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  #1  
Old 23-02-2018, 08:18 AM
happy soul happy soul is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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awareness and freedom

Choice is only one kind of freedom. We all have it. But how 'free' are our choices? What if our conscious choices are controlled and dominated by addiction, desire, neurosis, fear, anger, etc.? Are we really free?

The truth is that we're conditioned. And, according to J. Krishnamurti, it's only through AWARENESS that we can be free.

If we can observe, watch, be aware of, in our moment to moment experience, the unfolding of the contents of our minds, we could perhaps find a kind of freedom from conditioning.

For most people (myself included), the conditioning is in control. But if we can be aware of that conditioning, if we can observe it, we might gain a power over it. Then what JK called 'creative emptiness' can come into being. That creativity is there only when the conditioning of the past has been recognized through direct observation.

I think it's so important to be aware of what's going on in our mind. Only through such awareness can there be freedom.
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  #2  
Old 23-02-2018, 10:51 AM
John32241 John32241 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul

If we can observe, watch, be aware of, in our moment to moment experience, the unfolding of the contents of our minds, we could perhaps find a kind of freedom from conditioning.

For most people (myself included), the conditioning is in control. But if we can be aware of that conditioning, if we can observe it, we might gain a power over it. Then what JK called 'creative emptiness' can come into being. That creativity is there only when the conditioning of the past has been recognized through direct observation.

I think it's so important to be aware of what's going on in our mind. Only through such awareness can there be freedom.

Hi,

My understanding is that mindfulness, as you have described, is just one aspect of this freedom you seek. The observations are useful to have for sure. However evolving the self from restricted conditioning is not automatic once these things have been noticed. You must learn the art of working with your intellect through heart centered reasoning and intuition.

The mind is a composit of the brain(intellect), the heart, and our 3rd eye which brings us that intuition. This integration effort Can lead to self empowerment. This is if the energy of your intent for those efforts is human evolution. Then the freedom you speak of becomes established. Until that time you may think you are free when you are in fact just using a more highly elevated slave mind.

John
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  #3  
Old 23-02-2018, 11:56 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul
I think it's so important to be aware of what's going on in our mind. Only through such awareness can there be freedom.
How far is it possible to go with this, realistically? We can sit here and as it's a Spiritual forum wax lyrically about the flowery dress- and floppy hat-wearing Spirituality all we like, but Spirituality is only a very small part of what's going on inside us. We are dominated by more than most can even imagine, meaning no disrespect of course. We'd have to delve into psychology, neuroscience, genetics, epigenetics and into the darkest recesses of our psyches to even begin, and that's the darkest place in the Universe. We'd have to ask the tough questions, like "What are the reasons I am Spiritual?"

Had your genes been switched differently you wouldn't be on this forum, because you simply wouldn't have been able to process anything 'Spiritual'. By the same token, the chances are that one of the reasons you're Spiritual is because of certain genes. You have your dad's nose and your grandmother's Spirituality lol. Those are scary thoughts, aren't they? And considering you process all this Spiritual information - read books and posts, watch YouTubes etc then think about it - how much of your Spirituality is conditioning? You are what you 'eat', Spiritually too.

But how do you define 'free' and 'awareness'? What if you had the awareness that you are in a place where the way you are, the conditioning and the perceptual lack of control means you are uniquely suited for the purposes of your Spiritual development, whatever shape or form that may take? Because you being you, with all your 'programming' etc are asking these questions, having this Journey/experience....... If you were any other way then wouldn't it be a very different Journey/experience/existence? Are you in truth conditioned/programmed or are you in truth finely tuned to fulfil your Life's Purpose/Karmic Agreements....if you believe in such?????

What about free of your own perceptions, letting go of what doesn't serve you to find something that does?

Sit yourself down quietly and ask yourself a simple question - "How different would the Universe be if I was different?" If your moniker was 'cranky soul' rather than Happy Soul? And not just for yourself but for the people around you too.
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  #4  
Old 23-02-2018, 03:42 PM
lazydullard lazydullard is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 38
 
My experience with addiction paints mindfulness poignantly. There comes a craving and I obey it, or else there comes a craving and I am mindful of it and use grounding techniques and self-talk until it passes.

Mindfulness definitely makes you more free, but I think there is a limit to it. As the above poster stated, some people are not even capable of mindfulness, and some have great mindfulness ability.

I'd say I'm 1% free and 99% automated.
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  #5  
Old 23-02-2018, 05:46 PM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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So a teeny peek at J. Krishnamurti also raises some red flags for me.

I see Theosophical Society links, "The Maitreya" is mentioned & Helena Blavatsky leading to Alice Bailey & Ascended Master Teachings - yuk.

Crowley was the only one missing.


There is no awakening - you were born so here you are.

The physical tangible reality is enough of a minefield as it is - without setting oneself the impossible task of becoming "higher beings".

A true freedom is to understand that defining your own existence by someone elses spiritual rules & ideals is a conditioning all in itself.


There are going to be things like addiction, desire, neurosis, fear & anger in life - there will also be moderation, patience, cool heads in times of crisis etc etc it is all part of life.

Addiction is a spectrum - it's knowing that a good feeling can be instant - coffee is a simple but absolutely perfect example of this. A person is not insane for choosing instant gratification, its the consequences that come after that are the stinger.

Neurosis or fear are similar - an indian child worries that when he gets water from the well that a tiger might eat him. It plays on his mind over & over and he does whatever he can to avoid the task.

Truth is - a Tiger may eat you - you can be learn to be confident in your own assessments & build confidence but the Tiger IS a risk.

All the spirituality in the world doesn't out compete reality.
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Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


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  #6  
Old 23-02-2018, 08:30 PM
Molearner Molearner is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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I have a counter understanding of freedom. Rather than freedom being defined by a multiplicity of choices, I see it more as a freedom from choices. "Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"......if one knows the truth there are no other choices. The truth sets one free from the distractions and temptations of many choices. One that is focused and disciplined has reached the state of not being overcome by choices. This freedom is a development that comes by time and wisdom. The road to achieving this is basically by trial and error......with errors being defined as bad choices that are no longer viewed as choices.
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  #7  
Old 23-02-2018, 09:10 PM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Location: UK
Posts: 6,853
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul
For most people (myself included), the conditioning is in control. But if we can be aware of that conditioning, if we can observe it, we might gain a power over it. Then what JK called 'creative emptiness' can come into being. That creativity is there only when the conditioning of the past has been recognized through direct observation.

I think it's so important to be aware of what's going on in our mind. Only through such awareness can there be freedom.
Absolutely. This is the opening of the eyes, coming to terms with not just social conditioning, rites and taboos but how one is manipulated by: religious and quasi-religious groups, commerce, occupational stuff and a few other things.

It doesn't set you entirely free as you'll almost certainly have to interface with society at large to be able to survive but you're in a position to navigate your own way through; manipulate it to your advantage. You're no longer vulnerable to its tricks to get you back in line.

So it's a mix of direct observation, experience and empathy (in your observation) with the outcomes of others' experiences.

.
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  #8  
Old 23-02-2018, 09:30 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John32241
Hi,

My understanding is that mindfulness, as you have described, is just one aspect of this freedom you seek. The observations are useful to have for sure. However evolving the self from restricted conditioning is not automatic once these things have been noticed. You must learn the art of working with your intellect through heart centered reasoning and intuition.

The mind is a composit of the brain(intellect), the heart, and our 3rd eye which brings us that intuition. This integration effort Can lead to self empowerment. This is if the energy of your intent for those efforts is human evolution. Then the freedom you speak of becomes established. Until that time you may think you are free when you are in fact just using a more highly elevated slave mind.

John
Hello there John
Agreed and good points.

Becoming an elevated slave mind is still a critical and necessary first step . ...As we work toward integration and fuller manifestation of that composite mind, in right alignment with our centre.

This integration and manifestation is a lifelong journey of day-to-day conscious choices noted and taken in word and deed, or not.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #9  
Old 23-02-2018, 09:35 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
I have a counter understanding of freedom. Rather than freedom being defined by a multiplicity of choices, I see it more as a freedom from choices. "Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"......if one knows the truth there are no other choices. The truth sets one free from the distractions and temptations of many choices. One that is focused and disciplined has reached the state of not being overcome by choices. This freedom is a development that comes by time and wisdom. The road to achieving this is basically by trial and error......with errors being defined as bad choices that are no longer viewed as choices.
Hello there Molearner
This to me speaks to a greater degree of conscious choice in alignment with one's centre. The more we manifest this alignment in intent, thought, word, and deed, the more clarity we bring to our awareness and to our choices.

As you say, most choices will not appeal because they are not right-aligned with who we are at core, and only that which is true to our centre finds that deeper and vaster resonance.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #10  
Old 23-02-2018, 10:02 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
How far is it possible to go with this, realistically? We can sit here and as it's a Spiritual forum wax lyrically about the flowery dress- and floppy hat-wearing Spirituality all we like, but Spirituality is only a very small part of what's going on inside us. We are dominated by more than most can even imagine, meaning no disrespect of course. We'd have to delve into psychology, neuroscience, genetics, epigenetics and into the darkest recesses of our psyches to even begin, and that's the darkest place in the Universe. We'd have to ask the tough questions, like "What are the reasons I am Spiritual?"

Had your genes been switched differently you wouldn't be on this forum, because you simply wouldn't have been able to process anything 'Spiritual'. By the same token, the chances are that one of the reasons you're Spiritual is because of certain genes. You have your dad's nose and your grandmother's Spirituality lol. Those are scary thoughts, aren't they? And considering you process all this Spiritual information - read books and posts, watch YouTubes etc then think about it - how much of your Spirituality is conditioning? You are what you 'eat', Spiritually too.

But how do you define 'free' and 'awareness'? What if you had the awareness that you are in a place where the way you are, the conditioning and the perceptual lack of control means you are uniquely suited for the purposes of your Spiritual development, whatever shape or form that may take? Because you being you, with all your 'programming' etc are asking these questions, having this Journey/experience....... If you were any other way then wouldn't it be a very different Journey/experience/existence? Are you in truth conditioned/programmed or are you in truth finely tuned to fulfil your Life's Purpose/Karmic Agreements....if you believe in such?????

What about free of your own perceptions, letting go of what doesn't serve you to find something that does?

Sit yourself down quietly and ask yourself a simple question - "How different would the Universe be if I was different?" If your moniker was 'cranky soul' rather than Happy Soul? And not just for yourself but for the people around you too.

Hey there GS I really liked some of these points.

First, I have to say, flowery dress/floppy hat spirituality is great too, and don't tell me you've no soft spot in your heart for it hahaha!

Second, I would say, without question, if you were a different soul and a different person and your spiritual path was thus different... then we are talking about an entirely different universe/realm/expression of reality. Not the reality you and I and the rest are in right now, but a different one altogether.

That's why when I got frustrated a year or so back and said to myself, I am tired of this and don't care to engage with X in future lives, I was a bit shocked when Michael showed up and said with great seriousness, to my face, is that your true intention? Because when folks confirm that yes, it is, then the entire structure or web of reality has to change to allow for all that is to now be something different in future, where you have no further soul work or resolution with your closest soul fam or whomever it is. And all their journeys are similarly impacted. This was all conveyed in a flash.

And I said, no of course not and that's not what I want. I want things to be as they are with no alteration. Yikes. And he said quite seriously, OK, then your true intention has been recorded. And then with great relief, we talked normally for a bit about how much humanity's spirit guide team relies on us to do our part and how they come to rely on us for that...(to strive to find our truth and to share our humanity in lovingkindness and equanimity) and not to give up, essentially.

I told him I felt like a bit of an idiot for having asked, without considering all the repercussions. But he said that actually he was surprised I hadn't asked sooner (as I gather many do ask)...LOL. Dunno, suppose we all reach a limit from time to time, hahaha... but the wise thing is to let it pass, and allow things to be as they are so that we may guide them to the future that we bring into being. Whatever that may be at present I've certainly no idea. But I do have an idea in my heart of how it can be for humanity in all our future nows, and that gives me great hope.

Last, I would say that there is no cutting out the ephemeral from the physical, as the physical emanates from the ephemeral. Kabbalah represents this concept rather nicely, but it can be found all over. So I would say rather that our genes in whatever fashion they come together, have all emanated from spirit, as has the rest of the material realm. However, I would also say that spirit continues to influence our material incarnation, via its other products...our culture, our environment, and our personal and intergenerational impacts of consciousness and emotion. All of spirit, ultimately, despite the seemingly (or actual?) infinite permutations into the physical.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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