awareness and freedom
 

Choice is only one kind of freedom. We all have it. But how 'free' are our choices? What if our conscious choices are controlled and dominated by addiction, desire, neurosis, fear, anger, etc.? Are we really free?

The truth is that we're conditioned. And, according to J. Krishnamurti, it's only through AWARENESS that we can be free.

If we can observe, watch, be aware of, in our moment to moment experience, the unfolding of the contents of our minds, we could perhaps find a kind of freedom from conditioning.

For most people (myself included), the conditioning is in control. But if we can be aware of that conditioning, if we can observe it, we might gain a power over it. Then what JK called 'creative emptiness' can come into being. That creativity is there only when the conditioning of the past has been recognized through direct observation.

I think it's so important to be aware of what's going on in our mind. Only through such awareness can there be freedom.

Hi,

My understanding is that mindfulness, as you have described, is just one aspect of this freedom you seek. The observations are useful to have for sure. However evolving the self from restricted conditioning is not automatic once these things have been noticed. You must learn the art of working with your intellect through heart centered reasoning and intuition.

The mind is a composit of the brain(intellect), the heart, and our 3rd eye which brings us that intuition. This integration effort Can lead to self empowerment. This is if the energy of your intent for those efforts is human evolution. Then the freedom you speak of becomes established. Until that time you may think you are free when you are in fact just using a more highly elevated slave mind.

John

How far is it possible to go with this, realistically? We can sit here and as it's a Spiritual forum wax lyrically about the flowery dress- and floppy hat-wearing Spirituality all we like, but Spirituality is only a very small part of what's going on inside us. We are dominated by more than most can even imagine, meaning no disrespect of course. We'd have to delve into psychology, neuroscience, genetics, epigenetics and into the darkest recesses of our psyches to even begin, and that's the darkest place in the Universe. We'd have to ask the tough questions, like "What are the reasons I am Spiritual?"

Had your genes been switched differently you wouldn't be on this forum, because you simply wouldn't have been able to process anything 'Spiritual'. By the same token, the chances are that one of the reasons you're Spiritual is because of certain genes. You have your dad's nose and your grandmother's Spirituality lol. Those are scary thoughts, aren't they? And considering you process all this Spiritual information - read books and posts, watch YouTubes etc then think about it - how much of your Spirituality is conditioning? You are what you 'eat', Spiritually too.

But how do you define 'free' and 'awareness'? What if you had the awareness that you are in a place where the way you are, the conditioning and the perceptual lack of control means you are uniquely suited for the purposes of your Spiritual development, whatever shape or form that may take? Because you being you, with all your 'programming' etc are asking these questions, having this Journey/experience....... If you were any other way then wouldn't it be a very different Journey/experience/existence? Are you in truth conditioned/programmed or are you in truth finely tuned to fulfil your Life's Purpose/Karmic Agreements....if you believe in such?????

What about free of your own perceptions, letting go of what doesn't serve you to find something that does?

Sit yourself down quietly and ask yourself a simple question - "How different would the Universe be if I was different?" If your moniker was 'cranky soul' rather than Happy Soul? :smile: And not just for yourself but for the people around you too.

My experience with addiction paints mindfulness poignantly. There comes a craving and I obey it, or else there comes a craving and I am mindful of it and use grounding techniques and self-talk until it passes.

Mindfulness definitely makes you more free, but I think there is a limit to it. As the above poster stated, some people are not even capable of mindfulness, and some have great mindfulness ability.

I'd say I'm 1% free and 99% automated.

So a teeny peek at J. Krishnamurti also raises some red flags for me.

I see Theosophical Society links, "The Maitreya" is mentioned & Helena Blavatsky leading to Alice Bailey & Ascended Master Teachings - yuk.

Crowley was the only one missing.

There is no awakening - you were born so here you are.

The physical tangible reality is enough of a minefield as it is - without setting oneself the impossible task of becoming "higher beings".

A true freedom is to understand that defining your own existence by someone elses spiritual rules & ideals is a conditioning all in itself.


There are going to be things like addiction, desire, neurosis, fear & anger in life - there will also be moderation, patience, cool heads in times of crisis etc etc it is all part of life.

Addiction is a spectrum - it's knowing that a good feeling can be instant - coffee is a simple but absolutely perfect example of this. A person is not insane for choosing instant gratification, its the consequences that come after that are the stinger.

Neurosis or fear are similar - an indian child worries that when he gets water from the well that a tiger might eat him. It plays on his mind over & over and he does whatever he can to avoid the task.

Truth is - a Tiger may eat you - you can be learn to be confident in your own assessments & build confidence but the Tiger IS a risk.

All the spirituality in the world doesn't out compete reality.

I have a counter understanding of freedom. Rather than freedom being defined by a multiplicity of choices, I see it more as a freedom from choices. "Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"......if one knows the truth there are no other choices. The truth sets one free from the distractions and temptations of many choices. One that is focused and disciplined has reached the state of not being overcome by choices. This freedom is a development that comes by time and wisdom. The road to achieving this is basically by trial and error......with errors being defined as bad choices that are no longer viewed as choices.

Absolutely. This is the opening of the eyes, coming to terms with not just social conditioning, rites and taboos but how one is manipulated by: religious and quasi-religious groups, commerce, occupational stuff and a few other things.

It doesn't set you entirely free as you'll almost certainly have to interface with society at large to be able to survive but you're in a position to navigate your own way through; manipulate it to your advantage. You're no longer vulnerable to its tricks to get you back in line.

So it's a mix of direct observation, experience and empathy (in your observation) with the outcomes of others' experiences.

.

Hello there John :smile:
Agreed and good points.

Becoming an elevated slave mind is still a critical and necessary first step :D. ...As we work toward integration and fuller manifestation of that composite mind, in right alignment with our centre.

This integration and manifestation is a lifelong journey of day-to-day conscious choices noted and taken in word and deed, or not.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

Hello there Molearner :smile:
This to me speaks to a greater degree of conscious choice in alignment with one's centre. The more we manifest this alignment in intent, thought, word, and deed, the more clarity we bring to our awareness and to our choices.

As you say, most choices will not appeal because they are not right-aligned with who we are at core, and only that which is true to our centre finds that deeper and vaster resonance.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

Hey there GS I really liked some of these points. :smile:

First, I have to say, flowery dress/floppy hat spirituality is great too, and don't tell me you've no soft spot in your heart for it :wink: hahaha!

Second, I would say, without question, if you were a different soul and a different person and your spiritual path was thus different... then we are talking about an entirely different universe/realm/expression of reality. Not the reality you and I and the rest are in right now, but a different one altogether.

That's why when I got frustrated a year or so back and said to myself, I am tired of this and don't care to engage with X in future lives, I was a bit shocked when Michael showed up and said with great seriousness, to my face, is that your true intention? Because when folks confirm that yes, it is, then the entire structure or web of reality has to change to allow for all that is to now be something different in future, where you have no further soul work or resolution with your closest soul fam or whomever it is. And all their journeys are similarly impacted. This was all conveyed in a flash.

And I said, no of course not and that's not what I want. I want things to be as they are with no alteration. Yikes. And he said quite seriously, OK, then your true intention has been recorded. And then with great relief, we talked normally for a bit about how much humanity's spirit guide team relies on us to do our part and how they come to rely on us for that...(to strive to find our truth and to share our humanity in lovingkindness and equanimity) and not to give up, essentially.

I told him I felt like a bit of an idiot for having asked, without considering all the repercussions. But he said that actually he was surprised I hadn't asked sooner (as I gather many do ask)...LOL. Dunno, suppose we all reach a limit from time to time, hahaha...:biggrin: but the wise thing is to let it pass, and allow things to be as they are so that we may guide them to the future that we bring into being. Whatever that may be at present I've certainly no idea. But I do have an idea in my heart of how it can be for humanity in all our future nows, and that gives me great hope.

Last, I would say that there is no cutting out the ephemeral from the physical, as the physical emanates from the ephemeral. Kabbalah represents this concept rather nicely, but it can be found all over. So I would say rather that our genes in whatever fashion they come together, have all emanated from spirit, as has the rest of the material realm. However, I would also say that spirit continues to influence our material incarnation, via its other products...our culture, our environment, and our personal and intergenerational impacts of consciousness and emotion. All of spirit, ultimately, despite the seemingly (or actual?) infinite permutations into the physical.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

Thanks everybody for sharing your thoughts.

You all have some good points imo.

^^^Although I see the "physical" as just one end of the spectrum I'd agree. Some people seem to think the spiritual holds the answers to all the woes of their world. They want quick solutions rather than critical examination and work to put things right on the mundane.

In part I'd blame the New Age Industry that makes a huge amount of money out of persuading people that it has all those answers which it doesn't. It might have some answers but the tendency to lead people up a blind alley is all too rife. And youtube has a lot to answer for too. There's a link elsewhere to a youtube on affirmation. Turns out it isn't just a perversion of classical affirmation but it's one of these "feel better" things that right-minded people would be doing naturally (aside from it having a few contradictions!) Optimism and well-being are the norm for some.

All religions were right for that culture at that time, perhaps the exception to that is Christianity thanks to Constantine but it did keep them under control. If religion is a reflection of the culture, what does that say about today's culture and Spirituality? I saw a brilliant article in one of the papers - "the snowflake generation" and retreating into Spirituality is a symptom of that.

Everybody has an agenda, everybody has reasons for adopting Spirituality in the first place and for their belief framework for being the way it is. Keeping it with the gist of the OP I guess awareness and freedom comes easily within Spirituality, Spirituality itself is anything people say it is so everything under that banner becomes the same. Spirituality is built on human nature.

7luminaries,

This caught my attention. Especially this part: " And then with great relief, we talked normally for a bit about how much humanity's spirit guide team relies on us to do our part and how they come to rely on us for that...(to strive to find our truth and to share our humanity in lovingkindness and equanimity) and not to give up, essentially. "

When I became an adult in a church setting we often prayed a blessing for new born children in the church family. It occurred to me that the same had been done for me in my infancy......all of course without my awareness or consciousess of it. I realized the possibility that this was not without effect.......perhaps it impacted my life without my awareness of it at that time.....only considering that possibility many years later.

As we grow older we become conscious, to a degree, of the support that others give to us.........teachers, fans in sports activities that we participate in, etc. My wife, for instance, feels a strong visceral connection with her long deceased mother. In effect feeling her presence, guidance and love.

Essentially, I am suggesting that our spiritual journey, perhaps, it not as quite personal as we believe it to be. We are the recipients of unperceived grace and this should serve as a reminder of the gratitude that we owe humanity and the call to a humility that we should adapt and embrace.

Wow Molearner...beautifully said! :hug:
And I'm glad that bit resonated with you :smile: I highlighted some of your bits that resonated with me too.

I would say as we grow wiser (and hopefully as we grow older hahaha), we become aware of how very important it is to support one another, in love and kindness, in courteous discussion and respectful exploration of so many of the complexities and challenges we will encounter on our journeys.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

A very long time ago now, I used to be a Theosophist.

I didn't go much for H.P.B, even though I could see a deep truth in some of her teachings, but not all of them and it left a lot to be desired.

I also did not like the teachings of Alice Bailey and that conditioned/manufactured 'guru', J. Krishnamurti.

I went the other way and followed Arthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe), Geoffrey Hodson and Manly Hall into the more esoteric side of it.

Some of us/most of us...even the 'spiritual realists' are just content to live in the world and within their own current perception of it because that is 'all there is' by their definition and by their own belief systems, they make it so and as long as they are happy, whose to say any different?

However, some of us...through our own belief systems understand there's something 'more than that' in all we can see/understand but the realists cannot and they will be the first to call it a 'delusion' or a 'fantasy' and of course they will say that because they are realists and not transcendentalists...this doesn't make it any more or less real to us, however.

What you believe is your own truth is your own 'version of things' which bears no semblance of relevance to another who may have had a contradictory experience and can honestly say "sorry, but I don't understand you" and no matter how much you try and explain it, they will still say "sorry, but I don't understand you" because there's no familiar relational framing being presented.

How interesting !

I'm of the belief that a lot of posters don't even realise that they subscribe to Theosophist ideology or that they espouse notions that are damaging - they believe themselves aware & yet clearly they are not.

For me or as I always advise any young person - being honest with yourself has to come first.

There is a distortion of the "it's my truth" that is perpetuated by certain individuals.

They act with Malice & are subversive due to personal bias yet they will conveniently "not subscribe to labels" if called out on such behaviour. They shirk the responsibility for their actions & continue to speak untruthfully.

That is the Satanic side that we've talked about elsewhere,
spirituality is not a license to act selfishly or maliciously - to manipulate others good traits.

I'll see these people on the forum slowly introduce dangerous practices or doctrines & champion their merits but claiming no responsibility inside themselves for essentially telling lies.

Rare people such as yourself really have studied & treated the spiritual path as a serious look within & without. Contemplated opposing viewpoints & took risks looking for answers.

Others merely cheat by throwing around buzz words & convincing themselves they are in the exact same category.

I can be quite curt at times which the honest folks on here find offensive, the charlatans & perpetrators of untruths really hate it so it must have its place in conversion at times.

We can all be misguided at times, but those being false act as a distraction to genuine seekers.

After your post, I went to sleep, deep in thought.

Basically everything "New Age" came from the Theosophy movement, which has been filtered out and watered down over the years.

In the attempts to bring "Eastern teachings" to a "Western audience" a lot gets filtered, adapted, dumbed down, has capitalist undertones and emphasis...and becomes the equivalent of "McSpirituality".

I doubt you'd find a "New Ager" in India...I wonder why? /sarcasm

Yes, even though I am a 'Westerner', I have gone into the whole Vedic culture..the whole roots of Aryan influence...and the lifestyle of this ancient tradition was just so rich...so deep...so colourful...and with each millennia, it's getting lost due to the influence of the Western cultures feeding it back.

When I go to an ancient temple like Parambanan in Indonesia....Mahabalipuran in India, I touch the structures...I feel stuff. Things were so much different back then...esotericism was breathed in and out and it was an everyday part of life. There was so much 'connectivity' within spirituality..it is all disconnected and disjointed now.

I am also of the awareness that I seemed to have been born in the 'wrong time' because I can relate totally to stuff that went on over about 500 years ago, but not now...and I'm still trying to find out why that is and why I have been 'spiritually born' at a time when all the old ways and old teachings are basically defunct and forgotten....and nobody wants to know or to learn.