Rare is the Guru
 

From the KULARNAVA TANTRA



Difficult to obtain is the Guru who pleased,

gifts to you in the fraction of a second, the

wealth of liberation, taking you across the ocean

of Samsara.



Difficult to obtain is the godly Guru who

gives to the disciple his own capacity in a

moment without any ceremony or effort; who

gives instruction in knowledge which instantly

promotes faith, is easy and gives happiness of

the Self.



He is the Guru who goes on giving knowledge

with facility, without strenuous practice

and the like, as one moves from island to island.

Difficult to obtain is the Guru whose mere

instruction gives rise to knowledge, even as food

gives instant contentment to the hungry.

Many are the Gurus like lamps in house and

house; but rare is the Guru who lights up all

like the sun.



Many are the Gurus who are proficient to the

utmost in Vedas, and Sastras; but rare is the

Guru who has attained to the supreme Truth.

Many are the Gurus on earth who give what

is other than the Self; but rare is the Guru in

the worlds who brings to light the Atman.

Many are the Gurus who know petty

mantras, medicaments; but rare is the Guru

who knows the Mantras handed down by the

Nigama, Agama and Sastra.



Many are the Gurus who rob the disciple of

his wealth; but rare is the Guru who removes

the afflictions of the disciple.



Many are they who are given to the discipline

and conduct according to varna (class),

asrama (stage) and kula (family); but he who is

devoid of all volition is the Guru rare to find.

He is the Guru by whose very contact there

flows the supreme Ananda; the intelligent

man shall choose such a one as the Guru and

no other.



By the mere sight of him whose intelligence

is active only till the advent of experience, one

attains liberation, there is no doubt of it.

Rare is the Guru who has eaten up Doubt

which has engulfed the three worlds with all

that is moving and unmoving.



As in the vicinity of fire the butter gets

melted, so in the proximity of the holy Guru all

sin dissolves



As lighted fire burns up all fuel - dry and

moist - so the glance of the Guru burns up in a

moment the sin of the disciple.



As a heap of cotton blown up by a great

storm scatters in all the ten directions, so the

heap of sins is driven away by the compassion

of the Guru.



As darkness is destroyed at the very sight of

the lamps, so is ignorance destroyed at the very

sight of the holy Guru.

Thanks for posting from the Kularnava tantra.

The Guru and it's functioning in the universe as Gurutattva.
Is a highly mysterious subject. highly mysterius.
For us being caught in the net of Maya, associating with a person
who is rooted in the tattwas above maya is a great enigma imo.
Not until enlightenment will we understand it. As it is not possible
for the mind caught in maya to understand it.
Therefore hard to write about it. Subtle.....
I have spent almost 30 years to try to get it. Still haven't.

Having been initiated and practiced with a Guru + reading
everything possible about other seekers experiences about it
from various traditions. A highly captivating subject for me...

The greatest gift a human being can receive is love and instruction from a guru / Avatar, the greatest gift a student can give is to seek out and listen and follow the guidance given.

True.


I think the experience of being in the prescence of an enlightened being and watch them in action is the best way to REALLY understand what a true Guru is, in a way that is somewhat more substantial then just reading about them.

I think Ammachi being perhaps the most assessible saint today for such a "study".
(Amma is not my Guru, even if I have met her a few times).


Amma is generally celebrated worldwide for her miraculous love energy expressed 24 hours around the clock, year after year.

Often she is holding huge crowded meetings in big cities where 10000th's of people are hugged by
her, sometimes for as long as 24 hours in a row. Try that anyone !

Most of us would sustain such
feats for 10 minutes holding a constant loving energy field.

Watch some videos from this seeing her having long rows of people coming up to her. It's fascinating.
Often she simultaneusly have Three rows of qeus streaming forth to her. Where she can simultaneously
give mantra intitiations, answer questions and generally holding hugging all these thousands of people.
She have a phenomenal memory and do not forget questions or issues from people, sometimes years ago.
This is reported and is generally moving people to tears when the recognise that she does really remember
issues on personal levels for many people asking questions year later and remembers.



Watch this video and imagine doing this almost everyday. For sometimes whole day and night. With little sleep and in same seat.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UqoMUowj7k


Meeting Amma can be a strong experience. I remember last time I saw her.
I was a bit shameful, because it is my firm belief that she knows all about you. Testimonies have showed that it is almost impossible to hide anything for her. Being part of universal consciousness as Vidya.
Then meeting her and recieving the look in her eyes being one of ecstatic unbounded total love, as one was her only child.
Total acceptance. That is life transforming.

It increases the faith in the Guru principle. That it is possible to be enlightened while being in a body.

All Guru's have not the public role Amma have of course. She is there for public display. My own thoughts about it is that as she is considered being an Avatar, she have a role to play in the lords Lila (play) now when Dharma is faultering worldwide.

Recently my wife told me that the princess of Norway had Amma as her Guru, having traveled to her Kerala ashram.
Celebrities like Jim Carrey and Russel Brand is endorsing her.


Well, that was a lot about Amma......:smile:
But as said, she can be an interesting study in order to understand more about the Gurutattwa (the cosmic Guruprinciple)


.

I agree bindu, for me I find Mother Meera `s teachings profoundly pragmatic, and I have had her darshan many times, she has definitely turbo charged my spiritual growth. I think its finding someone who `fits` you. You know when you have found your teacher. I`m fortunate as I have an intimate guru as well as Mother meera`s avatorial guidance.

I have met Mother Meera once. In germany. I was walking the fields there on the German countryside where she lived. It was a nice experience. 2005 or something. :smile:
I Read Andrew Harvey's book and decided to see her.

Yes its a beautiful location in a charming part of Germany. I have read Andrew Harvey`s longest journey too, a beautiful book. Ive been there several times, she also has been to England a few times as well. I reallyl love her darshan and pranam.

Seems like this thread have got a terrible rating.

As have a few threads in the Buddhist section.

Are these theads that bad ? :icon_eek:

I thought we were in the more compassionate eastern sections.:smile:

I think the stars are good ratings :)

who cares what anyone else thinks anyway

one star = terrible

Does seem like someone took exception to this thread, but it's shifted up to 'bad' now (2 stars) so on the improve :cool:

i see three. good thread. thanx for sharing

Rare is the one who realizes that, whether he or she is called guru or disciple, all are equally sacred embodiments of the Infinite Essence, Who is the only Guru there has ever been....


Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...7&postcount=34

Realizing we are all equally sacred embodiments is no big deal.

It is the realization of, the being that is a big deal. Working with a being that has truly realized that, takes things to a whole different level.

Hence, rare is the guru.

I think the ideal type of guru i want is someone, conversing with whom is like conversing with God, someone who's God connected, if anyone knows any such alive guru then please tell me.
Like i read that Neem Karoli Baba was telling the people around him their future, someone asked him that how does he know, he replied that he has a wireless connection with God. :)

A true Guru is outside the time concept past-present-future.

The typical experience in interacting with such a Guru is that they can be very precise in knowing the happenings occuiring in the time/space matrix.
Because they are one with the author of the script.:smile:

Wow Bindu, if you know any such guru who's alive and approachable then please tell me.

Sharing a story i read, i think it would be awesome if i get to interact with a guru in this way: (guru reading my mind and answering my questions)

Source: https://www.ramdass.org/its-all-a-show/

I think the intensity and heartfelt urge from the soul to get free is the fuel that draws to you a manifest guru in your outer world. The guru is within.
sometimes due to a need for accelerated spiritual growth, an outer guru form is manifested for that purpose.
Heartfelt prayer for that and the guru is bound to come. An universal law.
There is a saying. " When the disciple is ready the guru appears":smile:

knowing the future and other things is one thing. knowing god is another. not that one cant have the other. but if your looking for gossip your not going to find god imo. it is not a person, place, or thing. it is bliss and silence. and it's in that, the power of shakti that a guru works. they ars out there. but you got to know what your looking for. a psychic. or to transcend oneself to endless bliss.

The ideal Guru is great alright, but an ideal disciple is equally great, imho.

There has been cases where great gurus came , but the disciples were not able to properly understand the import of her teachings, and if they did, failed to put it into application. And if they did put it into application, failed to do so in adverse circumstances or situations.

I would say that it is only a quality disciple endowed with good study habits, work habits and courage who can take advantage of the presence and teachings of an ideal guru or spiritual teacher and earn grace and merit for himself.

A spiritual seeker must have excellent study and work habits along with courage to attain enlightenment, as seen in the case of Siddhartha who attained Nirvana.

well said Ajay, and I agree. Although Siddhartha paradoxically, found his way mostly by himself, which is extremely rare.

He worked with many, many teachers so I am not sure where you got that from.

He then even sent up a system of monks called bhikkhu's to teach Buddhism. So the Buddha was all about having a teacher/guru. You can't go very far in Buddhism without the empowerments and transmissions from a teacher.

Prince Siddhattha sought out two of the most eminent [guru's], Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. From them he learned systems of meditation which, from the descriptions in the texts, seem to have been forerunners of Raja Yoga. The Bodhisatta mastered their teachings and systems of meditation, but though he reached exalted levels of concentration (samadhi), he found these teachings insufficient, for they did not lead to the goal he was seeking. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

He then followed the ascetic way of life and found it insufficient, at which point he thought up the middle way, which he pursued to enlightenment.

I think it would be fair to say that he did find his way mostly by himself.

As to endorsing teachers/gurus, Buddha seems to have been very pro-independence, eg -

The Buddha did not praise his own teaching and attack his rivals. Rather, he told them:
It is right for you to doubt; doubt has arisen in you about dubious matters. Come, Kalamas, do not rely on oral tradition, or on the lineage of teachers, or on holy scriptures, or on abstract logic. Do not place blind trust in impressive personalities or in venerated gurus, but examine the issue for yourselves. When you know for yourselves that something is unwholesome and harmful, then you should reject it. And when you know for yourselves that something is wholesome and beneficial, then you should accept it and put it into practice.— AN 3.65
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

Overall Buddha himself is no guru poster boy, though the concept of needing empowerments and transmissions does seem to have arisen in later schools of Buddhism.

The Buddha had around 6 different teachers, mastering each system but found each one lacking.

It is when he realized the middle way that he became awakened.

The Buddha always said to test out what he said, he said that because he wants you to DO the practices... But he was very much a guru, setup a system of monks and told people to look to them for learning and guidance.

The 3 Jewels..

Take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma (teachings) and the Sangha (Buddhas and monks)...

Seems far from not needing a guru and to go it alone...

Going it alone is more like the blind leading the blind :smile:

Also, Theravāda uses empowerments as well :)

Exactly :icon_thumright:
Transmission/empowerments....add - ons to make the gurus/teachers look as though they have some power over others.

Oh my goodness, that is ego..

That has nothing to do with empowerments or transmissions.

If you are that caught up in ego you can't be a guru like is being described in the first post of this thread.

Have you got some reference for "6 different teachers"?

Buddha did choose to 'go it alone' after not finding what he wanted from the guru/teachers he initially studied with. He earned the title of Sammasambuddha having realized the Four Noble Truths and attained Nibbana, through his own enlightenment.

Isn't Buddha is considered an avatar ?
Not enlightened by step by step sadhana (spiritual practices).
Just like Krishna, Rama, Jesus ?
As avatara is considered awakened from birth. Isn't the the spiritual practices and life script of their life hard to analyse like ordinary saints and masters ?
Isn't it more like a play for show in the game ?

Here you go.. The 5 ascetics were masters of Yoga that he spent time with and mastered each of there methods.

For the next six years, Siddhartha lived an ascetic life and partook in its practices, studying and meditating using the words of various religious teachers as his guide. He practiced his new way of life with a group of five ascetics, and his dedication to his quest was so stunning that the five ascetics became Siddhartha's followers. When answers to his questions did not appear, however, he redoubled his efforts, enduring pain, fasting nearly to starvation, and refusing water.

Whatever he tried, Siddhartha could not reach the level of satisfaction he sought, until one day when a young girl offered him a bowl of rice. As he accepted it, he suddenly realized that corporeal austerity was not the means to achieve inner liberation, and that living under harsh physical constraints was not helping him achieve spiritual release. So he had his rice, drank water and bathed in the river. The five ascetics decided that Siddhartha had given up the ascetic life and would now follow the ways of the flesh, and they promptly left him. From then on, however, Siddhartha encouraged people to follow a path of balance instead of one characterized by extremism. He called this path the Middle Way.



You do understand that only you can take the step to enlightenment?

A teacher and a guru can help light the way, make it easier and faster but you have to take the steps.

That is all that is saying... not ignore them and just figure things out by yourself :smile:

No, he was not born enlightened and I don't believe Jesus was either despite the stories.

His life isn't hard to analyze because he gave us practices to experience it ourselves.

He worked with ascetics, and he recognised that they were too extreme, Buddha himself `discovered` the middle path, his accelerated growth after that understanding took him rapidly to realisation. Yes you are right, in any spiritual system most people cannot progress without the help of the more advanced. However, there are some souls, who have strived very very hard in previous lives, that eventually come back and are able to make those final strides to finish the path. Buddha was one such. This is what I was probably badly alluding to.

I tend to agree, everyone is born enlightened but we haven't realized it, when Buddha awoke he got in touch with that which is already within... Teachers/Gurus are without, Buddha looked within when his Teachers/Gurus failed and that is when he 'Awakened '

Hi Bindu,
I agree with Jonesy boy. Buddhas path, is one of escape from the human condition to liberation. Although many Hindu texts have assumed Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu, this is not so, his story shows this.
I`m now going to ruin my own argument lol, Because, despite Jesus`s 40 days in the desert, I believe that he was born fully god conscious, and was/is therefore an avatar. The 40 days was simply a preparation internally for the work he would do.
Having said all that, as your statement implies, Avatars are enigmatic, and we will never be able to figure them out or predict their behaviour, everything they do, is unique and perfect, but not neccesarily understandable from our standpoint.

He lived with the 5 ascetics and adopted an ascetic lifestyle, but they were not his teachers. They didn't each have a different method anyway, they were all ascetics. He did have 2 teachers earlier though, and tried their methods, but found them insufficient.

I am saying the Buddha didn't find a guru or teacher that was able to lead the way for him, why do you find this so threatening?

You don't seem to be able to accept the Buddha's experience with gurus as it was, and his success without them, you instead refer to how you think I should perceive guru's.

It just takes a bit of objectivity, seeing how it was for Buddha, his relation to guru's, not your relation to guru's, or defending your opinion of guru's.

It is not hard at all django.. I know you are against a teacher or a guru because you post against them all the time.

What you don't get is that he did have teachers.. by your admission two of them but he went beyond what they taught.. beyond what was know by Brahmanism.

But the key point is he did go looking and worked with various teachers, achieved what they taught but realized it was not enough, that there was more.

What he taught and the monastic order he founded was the middle way that went beyond the cessation of Brahmanism.

How do you reach that in Buddhism?

With the guidance of a teacher :smile:

How do you learn Buddhism, the system of practices that make up Buddhism?

You reach out to a tradition and learn from a member of that tradition. That person who guides and teaches you the methods of meditation and energy work is your teacher and with greater trust he becomes your guru.

In Kashmir Shaivism which this OP is referring to a lama would not be a real guru, a Rinpoche would not be a real guru. Only one who is like Siva, that has realized oneness is a rare guru.. The kind they recommend.

Now let me ask you, why are you so against someone helping someone?

You seem anti help, guru, teacher, etc.. in many of your posts. Beyond your perceived view that it has to be about power, authority issues or someone trying to be better than someone else... do you have any real reason beyond assigning negative intent on others or from experience?

He told his first disciples to spread the Dharma far and wide.

Go forth for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction. Teach the Dharma which is beautiful in the beginning, beautiful in the middle and beautiful at the end. Proclaim both the letter and the spirit of the holy life completely fulfilled and perfectly pure.[ N1 ]

He also hoped that after his final Nirvana the teachings would continue to spread and he instructed his disciples, both ordained and lay, accordingly.


I shall not die until the monks, the nuns, the laymen and the laywomen have become deeply learned, wise and well-trained, remembering the teachings, proficient in the lesser and greater doctrines and virtuous; until, having learned the teachings themselves, they are able to tell it to others, teach it, make it known, establish it, open it up, explain it and make it clear; until they are able to refute false doctrines taught by others and are able to spread the convincing and liberating truth abroad. I shall not die until the holy life has become successful, prosperous, undespised and popular; until it has become well proclaimed among both gods and men.[ N2 ]

26. The Buddha's motive in proclaiming the Dharma was compassion. He said: "Whatever has had to be done by a teacher out of compassion, for the welfare of his disciples, I have done for you.

...For example, he compared a person who fails to practice the teachings he proclaimed to a beautiful flower without fragrance

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...isciples06.htm

Theravada, the "Doctrine of the Elders," is the school of Buddhism that draws its scriptural inspiration from the*Tipitaka, or Pali canon, which scholars generally agree contains the earliest surviving record of the Buddha's teachings.


In Theravada, a Buddha refers to one who has become enlightened through his own efforts and insight without a teacher..

Do you have a link for that because Theravada is a teacher based system and even that tradition doesn't make up a different story of the Buddha's life..

He had teachers... many... a simple fact.. I know people who are against teachers don't like that idea... or fact :D

History seems more concerned with the fact that the Buddha couldn't find what he was looking for in the teachers that were available to him, and that he found the answer he was looking for within.

Just referring to the Buddha himself, and his path only.

I'm not trying to imply that all guru's are no good, though I think most are not, there might well be that rare guru that does actually know what he's talking about, really I'm just claiming that the Buddha specifically did find his way mostly by himself as peteyzen asserted in the previous page.


I think you have a very strong need to overemphasize the fact that he sought out teachers and learnt their methods, which no one here is denying, but you seem to underemphasize the fact that they could not teach him what he wanted to know, so then he found this knowledge within himself, from the guru within.