own experience, and the experience of so many others I have meditated with, finding out the truth of the way you are can be at times extremely disconcerting.

It seems I'm painting a dismal picture, and meditation sounds so bad when I talk about it. I mean who wants pain, right? None of us want pain, and thats why we have been avoiding it all this time, and on the other hand trying to get pleasure after pleasure as though sensational pleasure is the way to happiness. People are driven thus, which is distraction from 'what is', and compelled to act upon these ways of avoidance and craving as their basic way of life... but after all these years of such avoiding and striving, there remains really wild ups and downs and no basic happiness - not a wonderful bliss in particular - but a settled living contentment even when everything is completely going wrong. We're not dead Buddha statues or anything, and we have to have ups and downs in life, but the continuation of present self awareness, as opposed to losing the plot, gives us that anchor of fundamental contentment... regardless of changing circumstances.

So, the practice has results but it isn't trying to achieve. The way of purification has two parts: Conscious awareness and mindful equanimity. It is said that these two are like two pillars. They are both needed and they have to be the same size and the same strength. Both being aware of what is, whatever that might be, and being peaceful with it. It is easier to be peaceful when ignoring or avoiding any pain, but harder to let pain just be there while the mind remains peaceful. You can see the mind fall into reactive agitation quite easily as the body experiences discomfort - and that means suffering is no longer unconscious, but noticed, and being conscious of it is really the same as it coming out, or opening up, into the light of conscious awareness...

It seems I talk about meditation quite differently to other people, but this is just from the way I lived it. It's just the truth of the experience as it is, in the way I experienced it.

Cheers. I enjoyed saying all that!

[A human Being]

Very nicely said, Gem

Originally Posted by Gem

Indeed, the reason for meditation is the 'good results', but this raises a subtle question: what is good? However, we already have a sense of goodness and understand the virtues of being honest and kind and so forth. We also know deceit and cruelty - harming ourselves and other living beings - is not good. There is already a known sense of goodness and a sense of what's right. That said, we face dilemmas regarding what is for the best. Where I grew up it was violent environment, and harming was like a necessary survival strategy. Everyone was harmed and/or did harm. It was simply the way of that world and people had to survive in it. There's no judgement is these affairs, but we still know that harming ourselves and others is essentially bad, or it does no good, despite what we might have to do to survive. So, being truthful is automatically known out of this sense of goodness.

Mm... I think the question is, do we truly know what is good, or do we only believe it to be so? Have we inherited certain beliefs from our culture about what constitutes 'right' behaviour, or are we drawing on an intuitive sense of right and wrong? There are, as you say, situations in life in which to know what is for the best can seem like an incredibly tricky dilemma, and it can feel like you're being pulled in many different directions by seemingly conflicting concerns; I think at moments like that, in order to know how to conduct oneself it's necessary to stop and 'survey the scene', so to speak, to see the bigger picture and to see oneself in the context of that bigger picture (our tendency, conversely, is to look at our situation from a 'me'-centred perspective).

Originally Posted by Gem

Back to the results. For me, meditation is a purification or a healing process so the results involve the body/mind opening up to the purity of universal conscious awareness. The way this works, I claim, is through the balance of equanimity of the mind, or a 'pure awareness'. The practice then is not looking for experiences, but practicing remaining with what happens to be experienced, and also keeping mentally still as opposed to reacting blindly with aversions and desires and judgements etc. We each have our point of limitation where the felt sensation will result in strong reactions that overwhelm our stable balance, and we lose the plot being swept off by excitement, frustration, old emotional torment and that sort of psychological agitation. Practice means, where first of all a meditator was easily overwhelmed, and actually blind to their highly reactive state of living, they build strength of balance of peace of the mind, and bring to light the unconscious psychological activity that caused this great mystery around 'why do I suffer so?' In my case through becoming conscious like this I had to face up to horrible things like what a complete a-hole I was, being angry, abusing people, neglecting care, and hurting everyone around me in some way. It's a hard thing to face up to, but the truth of things is not the ease of things. Meditation is a most arduous path because you have to endure pain of the physical and emotional body, and even more, you can't avoid the worst and most denied truths about ones own self. In my own experience, and the experience of so many others I have meditated with, finding out the truth of the way you are can be at times extremely disconcerting.

It seems I'm painting a dismal picture, and meditation sounds so bad when I talk about it. I mean who wants pain, right? None of us want pain, and thats why we have been avoiding it all this time, and on the other hand trying to get pleasure after pleasure as though sensational pleasure is the way to happiness. People are driven thus, which is distraction from 'what is', and compelled to act upon these ways of avoidance and craving as their basic way of life... but after all these years of such avoiding and striving, there remains really wild ups and downs and no basic happiness - not a wonderful bliss in particular - but a settled living contentment even when everything is completely going wrong. We're not dead Buddha statues or anything, and we have to have ups and downs in life, but the continuation of present self awareness, as opposed to losing the plot, gives us that anchor of fundamental contentment... regardless of changing circumstances.

So, the practice has results but it isn't trying to achieve. The way of purification has two parts: Conscious awareness and mindful equanimity. It is said that these two are like two pillars. They are both needed and they have to be the same size and the same strength. Both being aware of what is, whatever that might be, and being peaceful with it. It is easier to be peaceful when ignoring or avoiding any pain, but harder to let pain just be there while the mind remains peaceful. You can see the mind fall into reactive agitation quite easily as the body experiences discomfort - and that means suffering is no longer unconscious, but noticed, and being conscious of it is really the same as it coming out, or opening up, into the light of conscious awareness...

It seems I talk about meditation quite differently to other people, but this is just from the way I lived it. It's just the truth of the experience as it is, in the way I experienced it.

Cheers. I enjoyed saying all that!

You've put it so well that I can't think of a whole lot to add to it The bit in bold is, for me, the essence of meditation - it's the willingness to stop and acknowledge our present experience, with all its agitation, discomfort, upset (and, heck, some positive things, too - it does seem like quite a dismal picture we're painting , though really, that is the lived experience of a fair majority of people, I'd say). Sounds so straightforward, in theory, but in reality so many of us have such a reactive relationship with the present moment, forever restlessly searching for distractions or else obsessing about what has been or what is to come, that it's anything but straightforward.

And it does require a fierce commitment to the truth, I feel, and it can and often does reveal things about ourselves that we'd really rather not see, such as the ways in which we've behaved like a devious, self-centred donkey's rear end*, say. But then, it just has to be seen, not judged, and with that can come compassion for self, too, and we can release on a mental, emotional, and energetic level these previously unconscious patterns that had caused us to suffer and live in fear.

*I'm paraphrasing to avoid censorship - really doesn't roll of the tongue when you put it like that!

[Gem]

I think we have a sense of goodness in the same way we have a sense for the truth. I mean, everyone somehow knows what it is to be truthful, and I have no idea how or why that is. It's like no one knows what is good, or what goodness is, but for some reason people understand universally such things as kindness and love, and other virtues, which are intrinsically positive, while selfishness, deception, greed and hatred bring deep misery to everyone.

Perhaps the world has become distant in its material consumerism and greed, but there comes a time when people realise that persuits of the senses don't touch the depths of human happiness, and they begin to lose interest in mindless acquisition (which is fundamentally the pursuit of sensation). They might feel a burning need for something that surpasses the senses...

I don't promise wonderful things because I know the real lived experience of individuals is not necessarily wonderful, and some experience severe misery. There are some that are quite content, and some who are highly stressful, some who have incredible experiences and some who live basic physical lives. I'm not concerned with one experience or another. I'm more focused on the universal truth of experience, which is the awareness of change, because that's the reality for everyone.

The meditation is what is already the case, but it requires being consciously present with it.