Christ's Godhood

[Honza]

I guess that most people accept that a historical figure known as Jesus Christ actually existed. But the question that springs to many peoples mind is: was he really God? Was he divine?

The question concerns Christ's Godhood. Was he imagining that he was the Son Of God? Was he deluded?

The trouble is that there is no guarantee that Christ is God. Who would know? We are left to speculate but not know.

The slavation of mankind might depend on the fact of whether Christ was really God or not. But no one knows for sure. It is a gamble!

People often bring Christs Godhood into question. If there is a Satan then he will be very interested in the state of Christ Godhood too. So that he can undermine the crucifiction.

How centred in God is Christ?

[Blaze]

Does it make a difference to you? And if it does what is it exactly?

[Honza]

Does it make a difference to you? And if it does what is it exactly?

The difference it makes is whether I should wholeheartedly become Christian and start to rely on Christ.

If Christ was divine and sent by God then he would be the simplest solution to all my problems. I could hop onto the Christian bus and be given a ride home back to heaven.

But if Christ's Godhood is in dispute then that ticket to salvation would be in dispute too.

[Blaze]

If Christ is all the solutions then he's simply God. But when there were and there are billions of people who were living before Christ and after Christ who dunno anything about him or nor care, then they should all be in pain and go to hell per se.

[Honza]

You forget reincarnation. The beings before Christ eventually come to know of his existence. Because they are born in a time when he is around.

I'm not suggesting that Christ is the ONLY way to God. But rather that he is Gods helping hand.

[Blaze]

There have been billions of people living after Christ too and be sure not all of 'em have heard of him nor they all believed in him. The conditions of earthly life won't let one individual to rule 'em all. I think if you look at the history or in general everything you will notice that. In able to understand God we need to understand life, straight from our own being, not what Christ is or was.

[psychoslice]

No Jesus was not god, he declared god that was within him, as god is also within you and me, the sad fact is that nearly all Christians believe that Jesus himself was god, they believe that they need him to be saved, its not Jesus the man that saves them its their own inner Christ, the Christ that is within all. the man Jesus has been idolized, he has been put up on a pedestal that no one can reach, if any do arise above this idol they are seen as been blasphemous, when in truth the very ones that crawl on their hands and knees, begging to this idol are themselves blasphemous.

[Bluegreen]

Based on my belief in the evolution of the soul (whether or not by means of reincarnation), Jesus evolved to where he could reunite with the Source. That would make him God.

It says in Corinthians : "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"

How would you interpret this keeping in mind the evolution of the soul?

The soul continues to evolve just as the universe continues to expand.

[Rivendoah]

No Jesus was not god, he declared god that was within him, as god is also within you and me, the sad fact is that nearly all Christians believe that Jesus himself was god, they believe that they need him to be saved, its not Jesus the man that saves them its their own inner Christ, the Christ that is within all. the man Jesus has been idolized, he has been put up on a pedestal that no one can reach, if any do arise above this idol they are seen as been blasphemous, when in truth the very ones that crawl on their hands and knees, begging to this idol are themselves blasphemous.

I am with you on this... many have made an idol out of jesus and the bible...
If jesus lived as he has been written into the bible, then I believe what jesus was trying to say was the we are all the children of god... he included... he was not sent down as the one and only son of god... but rather is an advanced soul who integrated the full meaning of this as truth... it was why he was crucified... it scared the hell our of the spiritual and political leaders of the day...

[Mind's Eye]

The difference it makes is whether I should wholeheartedly become Christian and start to rely on Christ.

If Christ was divine and sent by God then he would be the simplest solution to all my problems. I could hop onto the Christian bus and be given a ride home back to heaven.

But if Christ's Godhood is in dispute then that ticket to salvation would be in dispute too.

I think there's too much confusion about this subject these days. I look at it this way; all religious and spirirtual paths teach pretty much the same thing: Love one another, be charitable, help others, love God, know that you are more than flesh and bone, but a spiritual being etc etc... the list goes on and on.

Millions upon millions of people have had near death experiences and have seen the light and a place that looks like heaven... some were Christians people, others were not. Some didn't believe in God at all.

Bottom line: If you want to follow Christ and Christianity... then do so. If you want to follow Allah or Buddah... then do that.

All of these paths teach the same basic principles on some level or another. The book, The Revelation of the Magi tells the story of the first Christmas from the wise mens perspective. In this very old document, the wise men say that the Christ child spoke to them from the star that guided them... And he told them that he had appeared to man many times before

If this be the case, then no religion is without Christ. I for one believe this to be true.

[moke64916]

Does it matter? What is your first gut instinct about it? In my opinion just mine, just a suggestion I would go with that.

[sprinter]

I guess that most people accept that a historical figure known as Jesus Christ actually existed. But the question that springs to many peoples mind is: was he really God? Was he divine?

The question concerns Christ's Godhood. Was he imagining that he was the Son Of God? Was he deluded?

The trouble is that there is no guarantee that Christ is God. Who would know? We are left to speculate but not know.

The slavation of mankind might depend on the fact of whether Christ was really God or not. But no one knows for sure. It is a gamble!

People often bring Christs Godhood into question. If there is a Satan then he will be very interested in the state of Christ Godhood too. So that he can undermine the crucifiction.

How centred in God is Christ?



If he is not God then who is Emmanuel- God with us. matt 1:23
" " who could Thomas have been referring to at John 20:28 ?
"why would he say "before Abraham was I AM."?
"how was the church purchased with Gods own blood. Acts 20 28. ? etc, etc

I could go on all day, obviously the Bible especially the new testament, doesn't make much sense if Jesus is not who He claims to be.

This is why I laugh (big belly laughs)when I hear people deny his claim to be God then go on to say how we could all benefit from His wise teachings, it makes me wonder if the same people recommend we all listen to the babble at local psych-hospital for our day to day guidance. :wink:

[Triner]

Based on my belief in the evolution of the soul (whether or not by means of reincarnation), Jesus evolved to where he could reunite with the Source. That would make him God.

It says in Corinthians : "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"

How would you interpret this keeping in mind the evolution of the soul?

The soul continues to evolve just as the universe continues to expand.

I was watching a show a few weeks back in which a Rosicrucian said something like this... and this is just a paraphasing of it 'cause I can't remember the exact words...

If Jesus were born God, then that gives us no hope of acheiving what he was because we weren't born God. We have to work towards it.

However, if Jesus were born a man and, during his life, became one with God then we all have the hope of doing the same.

So it goes along with what you said Bluegreen. It also goes along with what Psychoslice said as well. I think if makes much more sense. We can all achieve "Heaven", or Oneness with God ourselves, just as Jesus did.

I can see how many organized religions would want us to believe the first sentence. It keeps us separate from God who's within us all. It keeps us looking outside ourselves for "salvation", and it keeps us hooked on the church.

The second view tells us we have it within ourselves and don't have to rely on the church.

It's funny how over the course of years I've come to the second view after starting with the first. But that's just me.

[theophilus]

I was watching a show a few weeks back in which a Rosicrucian said something like this... and this is just a paraphasing of it 'cause I can't remember the exact words...

If Jesus were born God, then that gives us no hope of acheiving what he was because we weren't born God. We have to work towards it.

However, if Jesus were born a man and, during his life, became one with God then we all have the hope of doing the same.The problem is that neither of these alternatives is true. Jesus was God and has been so for all of eternity. But he chose to also become a man by being conceived in Mary's womb and then being born into this world just as all other men are. Unlike other men he was without sin and therefore never experienced any separation from God. All other humans are separated from God because of our sins. Jesus died to pay for our sins and enable us to be reconciled to God.

[Rivendoah]

The problem is that neither of these alternatives is true. Jesus was God and has been so for all of eternity. But he chose to also become a man by being conceived in Mary's womb and then being born into this world just as all other men are. Unlike other men he was without sin and therefore never experienced any separation from God. All other humans are separated from God because of our sins. Jesus died to pay for our sins and enable us to be reconciled to God.

I disagree with most of what you said above... I think we are all part of god... we always have been and we all ways will be... we are just in a state at this moment when we have lost that knowledge... all sin, which is born of fear, results from this belief in separation... love is the only answer to fear... fear is an illusion that results from separation... and when we are fully reintegrated with god we will realize that everything that is not god has always been an illusion born of separation...

god is man... and man is god... we are one...

[Blaze]

The problem is that neither of these alternatives is true. Jesus was God and has been so for all of eternity. But he chose to also become a man by being conceived in Mary's womb and then being born into this world just as all other men are. Unlike other men he was without sin and therefore never experienced any separation from God. All other humans are separated from God because of our sins. Jesus died to pay for our sins and enable us to be reconciled to God.
From a christian's view!

[Triner]

The problem is that neither of these alternatives is true. Jesus was God and has been so for all of eternity. But he chose to also become a man by being conceived in Mary's womb and then being born into this world just as all other men are. Unlike other men he was without sin and therefore never experienced any separation from God. All other humans are separated from God because of our sins. Jesus died to pay for our sins and enable us to be reconciled to God.

No, that's your belief that you like to state as if it's "Truth". And I understand and appreciate that it is your belief. I'm glad that you're happy with it. But you must remember that it's your Truth, not mine.

My soul tells me otherwise. I don't believe any humans are separate from God. Each and every one of us, no matter how we believe or act, has God inside us. The Christ is inside us. To go along with that, I believe that there's the possibility, however small that may be, that each and every one of us can achieve what Jesus did during his lifetime.

When I walk into a room full of people, I don't see sinners everywhere, I see the light of God in everyone's eyes. I don't see people who should be filled with guilt, I see people who are each finding their own path, no matter how unique, to God. I don't see people who should live in fear of God. Instead, I see people who can rejoice that God is each of us.

That is the reality I live in.

[theophilus]

My soul tells me otherwise.But where does your soul get its information?

[peteyzen]

I think it all comes down to experience, if you have had the experience of feeling christs power pass through you, and you have connected to him as we are able to connect to divine incarnations, then you knopw. If you havent, then no argument on earth will convince you. My suggestion is take the time to try to make this connection, to get this experience

[Triner]

But where does your soul get its information?

My soul is part of the Divine that's within me. I'm not separated from God. So my soul gets its information from God.

[nbeam07]

Based on my belief in the evolution of the soul (whether or not by means of reincarnation), Jesus evolved to where he could reunite with the Source. That would make him God.

It says in Corinthians : "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"

How would you interpret this keeping in mind the evolution of the soul?

The soul continues to evolve just as the universe continues to expand.

I believe the meaning of "judgment" in this passage is understanding. Those who have achieved enlightenment subsist on a different level of awareness-- they are ascended in their perception and therefore understand the purpose behind all things (including the "sinful" action of their brethren). They do not judge angels, they perceive them. The passage stresses the acknowledgement that we are already at our most evolved and have the ability to constitute forgiveness without involving material justice. True justice is exposing corruption in order to understand its purpose. Vindication is unnecessary because whatever happens will serve us in one way or another-- as long as we consciously recognize the lesson.

Soul evolution and the expansion of the Universe are one in the same. As our consciousness becomes more aware of what it can do-- which is anything, there are no limitations where potential is concerned-- physical manifestation (i.e. the Universe) follows suit. It is dream, or potential energy, becoming tangible, or kinetic energy. :smile:

[Bluegreen]

I believe the meaning of "judgment" in this passage is understanding. Those who have achieved enlightenment subsist on a different level of awareness-- they are ascended in their perception and therefore understand the purpose behind all things (including the "sinful" action of their brethren). No problem with this. They do not judge angels, they perceive them. In another belief system it means that we will surpass them because angels do not incarnate. The passage stresses the acknowledgement that we are already at our most evolved and have the ability to constitute forgiveness without involving material justice. True justice is exposing corruption in order to understand its purpose. Vindication is unnecessary because whatever happens will serve us in one way or another-- as long as we consciously recognize the lesson. You get all of this from that one quote? We are at our most evolved? Do you really mean it?

Soul evolution and the expansion of the Universe are one in the same. As our consciousness becomes more aware of what it can do-- which is anything, there are no limitations where potential is concerned-- physical manifestation (i.e. the Universe) follows suit. It is dream, or potential energy, becoming tangible, or kinetic energy. :smile: You and I mean the same thing.

The passage stresses the acknowledgement that we are already at our most evolved and have the ability to constitute forgiveness without involving material justice. True justice is exposing corruption in order to understand its purpose. Vindication is unnecessary because whatever happens will serve us in one way or another-- as long as we consciously recognize the lesson.

Could you elaborate and tell me your source, please?

[theophilus]

My soul is part of the Divine that's within me. I'm not separated from God. So my soul gets its information from God.If your belief is true, then doesn't everyone else have access to the same information? It that was the case we should all believe the same things because we all have the same souce of information. But in fact we see that there are many divergent beliefs that are held by different people. How does your belief concerning our relationship to God explain that fact?

[Triner]

If your belief is true, then doesn't everyone else have access to the same information?

Yes.

It that was the case we should all believe the same things because we all have the same souce of information. But in fact we see that there are many divergent beliefs that are held by different people. How does your belief concerning our relationship to God explain that fact?

Ah, there's the rub... There's the filter of the soul, and the ego, and the self, all filtering and garbling the message. Nice as it'd be, it's not a direct, digital link. Because of all of these things, and since no two of us are the same, each of us has our own unique connection to God. So each of us has God inside of us in our own, unique way. And each of us can express that in our own, unique way.

For me, that's one of the beautiful things in meeting others. Discovering their 'connection' to God, whatever and however it is, is wonderful. Look at many of the people on this forum. I find it amazing and fascinating to see the vast variety of expressions of spirituality. Pagans, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Spiritualists, Agnostics, Atheists, and whomever else I've not mentioned are all expressing their own unique connection to God.

[theophilus]

Ah, there's the rub... There's the filter of the soul, and the ego, and the self, all filtering and garbling the message.Since that is the case how can you know that what you have learned hasn't been distorted? How can you rely on what your soul tells you at all?

Do you thing that God wants us to know the truth about himself? If so, it seems the best way to do this would be to provide some external source of information about himself which would serve as a standard by which we could judge the accuracy of our beliefs. In fact, he has provided such a source in the Bible. When I study it I often find things there that contradict my personal beliefs. I have learned that when this happens I must change by beliefs and opinions to bring them in line with what the Bible teaches.

[Bluegreen]

@nbeam07

But even on this earth of material degradation — in which the divine spark (Soul, a corruscation of the Spirit) was to begin its physical progression in a series of imprisonments from a stone up to a man's body — if he but exercise his WILL and call his deity to his help, man can transcend the powers of the angel. "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" asks Paul (1 Corinthians, vi. 3). The real man is the Soul (Spirit), teaches the Sohar.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Helena_Petrovna_Blavatsky

[Triner]

Since that is the case how can you know that what you have learned hasn't been distorted? How can you rely on what your soul tells you at all?

That's a good question. I question what I have learned all the time. I engage the writings of souls (enlightened or not) from all beliefs. I read. I question and I listen. I learn. I've found a basic truth in everything. Love. But I've also found that ALL writings, the Bible included, are distorted by the filters of those who wrote them.

Do you thing that God wants us to know the truth about himself? If so, it seems the best way to do this would be to provide some external source of information about himself which would serve as a standard by which we could judge the accuracy of our beliefs. In fact, he has provided such a source in the Bible. When I study it I often find things there that contradict my personal beliefs. I have learned that when this happens I must change by beliefs and opinions to bring them in line with what the Bible teaches.

To me, and you'll never convince me otherwise, the Bible was written by men, through their own filters, for their own ends. The message of Christ has been changed, filtered, and edited all for the writers' of the Bible own purposes.

Therefore, when I've read it, I've had to apply my own mind to its words to try to determine what its message really is. And, when I do, I've found the message is simple. It's Love. It's the same thing by soul tells me time and time again. As I wrote earlier, it's the same thing when I look at the Buddha or whatever souls I try to learn from. The message, at its core, is the same no matter what the wrapping. That tells me I'm on the right path.


I think it's simple easy to just say "The Bible is the Word Of God" and have all of your answers there. But I think that's a cop out for people who don't want to go through the struggle of thinking and learning for themselves. Having someone or something do it for you is easy.

[Triner]

Since that is the case how can you know that what you have learned hasn't been distorted?

This, of course, begs the question of how do you know that what's in the Bible hasn't been distorted?

[nbeam07]

I believe the meaning of "judgment" in this passage is understanding. Those who have achieved enlightenment subsist on a different level of awareness-- they are ascended in their perception and therefore understand the purpose behind all things (including the "sinful" action of their brethren). No problem with this. They do not judge angels, they perceive them. In another belief system it means that we will surpass them because angels do not incarnate. The passage stresses the acknowledgement that we are already at our most evolved and have the ability to constitute forgiveness without involving material justice. True justice is exposing corruption in order to understand its purpose. Vindication is unnecessary because whatever happens will serve us in one way or another-- as long as we consciously recognize the lesson. You get all of this from that one quote? We are at our most evolved? Do you really mean it?

I get it from the entire passage, Blue. One of the biggest things people today try to do is take a sentence from a Biblical passage and pass it off as something else. You have to consider the context of the entire passage- not just one part of it- because, what's the point of the rest if only that sentence matters? In this passage Paul is addressing the "enlightened" about bringing a case against his/ her brother. Yes, in this instance I believe he acknowledged that they were at their most evolved. Indeed, we are always at our most evolved because we ARE God energy. It is simply a matter of believing it-- that is being the Source. There is no "becoming" or "reuniting" with the Source there is only recognizing that we always were. Soul evolution is a part of this. Each incarnation brings us to our most evolved point, i.e. we learn with every lifetime so you are literally at your most evolved at this very moment. This is why we should embrace and master the present. How can we possibly evolve in the next incarnation if we have yet to master this one? The subsequent lifetime doesn't matter, it's what we do with this one that makes all the difference.

You think angels (I call them Spirit Guides) do not incarnate? Incarnation is an ability-- it is simply potential, or God energy, becoming kinetic. If we incarnate we are still God energy, we have simply manifested. We have the ability to make dreams tangible. That said, there is nothing that can limit us. We can build and create new things and new incarnations, but we are always the same energy-- potential-- and that energy is not a hierarchy. It is balance across the board. Saying that angels cannot do something is limiting the Universe for there is nothing that is separate from God.

I believe you asked me for a "source" for my beliefs. I have to ask-- who was Christ's source, or Buddha's for that matter? My source is me-- this is my interpretation of the Universe and I share it with you and the rest because I believe personal interaction to be a form of relationship. :smile:

[theophilus]

To me, and you'll never convince me otherwise, the Bible was written by men, through their own filters, for their own ends. The message of Christ has been changed, filtered, and edited all for the writers' of the Bible own purposes. The Bible is the only book which wasn't written by men for their own purposes. God guided the writers so that it is the only perfect expression of his will.And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 1:19-21 ESV

Sometimes those who read the Bible miss its message because they filter what they read through the beliefs they already hold. In order to understand it you must be prepared to change your beliefs to conform to what the Bible says rather than trying to make it conform to your beliefs.

[Bluegreen]

If your belief is true, then doesn't everyone else have access to the same information? It that was the case we should all believe the same things because we all have the same souce of information. But in fact we see that there are many divergent beliefs that are held by different people. How does your belief concerning our relationship to God explain that fact?

Spirit descended into matter and forgot its relationship, its oneness with the Source or God. Spirit is on its way back to the Source or God.

It is not an easy journey for any individual soul. And here is where your reasoning does not hold up. Re-union with the Source or God is not given to any of us on a silver platter. We have to work hard to open a channel to spiritual realms and ultimately to the Source.
We are on different rungs of the ladder reaching to the Source and God.
I think there are people on SF who can tell you more because they know.

Your rung of the ladder is Christianity where you choose to closely adhere to what is in the Bible. Other people have chosen different paths and are on diffrent rungs of the ladder.
And you know what, Theophilus, none of those paths, including yours, are wrong.

[Zenith]

I guess that most people accept that a historical figure known as Jesus Christ actually existed. But the question that springs to many peoples mind is: was he really God? Was he divine?

The question concerns Christ's Godhood. Was he imagining that he was the Son Of God? Was he deluded?

The trouble is that there is no guarantee that Christ is God. Who would know? We are left to speculate but not know.

The slavation of mankind might depend on the fact of whether Christ was really God or not. But no one knows for sure. It is a gamble!

People often bring Christs Godhood into question. If there is a Satan then he will be very interested in the state of Christ Godhood too. So that he can undermine the crucifiction.

How centred in God is Christ?

The authors of the New Testament certainly saw Christ as divine, and St Paul makes the connection between the two. Worship of Christ was also an early part of Christian adoration.

However, I do not think that to be Christian you need to admit Christ is God. Living the life that Christ wants for you is not dependent on accepting him as God Almighty, though it is essential to trust him as Master and Rabbi.

[Zenith]

No Jesus was not god, he declared god that was within him, as god is also within you and me,

The difference is that Christ identified himself explicitly with the Father in heaven. Moreover, when worshipped and acknowledged as God by the apostle Thomas, he did not rebuke his adulation.

The Kingdom of God is certainly within us, but Christ himself recognized himself as the origin of such institution.

[Bluegreen]

I get it from the entire passage, Blue. One of the biggest things people today try to do is take a sentence from a Biblical passage and pass it off as something else. You have to consider the context of the entire passage- not just one part of it- because, what's the point of the rest if only that sentence matters? In this passage Paul is addressing the "enlightened" about bringing a case against his/ her brother. Yes, in this instance I believe he acknowledged that they were at their most evolved.
I referred to that particular sentence because most Christians do not believe that they will evolve, grow closer to God.

Indeed, we are always at our most evolved because we ARE God energy. It is simply a matter of believing it-- that is being the Source. There is no "becoming" or "reuniting" with the Source there is only recognizing that we always were. I think both descriptions are correct to use and which one to use depends on the reader. Hmmm... Soul evolution is a part of this. Each incarnation brings us to our most evolved point, i.e. we learn with every lifetime so you are literally at your most evolved at this very moment. To say that we are at our most evolved at any given moment is open to interpretation, namely (1) your meaning and (2) "most" implies that evolution stops at one's "most evolved." This is why we should embrace and master the present. How can we possibly evolve in the next incarnation if we have yet to master this one? I believe we learn in each incarnation. The subsequent lifetime doesn't matter, it's what we do with this one that makes all the difference. Isn't that obvious?

You think angels (I call them Spirit Guides) do not incarnate? It is something I came across. Besides I said they do not incarnate and not that they cannot/do not have the ability to incarnate. Also, there is much I do not know. Incarnation is an ability-- it is simply potential, or God energy, becoming kinetic. If we incarnate we are still God energy, we have simply manifested. We have the ability to make dreams tangible. That said, there is nothing that can limit us. We can build and create new things and new incarnations, but we are always the same energy-- potential-- and that energy is not a hierarchy.It is something I am still undecided about. It is balance across the board. Saying that angels cannot do something is limiting the Universe for there is nothing that is separate from God.

I believe you asked me for a "source" for my beliefs. I have to ask-- who was Christ's source, or Buddha's for that matter? My source is me-- this is my interpretation of the Universe and I share it with you and the rest because I believe personal interaction to be a form of relationship.:smile:

It is your interpretation? Thank you for sharing.

Relationships are extremely important.
..........

[Triner]

The Bible is the only book which wasn't written by men for their own purposes. God guided the writers so that it is the only perfect expression of his will.And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 1:19-21 ESV

Sometimes those who read the Bible miss its message because they filter what they read through the beliefs they already hold. In order to understand it you must be prepared to change your beliefs to conform to what the Bible says rather than trying to make it conform to your beliefs.

Ah, so the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says it is. If that's want you want to believe and it works for you, then cool.

But to me, that's just too circular. I think the Bible being its own proof of its own Divine nature is something put forth by the people who wrote it to trap people in the Bible's religious dogma. To me, there's too much of that sort of circular logic in the Bible to be anything but a trap. It's a power ploy by the writers. It creates fear, judgement, and, in many of the worst cases, fundamentalism.

If it had just said "Here is Jesus' message for you to read", that would've been much more better and, to me, honest.

[Zenith]

If it had just said "Here is Jesus' message for you to read", that would've been much more better and, to me, honest.

That's what the Gospels do, e.g. Luke 1:1-4.

:)

[Triner]

That's what the Gospels do, e.g. Luke 1:1-4.

:)

Ah, so that's all we should listen to in the Bible?... We should just pay attention to the Gospels of what Jesus said and did?

Cool. I bet fundamentalists will be bummed to hear that.

[theophilus]

Your rung of the ladder is Christianity where you choose to closely adhere to what is in the Bible. Other people have chosen different paths and are on diffrent rungs of the ladder.
And you know what, Theophilus, none of those paths, including yours, are wrong.How to you know none of them are wrong?

[Amilius777]

I think the Yogi Paramahansa Yogananda knew Jesus very well and along with his past yogi-gurus knew the truth about Jesus.

According to the Kriya Yogis of India, Jesus was the Christ.

Jesus was divine and human.

Jesus was a full incarnation of Go (avatar, or mahavatar "great incarnation").

Jesus the son of man referred to his divine human nature. And Christ the Son of God referred to his omnipresent Consciousness of God inside all Humans.

Christ is a state of oneness with God.

So the yogis are encouraging everyone to reach their divine potential just like Christ did. And that the Son of God lives within all of us. "God with us" or The Son is the Lord within us all. That part of the trinity is in all of us.

But! Yogananda also stressed the importance of Jesus' mission and got very angry when "Spiritualists" like many on this board completely throw him away. To Yogananda, Jesus was (along with Mahavatar Babaji) the highest incarnation of God in human form and his sacrifice on the Cross was an example for us ALL to take up our cross for our loved ones and be unconditional love and sacrifice.

[Zenith]

Ah, so that's all we should listen to in the Bible?... We should just pay attention to the Gospels of what Jesus said and did?

I didn't say that, but I think the Gospels should be a fundamental part of how we understand Jesus and his message. It always strikes me as strange that Christians should want to too often quote St Paul, even though their (our) Master's biography is presented to us plainly, (four times no less!)

[SerpentQueen]

The Bible is the only book which wasn't written by men for their own purposes. God guided the writers so that it is the only perfect expression of his will.And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 1:19-21 ESV

Sometimes those who read the Bible miss its message because they filter what they read through the beliefs they already hold. In order to understand it you must be prepared to change your beliefs to conform to what the Bible says rather than trying to make it conform to your beliefs.

The problem with this is there are so many contradictions in the Bible!

http://theatlantic.tumblr.com/post/5042448060/ilovecharts-contradictions-in-the-bible-this

(click on the image to load the PDF of the chart - it's enormous, because there are so many dang contradictions in the Bible... )

That said, I agree the Bible was divinely inspired. It is an (not THE but AN) ultimate, divinely inspired "training manual" for moral development - provided you use it that way and question, question, question. (If you are not familiar with Kohlberg's stages of moral development, I recommend you google it and read about it.)

If you view the Bible in this light, then even the contradictions make perfect sense. They are there so you question and have to grapple and might even go through what Kohlberg calls the "adolescent" stage of rejecting it all as meaningless.

There is something in the Bible for everyone, no matter what stage of development they are at - but the goal is not to stay stuck in the conventional stages.

[theophilus]

I didn't say that, but I think the Gospels should be a fundamental part of how we understand Jesus and his message. It always strikes me as strange that Christians should want to too often quote St Paul, even though their (our) Master's biography is presented to us plainly, (four times no less!)Perhaps the reason we quote Paul so much is that Jesus himself said that the teachings he gave while on earth wasn't all he had to say and that more would be revealed after the Holy Spirit came.“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
John 16:12,13 ESV




Chapter 9 of Acts tells how Jesus himself appeared to Paul and chose him to be his representative. This shows that when Paul wrote his letters he did so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus had sent and this means that what he wrote is just as much the teaching of Jesus as were the things Jesus said while he was here on earth. The reason Jesus came was to die as payment for our sins so we can be forgiven. Part of Paul's task was to explain the significance of what Jesus did.

The record of how Jesus appeared to Paul was written by Luke, who also wrote one of the gospels. If you question the accuracy of his account, then you will also have to question the accuracy of the teachings of Jesus which are recorded in his gospel. The teachings of Jesus and the authority of Paul are linked because our knowledge of them comes from the same source.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Pauline-Christianity.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostle-Paul-writings.html

[Rivendoah]

I think it is important for us as individuals to question everything that others tell us and that we have been taught and that we have read in books... be it a science book... a history book... or the bible... we know nothing for sure in this life... we each have the right to hang our hat on one belief system or another... but in the end it is only faith and nothing more... we are better served to question all things... it is the only way we grow spiritually.

People long for a simple answer... to have some source that they can turn to and say... THIS IS IT! now I have all the answers! I don't think the human experience can ever be this easy... when we reach such a point we stagnate... cease to learn... and begin to defend and judge others... in order to maintain our chosen truth...

[theophilus]

The problem with this is there are so many contradictions in the Bible!Do you ever check out Christian sources to see if there is any explanation for these apparent contradictions? If you want to find out the truth here are two good places to start:

http://carm.org/introduction-bible-difficulties-and-bible-contradictions (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fcarm.org%2Fintroductio n-bible-difficulties-and-bible-contradictions)

http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/showthread.php/291-Guide-to-reading-difficult-passages (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onlinedebate.net%2 Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%2F291-Guide-to-reading-difficult-passages)

[hybrid]

these links are self serving explanations. they explain the bible according to their dormas.

[Bluegreen]

Originally Posted by Bluegreen
Your rung of the ladder is Christianity where you choose to closely adhere to what is in the Bible. Other people have chosen different paths and are on diffrent rungs of the ladder.
And you know what, Theophilus, none of those paths, including yours, are wrong.

Theophilus: How to you know none of them are wrong?

Because each path teaches us something. When you 'sin' without knowing, Theophilus, something will happen that makes it clear that another choice would have been better. You learned and because you learned you grew closer to God, even if the step was infinitesimally small.

[TeeHee]

The question concerns Christ's Godhood. Was he imagining that he was the Son Of God? Was he deluded?

How centred in God is Christ?

CS Lewis said:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

There are seven blesseds you may want to inquire on Honza. The blessedness of reading, hearing and obeying the word of God. 14:13 The dead who from now on die in the Lord. 16:15 Blessed is the one stays awake and is clothed; the watchful pilgrim. 19:9 Those who are invited to the marriage supper of the lamb. 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection, those whom death cannot touch. 22:7 Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book; the wise reader of God’s word. 22:14 those who have washed their robes; those who accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The revelation given to Jesus Christ was given by God. The bible never makes a second God of Jesus. For a further study of the Godhead or the Trinity, would take pages, and that is if it could be conveyed to any unbeliever. Jesus says, in,

John 7:16
‘My teaching’, said Jesus, ‘is not mine but his who sent me’

John 8:28
‘I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me’

John 12:49
‘I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak’

The truth, God's truth that Jesus brings is dependent on God; and that is why his teaching is unique and final.

[Miss Hepburn]

I would say Jesus Christ is as much God as a ray of sunshine is the Sun....itself.

:smile:

And still ask him for anything and know that you have already received it.

No matter who you conceive him to be.

:smile:

[Amilius777]

Very nice Miss Hepburn. I love it!

There are so many misconceptions from the New Age of what the Christian Churches teach. And there is so much ignorance from the Christian Churches on what the New Age believes. This has to do with was Jesus fully God and fully Man? Is there Reincarnation? Is there a Christ Consciousness more than the man Jesus? etc.

I think we as a race have to realize that the great ones- Christ, Buddha and such viewed Truth from the middle-way, the gray of life. Black and White is no good. That is why only CHRIST can destroy ignorance and evil. For white is all the way up in the clouds with the angels, and black is all the way down with the demons as you would say. But Christ stands in the middle in strong and powerful action but just as passionately forgiving and eternally loving.

In the Catholic Church Jesus is not just God. He is a Man. In Roman Catholicism which is the oldest Church and the ONLY church that teaches- "Inner-God Communion", Jesus was a soul like all of us. Jesus was a human like all of us. He was made in God's image like all of us. But beneath even all that dwelt God the Son of the Trinity, the Second Person who was eternally begotten by the Father which in John's Gospel is called "The Divine Reason".

Okay, before we see Jesus as a gigantic being next to the Father claiming he is God and creating everything- even us, and before we see Jesus just as another sage who just became enlightened, look at My Middle-Ground and tell me what you guys think-

Yes there is reincarnation. Yes there is a universal Christ Consciousness also known as The Holy Spirit. And yes Jesus was a soul created by God. Reincarnation is the result of getting things right and learning to progress to higher forms. Obviously we all reincarnate because of the original karma of mankind bodily birth brings bodily death. This first happened through the first Parents (symbolically Adam and Eve). God worked through many inspired and potentially divine prophets- Hermes, Melchizedek, Moses, Gautama Buddha, Each of these all possessed that universal Christ Consciousness became sons of God in their own right. So there were many "way-showers" before Jesus- Hermes aka: Enoch brought the ancient laws of psychic-ism, the Craft- the Kybalion and assumed into the astral plane without dying. Melchizedek created the Eternal Priesthood, a Brotherhood on the Other Side that souls are anointed into. Moses brought down the Laws of the Universe from that Consciousness, and the Buddha taught how compassion could dodge and overcome those Karmic Laws of the universe. God had a great plate of prophets, but mankind was still constantly reincarnating, the poor- the sick-the defiled, the low caste had no hope, the Empires ruled mercilessly, the religions of the world were in constant corruption including Judaism. Because this world is impossible to become universally divine, God decided to send his final revelation. When Elijah became the most advanced prophet in the world and assumed into heaven, God decided to resend him as John the Baptist as his herald. Then the offer came to Mary, a pure young girl in Israel without sin and she decided to conceive. This is how it went down. God created this soul named Jesus for a divine purpose but never forced him to do anything. And Jesus created for this special purpose decided to take his Father's offer. God's talk to the angels went down like this- "He will be like one of them. He will be like all my children. He will be an individual, he will suffer, he will be happy, he will cry, he will laugh. He will be limited to the body. He will have to earn the Christ Consciousness- The Holy Spirit. He will have to evolve into a great divine prophet. And he will take on the karma of his people, and the original karma of the world from Adam and Eve. He will destroy it in his body on a Cross. In him my divine love will be manifest as the "Son of God principle". And he will be Me incarnate, he shall incarnate My Being, the I AM, and he will be I Am That I Am in flesh". And thus he sent him!.

End. :glasses3:

[Miss Hepburn]

Very nice Miss Hepburn. I love it!

There are so many misconceptions from the New Age of what the Christian Churches teach. And there is so much ignorance from the Christian Churches on what the New Age believes. This has to do with was Jesus fully God and fully Man? Is there Reincarnation? Is there a Christ Consciousness more than the man Jesus? etc.

I think we as a race have to realize that the great ones- Christ, Buddha and such viewed Truth from the middle-way, the gray of life. Black and White is no good. That is why only CHRIST can destroy ignorance and evil. For white is all the way up in the clouds with the angels, and black is all the way down with the demons as you would say. But Christ stands in the middle in strong and powerful action but just as passionately forgiving and eternally loving.

In the Catholic Church Jesus is not just God. He is a Man. In Roman Catholicism which is the oldest Church and the ONLY church that teaches- "Inner-God Communion", Jesus was a soul like all of us. Jesus was a human like all of us. He was made in God's image like all of us. But beneath even all that dwelt God the Son of the Trinity, the Second Person who was eternally begotten by the Father which in John's Gospel is called "The Divine Reason".

Okay, before we see Jesus as a gigantic being next to the Father claiming he is God and creating everything- even us, and before we see Jesus just as another sage who just became enlightened, look at My Middle-Ground and tell me what you guys think-

Yes there is reincarnation. Yes there is a universal Christ Consciousness also known as The Holy Spirit. And yes Jesus was a soul created by God. Reincarnation is the result of getting things right and learning to progress to higher forms. Obviously we all reincarnate because of the original karma of mankind bodily birth brings bodily death. This first happened through the first Parents (symbolically Adam and Eve). God worked through many inspired and potentially divine prophets- Hermes, Melchizedek, Moses, Gautama Buddha, Each of these all possessed that universal Christ Consciousness became sons of God in their own right.

So there were many "way-showers" before Jesus- Hermes aka:
1. Enoch brought the ancient laws of psychic-ism, the Craft- the Kybalion and assumed into the astral plane without dying.
2. Melchizedek created the Eternal Priesthood, a Brotherhood on the Other Side that souls are anointed into. (I didn't know this!!)
3. Moses brought down the Laws of the Universe from that Consciousness, and 4. the Buddha taught how compassion could dodge and overcome those Karmic Laws of the universe.

God had a great plate of prophets, but mankind was still constantly reincarnating, the poor- the sick-the defiled, the low caste had no hope, the Empires ruled mercilessly, the religions of the world were in constant corruption including Judaism. Because this world is impossible to become universally divine, God decided to send his final revelation.
When Elijah became the most advanced prophet in the world and assumed into heaven, God decided to resend him as John the Baptist as his herald.
Then the offer came to Mary, a pure young girl in Israel without sin and she decided to conceive. This is how it went down.
God created this soul named Jesus for a divine purpose but never forced him to do anything.
And Jesus created for this special purpose decided to take his Father's offer.

God's talk to the angels went down like this- "He will be like one of them. He will be like all my children. He will be an individual, he will suffer, he will be happy, he will cry, he will laugh. He will be limited to the body. He will have to earn the Christ Consciousness- The Holy Spirit. He will have to evolve into a great divine prophet. And he will take on the karma of his people, and the original karma of the world from Adam and Eve. He will destroy it in his body on a Cross. In him my divine love will be manifest as the "Son of God principle". And he will be Me incarnate, he shall incarnate My Being, the I AM, and he will be I Am That I Am in flesh". And thus he sent him!.

End. :glasses3:

Whew!
.
.
.