Karma, Justice, and an world designed to evil

[WhiteWarrior]

"Every action has an opposite reaction." I have had this sentence hammered into me by my guides. It is the core of Karma, that any negative action you do will have a similar action returned to you - or to someone you care about. If not right away then eventually, even if it is going to be in a later life. Sounds fair, doesn't it? Universal justice; what a beautiful concept. It isn't.

Some of you may have heard about the Lords and Ladies of Karma. It is a celestial committee, one of many, and it deals with the balance of bad and good. Bad deeds gets punished eventually so the balance returns.

I am very angry with the way this actually works, and I have some very ugly suspicions about it too.

Case one. A bad guy does something bad to an innocent woman. This creates an imbalance - actually it creates two. Now the bad guy needs to be punished. And the victim needs a nice thing to happen to her too. Right? Wrong! Karma does not seem to be interested in the victims. As far as I know, she will never experience something nice to cover for the injustice done to her. Ask anyone in this world who has suffered and you will most likely not find that there never happened anything nice.

Continuing case one. The bad guy gets punished..... eventually. Which does happen, in his current life. But how? Something bad is made to happen to him. But hey, now someone ELSE needs to be punished for something. It doesn't matter if THAT person is bad or good, does it? And it doesn't matter that Karma made it happen either, it is punishing time!

Still case one. The bad guy gets punished.... in his next life. And since he don't even believe in reincarnation he will definitely never consider it a due punishment. But an injustice, which he will take revenge for. But since it isn't an injustice, now the bad guy deserves ANOTHER karmic punishment. Which will create another reason to punish someone else... again.

Basically, evil actions BREED. I am convinced that the Powers That Be that rule our world and created this system of karma, are evil and laughing hysterically as our world descends into deeper and deeper evil. Personally I can't wait to leave it and never come back, and if I eventually choose to have my energies disbanded and truly escape these worlds then my last act will be to give the Powers my middle finger. We live in Hell and that is how they planned it. Escaping their control is going to be my good riddance act of defiance.

It's natural laws that govern it. Moral dimensions are added to natural cause & effect. Justice, dishonor, murder, theft and goodness are lines and concepts drawn up by human hands. They are ideas we use to make life more orderly and coherent. The cosmos has little care for whether someone is raped, or stolen from; same with whether they take care of ill children all their life at the expense of their own health. Good and honorable actions are deemed so by other humans, along with evil or dishonorable deeds. It's caused a lot of suffering and anguish over the perceived injustice in the world. Which is understandable, life can be harsh and unfair, but more reason for people to hold each other accountable to each other's choices and work. We are the dispensers of punishment and reward for weleful and woeful actions.

Man is the measure of all things. - Protagoras

[WhiteWarrior]

Originally Posted by Animus27

It's natural laws that govern it. Moral dimensions are added to natural cause & effect. Justice, dishonor, murder, theft and goodness are lines and concepts drawn up by human hands. They are ideas we use to make life more orderly and coherent. The cosmos has little care for whether someone is raped, or stolen from; same with whether they take care of ill children all their life at the expense of their own health. Good and honorable actions are deemed so by other humans, along with evil or dishonorable deeds. It's caused a lot of suffering and anguish over the perceived injustice in the world. Which is understandable, life can be harsh and unfair, but more reason for people to hold each other accountable to each other's choices and work. We are the dispensers of punishment and reward for weleful and woeful actions.

Man is the measure of all things. - Protagoras

So basically you dismiss the concept of karma. I wish I could do the same.

Originally Posted by WhiteWarrior

So basically you dismiss the concept of karma. I wish I could do the same.

Depends on the definition of karma. I think it's mostly just a dressed up basic law of Newtonian physics - every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

It's when people start moralizing and projecting their own anthropomorphic views onto the cause and effect of the universe that I am less inclined to agree with it. Karma rarely reveals itself as some dispenser of universal justice, many a tyrant and murderer has lived unmolested, whilst many good people go their graves with undue suffering & pain. But, one may say, there are other lives in which the karmic debt to be paid, etc. The problem is that it's merely a human idea of what happens after death, it relies on a concept of some individuality being reborn from one life to the next (unless you take a Theravadan idea of rebirth and the nature of karma).

For me, there is small difference between people naming the lake of fire as a destination for bad people and saying 'karma's gonna get chu in the next life'. Of course, that's just my worldview of the matter. I think anthropocentrism can be a hard thing to overcome when looking at the brutality of nature, and it's inherent amorality.

[Xan]

"Every action has an opposite reaction." I have had this sentence hammered into me by my guides. It is the core of Karma, that any negative action you do will have a similar action returned to you - or to someone you care about.

I am very angry with the way this actually works, and I have some very ugly suspicions about it too.

WhiteWarrior... It seems you are seeing the downside of Karma - bad actions lead to bad effects - but ignoring the upside of it.

At any time you can choose to begin to come from forgiving, accepting and love. Just imagine the karmic effects of that, in yourself and those around you and in the world.


Xan

The current view of Karma is only a remnant of the original conception. The real meaning of Kamma and how it works has nothing to do with points floating above your head effected by good and bad deeds and experiences.. After all think about it suffering through something can actually help you in the long run or cause better effect in the future. I won't pretend to be enlightened on the meaning of Kamma and it's purpose... I mostly believe in what goes around comes around and that everything we put out causes a vibration that ripples back and bites us in the bum.

From what I am trying to understand in your perception of Karma, it is some new conception separate somehow from the original version. You are describing Karma more as more of Judgment and consequence.. Which is usually not the case in Buddhist views from what I understand.

I believe in a sort of Karma/Kamma but it is my own belief I gather on my own just using my intuition. I believe that everything we do is something we have pulled in somehow, I believe there is an energy vortex we send and receive vibrations/energy from and every thought and action effects our "destiny". I also believe that the truth is something our consciousness at its current state can comprehend but is incapable of relaying it into language for our minds to understand. I would go on but I'm sure you have your own beliefs.

"Every action has an opposite reaction." I have had this sentence hammered into me by my guides. It is the core of Karma, that any negative action you do will have a similar action returned to you - or to someone you care about. If not right away then eventually, even if it is going to be in a later life. Sounds fair, doesn't it? Universal justice; what a beautiful concept. It isn't.

Some of you may have heard about the Lords and Ladies of Karma. It is a celestial committee, one of many, and it deals with the balance of bad and good. Bad deeds gets punished eventually so the balance returns.

I am very angry with the way this actually works, and I have some very ugly suspicions about it too.

Case one. A bad guy does something bad to an innocent woman. This creates an imbalance - actually it creates two. Now the bad guy needs to be punished. And the victim needs a nice thing to happen to her too. Right? Wrong! Karma does not seem to be interested in the victims. As far as I know, she will never experience something nice to cover for the injustice done to her. Ask anyone in this world who has suffered and you will most likely not find that there never happened anything nice.

Continuing case one. The bad guy gets punished..... eventually. Which does happen, in his current life. But how? Something bad is made to happen to him. But hey, now someone ELSE needs to be punished for something. It doesn't matter if THAT person is bad or good, does it? And it doesn't matter that Karma made it happen either, it is punishing time!

Still case one. The bad guy gets punished.... in his next life. And since he don't even believe in reincarnation he will definitely never consider it a due punishment. But an injustice, which he will take revenge for. But since it isn't an injustice, now the bad guy deserves ANOTHER karmic punishment. Which will create another reason to punish someone else... again.

Basically, evil actions BREED. I am convinced that the Powers That Be that rule our world and created this system of karma, are evil and laughing hysterically as our world descends into deeper and deeper evil. Personally I can't wait to leave it and never come back, and if I eventually choose to have my energies disbanded and truly escape these worlds then my last act will be to give the Powers my middle finger. We live in Hell and that is how they planned it. Escaping their control is going to be my good riddance act of defiance.

Hmm

If there is some omniprescent organisation or 'comitee' out there designating who and what is right and wrong and punishing people accordingly, then I personally don't call that Karma. I just call that conspiracy and manipulation and control over a body of individuals which actually restricts free will for others (the comitees) personal gain. Spiritual slavery and suppression is a nice way to put it too.

I don't know about you but I always saw Karma as being the consequences or affect of ones own actions beyond what a persons mind can follow or percieve, like a chain affect that goes beyond each persons fathomable awareness and 'comes back' to them and affects them just as they affect it. An environmental reaction to a physical action (and not neccissarily an opposing reaction, depending on how you look at it.)

I figure that nature can correct imbalances pretty well without a bunch of individuals of a 'higher standing' with opinions and personalities of their own trying to do the job themselves.

So, basically there is 'karma' and then there is karma.

I see your concept of karma as an injustice, to say the least, because I don't honestly see it as being karma, but some form of foulplay by individuals 'in power.'

Having said that, I'm quite sure that there is a choice of whether to buy into those kinds of mechanations in the first place and a choice of whether to stop being affected by such things too.

There are likely ways to withdraw from your kind of karma (since you seem to have been wronged by it one too many times) and lead a more fullfilling existence (if thats whats going on.)

You've just got to figure out how

[Evaah]

I said I wouldn't really offer my opinion, but my understanding of karma is along the lines of ADT's. I don't really do the whole "justice" thing, because I focus more on things at the soul level... in my group's understanding, "evil" and "injustice" and all things negative reside only on the physical world, or the lowest vibrational layer(s). I know many people like to think of the entire universe as "light" and "dark," but I'm one of those few who sees the universe(s) as all-light.

Meh. Just what my gut and guidance feels. We don't quite resonate with the idea of some "committee" ruling the karma system. That seems like a very "human" idea...

Originally Posted by Evaah

I said I wouldn't really offer my opinion, but my understanding of karma is along the lines of ADT's. I don't really do the whole "justice" thing, because I focus more on things at the soul level... in my group's understanding, "evil" and "injustice" and all things negative reside only on the physical world, or the lowest vibrational layer(s). I know many people like to think of the entire universe as "light" and "dark," but I'm one of those few who sees the universe(s) as all-light.

Meh. Just what my gut and guidance feels. We don't quite resonate with the idea of some "committee" ruling the karma system. That seems like a very "human" idea...

Darkness is simply the absence of light.. Without light there is no darkness. I always wonder why people refer to good as light and bad as darkness. Darkness actually doesn't exist at all.

I can give examples of karma.

- I was driving on the highway, this car was tailgating me. People think that tailgating other cars would try to make them to speed up (rolls eyes). I switched to the right lane, the car sped up and they hit some cones on the median and he was pulled over by a cop.

- My ex-husband cheated on me when we were married and he felt he could get away with it. I caught him and found a lot of evidence. He has been cheating on me for many years by different women. The apple of his eye is our only son together. I filed for divorce and our son lives with me full time. He only sees our son twice a year plus he pays child support every month.

- My mother is a very negative and toxic person and she has been all my life. She is paying the price of her negative mannerism now with illness and disease. I know that being negative can contribute to illness/disease along with diet, genetics, exercise.

- If you have seen the show "Deadly Women" (search on youtube for episodes). It shows fact based stories on women who have murdered others and why they did it. Some are justifiable homocides and some are just plain evil.

- Alot of celebrities who do drugs end up taking their own lives or die of drug overdose. Money doesn't buy happiness.

- This woman I know who is a nurse. Her ex-husband cheated on her with her friend (also a nurse) when she was still married. Double betrayal. Her ex also had a drug problem and spent most of his paycheck on drugs. He ended up getting cancer and when he was in the hospital rarely did anyone visit him, except his ex-wife. His ex-wife has a heart of gold because not only did she visit him she brought him to live with her so she can care for him full time until he passed. He confessed to her before he passed that he felt very remorseful and cried for what he put her and their kids through when they were married and he expressed his gratitude and appreciation for her altruism.