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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #1  
Old 13-05-2011, 04:23 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Evolution And The Double Bind

Quote:
"Double binds are often utilized as a form of control without open coercion - the use of confusion makes them difficult to respond to or resist."

"Unlike the usual no-win situation, the victim has difficulty defining the exact nature of the paradoxical situation in which he or she is."

"For example, if your employer tells you to do a job but doesn't allow enough time for you to do it and you are in danger of losing your job if you question the situation you are in a double bind."

A double bind secretly coerces people by trapping them in a paradox (e.g. good appears equal to evil).
Keeping them from conscientious objection.

Conscientious objection involves becoming forgetful about possible losses (things that change) such as losing a job,
And persevering toward what is good (the unchanging standard by which changeable things are judged).

Conscientious objection is like evolution,
Natural selection involves judging changeable things (e.g. the human body) according to certain unchanging standards.

So, if there is only a physical reality that changes (e.g. the physical universe is God),
How do you defend yourself against a secretly coercive double bind?

In Catholicism, the Eucharist is the Way to God (Jesus), where bread and God (goodness) are one.
He meets us where we are at (following changeable things like bread),
And simultaneously leads us to follow unchanging goodness.

This helps us toward conscientious objection.
And is a defense against a double bind.
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  #2  
Old 13-05-2011, 08:02 PM
Prokopton
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I'd say any practice at all which gets one in touch with conscience, true feelings, and the higher aspect of one's own nature, will provide the courage to strike through such cultural gordian knots. Indifference to loss itself, explicitly, is of course cultivated in many systems from Buddhism to Stoicism.

Natural selection really involves survival tests amidst constantly changing environmental circumstances, not against 'unchanging standards' in my view. But I don't think this really affects your major point at all, which really places the double bind in the greater general context of groupmind cultural thinking which prevents independence. All spiritual paths give methods of actualization that undo such programming, I would think.
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  #3  
Old 14-05-2011, 04:37 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
I'd say any practice at all which gets one in touch with conscience, true feelings, and the higher aspect of one's own nature, will provide the courage to strike through such cultural gordian knots. Indifference to loss itself, explicitly, is of course cultivated in many systems from Buddhism to Stoicism.

Natural selection really involves survival tests amidst constantly changing environmental circumstances, not against 'unchanging standards' in my view. But I don't think this really affects your major point at all, which really places the double bind in the greater general context of groupmind cultural thinking which prevents independence. All spiritual paths give methods of actualization that undo such programming, I would think.
I agree that following a sense of right and wrong,
Provides the courage to strike through,
Cultural groupmind difficulties,
And follow our desired path,
Toward happiness.

Quote:
"Double bind theory is more clearly understood in the context of complex systems and cybernetics because human communication and also the mind itself function in an interactive manner similar to ecosystems. Complex systems theory helps us understand the interdependence of the parts of a message and provides 'an ordering of what to the Newtonian looks like chaos.'"
Iā€™m Catholic,
And in Catholicism,

God is named "love,ā€ and "goodness.ā€
Goodness (love) is intrinsically good (rewarding).
And it is the unchangeable standard by which we judge whether we desire something.

Reason proceeds from this natural desire for good over evil (avoiding contradictions like 'good = evil'),
And also unites the "Cardinal Virtues" (justice, courage, moderation, and prudence)...

Justice: introduces reason,
Courage: supports the pursuit of being reasonable,
Moderation: introduces restraint according to reason,
Prudence: perfects reason.

All virtues are dispositions,
And therefore not subject to change,
And serve as protection against temptations to do evil.
But if we become weak in one virtue, our other virtues help fortify it.
St. John of the Cross likened virtues to "shields," "crowns of flowers," and "linked dens of lions" in his The Spiritual Canticle.
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  #4  
Old 14-05-2011, 07:28 PM
Prokopton
Posts: n/a
 
Um yeah, I know double bind theory is associated with systems and cybernetics -- it comes from Bateson, a very interesting guy. Partly he was attempting to explain schizophrenia. Systems theory is very useful stuff, quite related to early Taoism.

That 'four major virtues' idea did not originate with Christianity BTW -- the Stoics came up with it. Much of Stoicism later went into the syntheses of the early Fathers, both directly and via Platonism. The Stoic theory of virtues was not dissimilar from the one you outline and was highly advanced; it's a philosophy for which I have a fondness, sometimes known as kind of 'Western Taoism' too.
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  #5  
Old 15-05-2011, 01:51 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Natural selection really involves survival tests amidst constantly changing environmental circumstances, not against 'unchanging standards' in my view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Um yeah, I know double bind theory is associated with systems and cybernetics -- it comes from Bateson, a very interesting guy. Partly he was attempting to explain schizophrenia. Systems theory is very useful stuff, quite related to early Taoism.

That 'four major virtues' idea did not originate with Christianity BTW -- the Stoics came up with it. Much of Stoicism later went into the syntheses of the early Fathers, both directly and via Platonism. The Stoic theory of virtues was not dissimilar from the one you outline and was highly advanced; it's a philosophy for which I have a fondness, sometimes known as kind of 'Western Taoism' too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
Courage: supports the pursuit of being reasonable,
What is the goal of the Stoic virtues? Goodness, usefulness, survival, reason,...
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  #6  
Old 15-05-2011, 02:00 PM
Prokopton
Posts: n/a
 
Well the reason Stoicism is often correlated with Taoism is that its goal is the same, pretty much -- 'Harmony with Nature' or with the unfolding of life. This is seen as divinely generated (by a Zeus who has essentially become a logos-principle.) The goal of Stoic philosophy is to become a sophos or wise man (=person! -- they were Greek therefore sexist.)

I used to know more of the direct Stoic virtue theory, however I abandoned it myself some time ago as too one-size-fits-all, so I don't remember in detail. There are some very good web pages on the Stoic principles though, because as a practical philosophy it's experiencing something of a revival.

The Stoic ethics stood alongside their logic and physics, which involved an understanding of chi (they named it pneuma). One of the more energetic results of wisdom was what they called tonos, which roughly means resilient energy. It was this resilient, springy strength which allowed the psyche to remain harmonious amidst all life circumstances, not giving way to pathos (modern "pathology") -- however, it was also said by some Stoics that this tonos allowed the soul to survive death, when normally it would dissipate.
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  #7  
Old 16-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Well the reason Stoicism is often correlated with Taoism is that its goal is the same, pretty much -- 'Harmony with Nature' or with the unfolding of life.
I'm not sure what you are saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
I used to know more of the direct Stoic virtue theory, however I abandoned it myself some time ago as too one-size-fits-all
We choose according to what makes us happy.
So, real freedom is found in happiness itself, not in the things we decide to change.

Quote:
"God says to a saintly man who is deeply afflicted because of persecution by his enemies: 'I will free you from your enemies.' This prophesy could be very true; nonetheless it will happen that his enemies prevail and kill him. Anyone who had given these words a temporal interpretation would have been deceived because God had been speaking of the true and principal freedom and victory - salvation, in which the soul is free and victorious over its enemies much more truly and lofty than if liberated from them here below."

St. John of the Cross, The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II, Section 12.
"Salvation" is happiness (which lacks no happiness).
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  #8  
Old 18-05-2011, 01:59 AM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
We choose according to what makes us happy.
So, real freedom is found in happiness itself, not in the things we decide to change.
Our goal is happiness (over unhappiness),
And goals are unchanging standards across time.

The choices we make when faced with double bind injunctions,
Are guided by our inherent desire to choose happiness over unhappiness.
So, double binds fail to remove the self-evident desire for happiness over unhappiness.

Even if we believe that "unhappiness = happiness,"
It is because we accept that it makes us happy.
(But this would be unreasonable).
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  #9  
Old 18-05-2011, 08:37 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
"human communication and also the mind itself function in an interactive manner similar to ecosystems."

Since freedom is found in happiness itself,
The changeable physical world is always secondary,
To the unchanging goal of happiness (which I would call "spiritual").
So, systems, such as ecosystems or social systems, are not reciprocal to happiness.

In Catholicism,
The "Cardinal Virtues,"
Which logically follow from our desire to be happy,
And which are the hinges of all virtues,
Are also called the "Social Virtues,"
Since they govern social systems.

Since there is a lack of peace,
Without an attainment of a desired goal,
Then, there is a lack of peace without happiness and virtue.
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  #10  
Old 18-05-2011, 08:45 PM
tragblack
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
The Stoic theory of virtues was not dissimilar from the one you outline and was highly advanced; it's a philosophy for which I have a fondness, sometimes known as kind of 'Western Taoism' too.

I am fond of it, too, though no expert. It reminds me of my favorite year of history class: Western Civ, Sophomore year... =) I had a brilliant teacher whose influence exists in me to this day. He was a great thinker himself and was very hard to please-- didn't let kids who were supposed to be "advanced" (it was an honors course) get away with doing lousy work simply because they were in the course. He would draw up great lists of paradoxes and all kinds of stuff that would help us remember useful historical and philosophical information for the rest of our lives. He trained us to remember that the fall of Rome was in 476 whenever we hear a loud noise, by banging on his desk suddenly, in the middle of a lecture, and shouting it out.
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