Deceived By The Light

[Mind's Eye]

There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?

[Bluegreen]

There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian. How can they say anything else. For to accept NDEs as true, they would have to admit to themselves that all that they subjected themselves to such as fear of Satan, of being led astray was unnecessary. They would have to admit that they were wrong all along. Not at all pleasant and it requires honesty. The idea of NDEs being real may actually be frightening to them..

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. Of course it is. How do you explain these experiences?

In the early 20th century Cacey said that there would be no more death. He added that it would not happen literally, but that how we see death would change. This is what came to mind when I read stories about NDEs for the first time.

There are too many stories to dismiss them as fantasy or as being chemically induced by a dying brain. Particularly since it has been scientifically proved that consciousness exists independent of the body. After all, we are spirit having a body.

A lot has been written about near death experiences. The best site to read about them is the neardeath.com site. Only yesterday I read again about 'the pattern' which was brought back from an NDE by Lynnclaire Dennis.
http://www.near-death.com/dennis.html

I like the subject of this post Mind's Eye and look forward to what other posters think.

[Mind's Eye]

That's a great site Blue... thanks for posting it. I plan to look it over more carefully a little later.

I enjoy the subject of NDE's as well... It has always been a subject of great interest to me. And yes, the dying brain theory has been put out to pasture a long time ago. I have read accounts where folks were dead for days.

I would also like to state right here, that this is not another Christian bashing thread and I hope it doesn't turn into one.

I believe in Christ.. I truly do. But I don't belive in the Jesus that religion teaches.

I believe there is a loving God/Divine Spirit out there. And that Jesus came to tell us about the reality of the spiritual realm. But unfortunately, when men got hold of those teachings and fudged with them and started taking every word literally... the true meaning of it was lost.

Why can't we all rejoice in the fact that heaven welcomes each and every one of us when we die.

Does that mean that someone like Hitler or the 911 terrorists went to heaven and got a big old sloppy kiss at the gates??? I don't know. Maybe not... or maybe they had to go someowhere where they would learn from their mistakes and grow as spiritual beings. Who can say for sure where souls like that go and what happenes to them after they die. I would imagine there would have to be some kind of justice to be served for the truly evil soul.

But I don't think the average person who is a decent human being goes to a burning hell just because he picked the wrong religion or some such thing. Too much evidence seems to prove otherwise.

Maybe all of these NDE's is God's way of trying to set us all straight and get us to drop all of the religious hatred.

[theophilus]

There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.Are you absolutely sure that these people actually died? Not all of the experiences I have heard about describe the afterlife in the same way so they can't all be true. Some have described seeing Hell rather than Heaven.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?Why is it so terrible to suggest such a thing? Are you sure it isn't true? Satan is a deceiver and makes evil appear to be good. The fact that not all death experiences are the same suggests that they are seeing some kind of vision rather than experiencing reality and why can't Satan be the one inducing these visions?

But I don't think the average person who is a decent human being goes to a burning hell just because he picked the wrong religion or some such thing. Too much evidence seems to prove otherwise.No one will be condemned to hell for picking the wrong religion. Each of us will be judged on the basis of whether or not we lived up fully to what we know is right. We all have a natural tendency to deceive ourselfs as to how good we are but when we face God at our final judgment we will see ourselves as we really are.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15258 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D15258)

[innerlight]

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?


It's dismissed by Christians and that belief because it goes against their beliefs. They have been told, and believe that only a few will ever make it into heaven. That only those that accept Jesus will make it to heaven. They will not accept that anyone and everyone will go to heaven. Regardless of their acceptance or non acceptance of Jesus and the Christian belief.

So it's easy to see that those that aren't Christian will not see the "real" heaven. That it is a lie created by Satan to sway a Christian from the true path of Christianity.

I was reading a book on people crossing over and seeing the spirit realms from their past lives who crossed over. The guy doing the case stories remarked that of all the people that he has worked with none of them reported to seeing any Religious teacher such as Jesus, Buddha, or Muhammad upon passing. I'm sure it would be dismissed then that they were not in heaven, but were deceived.

[Prokopton]

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience.

Not uniformly, remember. I've seen Christian pastors using NDE accounts to counsel the bereaved. There are plenty of Christians who see this as perfectly valid stuff.

EDIT:

No one will be condemned to hell for picking the wrong religion. Each of us will be judged on the basis of whether or not we lived up fully to what we know is right.

Ah! How nice, Theophilus, to find you saying that, and thereby recognizing the validity of multiple spiritual paths apart from your own.

Very interesting too since this view is actually considered heretical by most these days, ever since Saint Augustine, and that's a long time. It could be seen as a form of the Pelagian heresy, so-called, since you seem to be saying people can achieve what Christians call 'salvation' without what Christians call 'God'. But perhaps you're not, and anyway, I welcome the adult nature of the comment.

[Mind's Eye]

Not uniformly, remember. I've seen Christian pastors using NDE accounts to counsel the bereaved. There are plenty of Christians who see this as perfectly valid stuff.

There absolutley are Christians who believe in the NDE experiences. And it's great that they have an open mind about other things as well. To me, that is the true spirit of Christianity; to know that God is bigger than we are and we cannot possibly know it all through the doctrines and dogmas of the more rigid religions.

[Mind's Eye]

Are you absolutely sure that these people actually died? Not all of the experiences I have heard about describe the afterlife in the same way so they can't all be true. Some have described seeing Hell rather than Heaven.

Why is it so terrible to suggest such a thing? Are you sure it isn't true? Satan is a deceiver and makes evil appear to be good. The fact that not all death experiences are the same suggests that they are seeing some kind of vision rather than experiencing reality and why can't Satan be the one inducing these visions?

No one will be condemned to hell for picking the wrong religion. Each of us will be judged on the basis of whether or not we lived up fully to what we know is right. We all have a natural tendency to deceive ourselfs as to how good we are but when we face God at our final judgment we will see ourselves as we really are.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15258 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D15258)

I've read a lot of NDE that were very much the same. Although some do differ on certain subjects.

But are we to be so blind that we think that we can grasp the whole of heaven with our limited understanding?

I live in a certain town, in a certain county.... and it's quite big. If I look out of my front door and say that what I see is all there is... does that discount the other views of other people who live elsewhere in the same county??? Of course not; for we have all seen diffrent aspects and places of the same place..... Heaven is as big as eternity. How can anyone narrow it down to a postage stamp sized place and discount what someone else has seen?

[Bluegreen]

Originally Posted by theophilus
Are you absolutely sure that these people actually died? Before reanimation was possible, people were declared dead when there there were no longer any vital signs. Nowadays it is possible to check for brain activity. When there is no longer any, people are pronounced dead. But I concede that in the case of NDEs it can be argued that the people have not died. People are dead when the silver cord is severed but that is a different topic. Not all of the experiences I have heard about describe the afterlife in the same way so they can't all be true. Some have described seeing Hell rather than Heaven. It can be argued on the basis of all the NDE stories that our beliefs in life colour what we encounter after death. If you believe that you will enter pearly gates when you die, Theophilus, then chances are very real that that is what you will find.

Why is it so terrible to suggest such a thing? Are you sure it isn't true? Satan is a deceiver and makes evil appear to be good. The fact that not all death experiences are the same suggests that they are seeing some kind of vision rather than experiencing reality and why can't Satan be the one inducing these visions?

An interesting concept explained to one person during a NDE is how the afterlife appears to people in the way they need it to appear after death. This explains why the Being of Light appears as Christ to some people and as an angel or Higher Self to another. It also explains why people experience different things during their NDEs. People experience different things because people have different needs. These needs are met at the time of death. http://www.near-death.com/differences.html.



No one will be condemned to hell for picking the wrong religion. :hug3: Each of us will be judged on the basis of whether or not we lived up fully to what we know is right. :hug3: We all have a natural tendency to deceive ourselfs as to how good we are but when we face God at our final judgment we will see ourselves as we really are.

NDErs who experienced a dark place eventually went to the Light. One explanation I have found is that we are so ashamed that we want to hide but after a while we all find the courage to face our 'peers' and 'mentors'. If we go there for other reasons it seems that for a while we ignore the Light which is always present to help us.
The Roman Catholics call this purgatory.

Off topic: Mind's Eye I am a 'she'. :D

[Mind's Eye]

Off topic: Mind's Eye I am a 'she'. :D

Yeah, yeah... I knew that. I just wanted to make sure that you were aware over there. :wink:

[Bluegreen]

:blob3: :blob3: :D Yeah, yeah... I knew that. I just wanted to make sure that you were aware over there.
I believe you, only this once :D

One interesting explanation by an NDEr: going through the tunnel is really our consciousness expanding.

I mentioned the silver cord and said that when that was severed is when a person has really died.
Of course I continued reading and found this:

Edgar Cayce: "Indeed the vibrations may be raised to such an extent as to rekindle or reconnect the cord, even as the Master did with the son of the widow of Nain. For he did not take him by the hand (which was bound to the body as was the custom of the day), but rather stroked him on the head - and the body took life of Life itself! So, you see, the silver cord may be broken - but the vibration ...'"

[Blaze]

Christianity is not what makes the world go round.

[mattie]

The afterdeath experience of seeing the light, etc. isn’t just for those of a particular religion.

Those who try to intimidate others who don’t hold their beliefs, trying to make them believe their experience was manipulated by Satan are being really pushy & authoritarian. It’s quite ugly. Those who do this type of thing throw Satan around quite freely. This is bullying in the name of religion.

It is part of the intolerance of others’ beliefs & desire for theological dominance that leads a religion to claim if others don’t adhere to its specific beliefs that they won’t go to heaven. Many don’t believe what is the basis for these statements (satan, heaven, hell).

[Bluegreen]

Christianity is not what makes the world go round.

The afterdeath experience of seeing the light, etc. isn’t just for those of a particular religion.

Those who try to intimidate others who don’t hold their beliefs, trying to make them believe their experience was manipulated by Satan are being really pushy & authoritarian. It’s quite ugly. Those who do this type of thing throw Satan around quite freely. This is bullying in the name of religion.

It is part of the intolerance of others’ beliefs & desire for theological dominance that leads a religion to claim if others don’t adhere to its specific beliefs that they won’t go to heaven. Many don’t believe what is the basis for these statements (satan, heaven, hell).

I thought this thread was about the phenomenon of near death experiences and not about Christianity although it is unavoidable that the subject may touch upon Christianity and other religions or spirituality. I am sure that Mind's Eye will correct me when I say that this thread is not about "bullying in the name of religion."

Blaze, Mattie, I'd love to hear your thoughts about NDEs.

[Blaze]

Blaze, Mattie, I'd love to hear your thoughts about NDEs.

It's hard to give any clear comment regarding NDEs as every individual's experience is down to their own nature/basic IMO. Anything that goes through an individual's NDE is what they meant to witness I believe. It's not something that we can analyze precisely as the scenes that they witness could be the consequence of very random causes.

[Scibat]

There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?

How are you defining "the Christian community"? That seems to be a very broad swath for what is probably only a very small group. Therein lies my objection to many of these posts, these broad blanket statements. There are so many variations and different practices within Christianity, using such broad terms as "the Christian community" seems a rather large misrepresentation as applied to the OPs question.

[Perspective]

People translate experiences according to what they hope or fear.
So their translation of NDEs as Satanic experiences reflects their fear of satan.
How are you defining "the Christian community"? That seems to be a very broad swath for what is probably only a very small group. Therein lies my objection to many of these posts, these broad blanket statements. There are so many variations and different practices within Christianity, using such broad terms as "the Christian community" seems a rather large misrepresentation as applied to the OPs question.That's a good & important point, Scibat.
Being judgmental & overgeneralizing by judging an entire group based on a select few... is how prejudice & stereotypes are created & maintained.
Although my beliefs are nontraditional, I still regularly associate with Christians.
The majority of Christians I've come across are open to & interested in NDEs.
In fact, the only times I've heard otherwise is on this forum - this thread & another.

[Bluegreen]

It's hard to give any clear comment regarding NDEs as every individual's experience is down to their own nature/basic IMO. Anything that goes through an individual's NDE is what they meant to witness I believe. It's not something that we can analyze precisely as the scenes that they witness could be the consequence of very random causes.

You believe that NDEs are real? The website to which I provided a link may be of interest as it contains analyses.

[Medium_Laura]

Are you absolutely sure that these people actually died? Not all of the experiences I have heard about describe the afterlife in the same way so they can't all be true. Some have described seeing Hell rather than Heaven.

I'm absolutely sure I died, my body was barely alive but I wasn't in it. I could see my body below me. Felt a warmth behind me and saw a brilliant light. I had a choice that was not spoken to me, but I knew I was being asked if I wanted to return to this life or to go to the Other Side. The moment I had a slight thought of staying, I was propelled very fast back into my body. My arms were too heavy, my body felt unfamiliar and everything was too loud. I had bled to death (confirmed by the nurses surrounding me pushing blood as fast as they could into my body), my heart was still beating but they said a few minutes later and they wouldn't have gotten me back.

All I know is my own experiences and no, I'm not Christian; haven't been for over 25 years.

[Blaze]

You believe that NDEs are real? The website to which I provided a link may be of interest as it contains analysis.

I have read about NDEs before. I don't believe in everything I read. I just see things the way I think make more sense, compare to other ways.

Overally NDEs is not something I'll be obsessed with, cause I already believe in the life after death.

[Mind's Eye]

How are you defining "the Christian community"? That seems to be a very broad swath for what is probably only a very small group. Therein lies my objection to many of these posts, these broad blanket statements. There are so many variations and different practices within Christianity, using such broad terms as "the Christian community" seems a rather large misrepresentation as applied to the OPs question.

You know, your right... I always plan to word that differently when I mention it in a post, but I guess I always just slap things down in that stream of consciousness way.

Although I am unsure how to word it.... any suggestions would be appreciated.

When I say, "Christian community," what I am refering to is the group of people that always seem to be more in the public eye condemning everyone and everything in such a harsh manner. I do not find this to be true Christianity.

Obviously there are many good Christian people who do not agree with the fear based dogmas of the bigger, louder groups. And these folks are certainly excluded from my poor terms of discription. :angel8:

[innerlight]

Why is it so terrible to suggest such a thing? Are you sure it isn't true? Satan is a deceiver and makes evil appear to be good. The fact that not all death experiences are the same suggests that they are seeing some kind of vision rather than experiencing reality and why can't Satan be the one inducing these visions?


So are you discrediting such things as being truthful to the reality of what is real and are merely just visions, or hallucinations, or the person that had them? And in most cases visions created by Satan to confuse and sway the person from their path?

[Scibat]

You know, your right... I always plan to word that differently when I mention it in a post, but I guess I always just slap things down in that stream of consciousness way.

Although I am unsure how to word it.... any suggestions would be appreciated.

When I say, "Christian community," what I am refering to is the group of people that always seem to be more in the public eye condemning everyone and everything in such a harsh manner. I do not find this to be true Christianity.

Obviously there are many good Christian people who do not agree with the fear based dogmas of the bigger, louder groups. And these folks are certainly excluded from my poor terms of discription. :angel8:

We agree on the true Christianity thing. Maybe give examples of specific sects that do the condemnation you mention?

Like these people are well known for being the worst kind of intolerant morons you can imagine. Even other Baptists won't have anything to do with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

[innerlight]

In the early 20th century Cacey said that there would be no more death. He added that it would not happen literally, but that how we see death would change. This is what came to mind when I read stories about NDEs for the first time.

There are too many stories to dismiss them as fantasy or as being chemically induced by a dying brain. Particularly since it has been scientifically proved that consciousness exists independent of the body. After all, we are spirit having a body.

A lot has been written about near death experiences. The best site to read about them is the neardeath.com site. Only yesterday I read again about 'the pattern' which was brought back from an NDE by Lynnclaire Dennis.
http://www.near-death.com/dennis.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.near-death.com%2Fdennis.html)

I like the subject of this post Mind's Eye and look forward to what other posters think.

I have read a few articles, or stories on that site, what I don't really like about them is that many of them are littered with religious undertones to them. Perhaps there is truth in that. Perhaps it's their perceptions creating a different reality to what truly happened so they would feel better. Perhaps they made up their stories to push their agendas. Hard to know for sure.

[Bluegreen]

I have read a few articles, or stories on that site, what I don't really like about them is that many of them are littered with religious undertones to them. Perhaps there is truth in that. Perhaps it's their perceptions creating a different reality to what truly happened so they would feel better. Perhaps they made up their stories to push their agendas. Hard to know for sure.

You must have missed this quote from that same website:
An interesting concept explained to one person during a NDE is how the afterlife appears to people in the way they need it to appear after death. This explains why the Being of Light appears as Christ to some people and as an angel or Higher Self to another. It also explains why people experience different things during their NDEs. People experience different things because people have different needs. These needs are met at the time of death

My conclusion is that we will meet what we have believed in life. People in the Western world know about Christianity. Many sayings in our languages reference the Bible. So I think that many people probably expect to see Jesus even if they were no Christians.

A quote from Mellen-Thomas Benedict's NDE story:

The information transferred to me was that during your life after death experience your beliefs shape the kind of feedback you are getting before the Light. If you were a Buddhist or Catholic or Fundamentalist, you get a feedback loop of your own stuff. You have a chance to look at it and examine it, but most people do not.[...]
I was not committed to one particular religion.

When Benedict knew that he had cancer he started "reading on various religions and philosophies."

[ROM]

Look, we all know the church rejects anything that doesn't accord with their own teachings, especially near death experiences from non-Christian people. So, don't let what the church say sway your own beliefs and values; find out what resonates with your heart and stick with it.

[Triner]

... So, don't let what the church say sway your own beliefs and values; find out what resonates with your heart and stick with it.
That's a good recommendation for pretty much everything :smile:

[Mind's Eye]

We agree on the true Christianity thing. Maybe give examples of specific sects that do the condemnation you mention?

Like these people are well known for being the worst kind of intolerant morons you can imagine. Even other Baptists won't have anything to do with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwik i%2FWestboro_Baptist_Church)

I rather enjoy the Christians that believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the power of faith. My roots are there and I still do keep them alive within. Isn't that surprising?..lol

And yes, I believe in the teachings of Christ and even read the Bible. I do not believe the new flock of writers and what not who say that Jesus never existed. I think they are twisting facts to try and prove something they wish were real.

I believe Jesus was more than a man and that he did in fact die for our sins etc etc..

But I also have my other beliefs that many Christians do not believe in or the churches teach against. And that's okay, I am who I am and they are who they are...

I think a lot of the organized religions really try to keep people down and do not want them exploring other avenues or discovering their personal, God given power.

Yet there are other Christians with an open mind who do explore and are very tolerant of others who do the same.... And to me, that's the way it should be.

[innerlight]

You must have missed this quote from that same website:


My conclusion is that we will meet what we have believed in life. People in the Western world know about Christianity. Many sayings in our languages reference the Bible. So I think that many people probably expect to see Jesus even if they were no Christians.


That is a theory that I believe is well. It may be that even upon NDE, and in some cases actual death, the illusion people carry from their life may carry over with them and taint their perceptions of truth.

[Bluegreen]

That is a theory that I believe is well. It may be that even upon NDE, and in some cases actual death, the illusion people carry from their life may carry over with them and taint their perceptions of truth.
True, but as the quote from Mellen-Thomas Benedict points out: we all get a chance to examine our beliefs, but not many people do.

[Mind's Eye]

That is a theory that I believe is well. It may be that even upon NDE, and in some cases actual death, the illusion people carry from their life may carry over with them and taint their perceptions of truth.

The spiritualists and others believe that there are other dimensions of life, and that we go higher and higher into them until we reach the ultimate truth or God. I suppose it dosen't matter all that much... I just choose to enjoy the journey. When I pass to the next life, (wherever it is,) I will do my best to progress higher.

I don't understand the people who have a scary or overly serious view of the spiritual life... I mean, it is serious business in many ways. But it is also very interesting and even fun to learn about.

I always say, everything is okay.. just sit back and enjoy the ride and the scenery along the way.

[innerlight]

True, but as the quote from Mellen-Thomas Benedict points out: we all get a chance to examine our beliefs, but not many people do.

That can be beneficial.... However, when a persons perceptions taint the truth they may not be able to reevaluate their truths for they become intertwined and caught up in their own illusions. Some of the examples, or stories, on that page reflect such things. Such as the one guy that saw Jesus who gave him chocolate to eat, which turned out to be the bible. So he went on an became a preacher and preached the bible. While it probably did help him change his perception and what he felt was true. Did it really help him see the actual truth or just paint another illusion that he is now clinging to as reality?

[innerlight]

The spiritualists and others believe that there are other dimensions of life, and that we go higher and higher into them until we reach the ultimate truth or God. I suppose it dosen't matter all that much... I just choose to enjoy the journey. When I pass to the next life, (wherever it is,) I will do my best to progress higher.



Again it's more beliefs and possibly perceptions of ones reality. Such as going higher and higher. It's not really much different than the Christian belief. With the exception of not being punished in a place of torment called Hell. Perhaps there is nothing to progress higher. Perhaps there is. Can such thoughts hinder ones growth upon passing?

[Spirit Guide Sparrow]

There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?
Any said community whose words create division, whose teachings instigate fear, and whose values include condemnation and subjugation speak not on behalf of any deity, but from a place of ignorance.

Despite the promoted intentions of every religion of the world, none, to this day, have solved the sickening poverty of the poor, the trade or use of lethal and deadly arms around the world, or the ignorance within their own hearts. How then is any such religion within a place to dispense wisdom regarding the spirit world, when the world they inhabit still escapes their understanding.

-Sparrow

[Bluegreen]

That can be beneficial.... However, when a persons perceptions taint the truth they may not be able to reevaluate their truths for they become intertwined and caught up in their own illusions. If this were true none of us would progress. Everyone would sit in their little personal boxes for eternity. Some of the examples, or stories, on that page reflect such things. Such as the one guy that saw Jesus who gave him chocolate to eat, which turned out to be the bible. So he went on an became a preacher and preached the bible. While it probably did help him change his perception and what he felt was true. Did it really help him see the actual truth or just paint another illusion that he is now clinging to as reality?

In my view we go through all kinds of stages and each stage is okay. Life is movement, change.
I read somewhere, again an NDE, "that God experiences through us," "we are God's nerve endings," or

A****er: "The drops in the river were each a different color yet all flowed together as one body of water. Nothing gave me the impression this was actually water or a river but this is the best descriptive example that can be given of something I witnessed for which there are no words.

"I understood (I use this term because I did not actually hear) the drops were the experiences of all who had lived. The experiences existed as separate items yet belonged to the whole. The whole was the collective knowledge of all. I understood there was no individual, just one, yet each experience was individual making up the whole.

[Scibat]

Look, we all know the church rejects anything that doesn't accord with their own teachings, especially near death experiences from non-Christian people. So, don't let what the church say sway your own beliefs and values; find out what resonates with your heart and stick with it.

Here we go again. What church are you referring to? As I said before there are dozens, probably hundreds of variations on Christianity, and they all have different beliefs (Some very different, some as similar is interpretations of one verse of the Bible). Tossing them all into one big box, is as unrepresentative as saying about paganism:

"All pagans are dirty tree hugging hippies." (No offense to any tree hugging hippies among you, dirty or otherwise.) :wink:

[Scibat]

Any said community whose words create division, whose teachings instigate fear, and whose values include condemnation and subjugation speak not on behalf of any deity, but from a place of ignorance.

Despite the promoted intentions of every religion of the world, none, to this day, have solved the sickening poverty of the poor, the trade or use of lethal and deadly arms around the world, or the ignorance within their own hearts. How then is any such religion within a place to dispense wisdom regarding the spirit world, when the world they inhabit still escapes their understanding.

-Sparrow

I agree with Sparrow to a point. However there are religions that genuinely try to help people. Sikhism comes to mind, as do a few other religions. For all of their bad press, the Catholic church does a lot of charity work. I think the problems of the world are just too big to be tackled by any one religion, or religious organization. It would take every religion on Earth working together to fix many of the issues plaguing the modern world.

At their core, all religions are controlled and interpreted by human beings. And humans as we all know are very flawed creatures, capable of making mistakes and being ruled by the same basic emotions as the rest of us.

While its convenient to blame religions for not fixing the world's woes, and to lash out at their flaws, I think its folly and a bit naive to expect more of religion than we do our world leaders, just because they speak of spirituality and divinity.

[Blaze]

That is a theory that I believe is well. It may be that even upon NDE, and in some cases actual death, the illusion people carry from their life may carry over with them and taint their perceptions of truth.

Which means illusion is a part of reality.

[Chrysaetos]

I agree Scibat.. it isn't black or white.

Which is why I don't believe in a religion VS spirituality, or that ''religion is bad'' and ''spirituality is good''..
when in essence they talk about the same things, can do the same things, and can both be communal or individual.

[Bluegreen]

Since your arrival here, you have been escorted through several different realms; there are many more, and nothing is restricted. Each person is free to experience fully, and the only governor is the state of the conscious mind. Deeply held beliefs are what come into visible expression here, just as they do on the dimension from which you have just come.

Not everyone will have the same experience, for truly we create our own. However, subtle energies gently press on closed, restrictive minds, and like the rosebud's petals, they slowly open and expand and are soon willing to accept greater understanding. Then they are ready to move from their limited concept of life to the eternal adventure, for there is ever more to know, to do, to be.

Some people may want to hang around their old surroundings on Earth rather than go on to discover for themselves the beauty and wisdom which is offered to them on the other side. This may take a long time, but they are coaxed along slowly.

Nothing is forced on a soul, neither attitudes nor understandings. This is why we are always counseled here on Earth never to force our beliefs on another person until one is ready to hear them. The free choice of every individual should be acknowledged ...

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research31.html

[Spirit Guide Sparrow]

While its convenient to blame religions for not fixing the world's woes, and to lash out at their flaws, I think its folly and a bit naive to expect more of religion than we do our world leaders, just because they speak of spirituality and divinity.
Such as my message is, seems misconceived as a message of blame, yet blame is irrelevant.
Solution and guidance is the key ingredient to which this forum most benefits.

If all religions performed in deed the love they preach, they would set aside their division of discipline to unite as a singular entity to solve the woes of the world. Love is a simple thing which needs not the fancy wrappings of religious indoctrination.

It is quite apparent to me the effects of religion upon souls transitioning into the spirit world. Be one to defend religion or denounce it, such is your journey to choose. But whosoever declares and personifies evil as a literal being, and deploys this belief through fear, have much to learn about spiritual wisdom.

-Sparrow

[Scibat]

Such as my message is, seems misconceived as a message of blame, yet blame is irrelevant.
Solution and guidance is the key ingredient to which this forum most benefits.

If all religions performed in deed the love they preach, they would set aside their division of discipline to unite as a singular entity to solve the woes of the world. Love is a simple thing which needs not the fancy wrappings of religious indoctrination.

It is quite apparent to me the effects of religion upon souls transitioning into the spirit world. Be one to defend religion or denounce it, such is your journey to choose. But whosoever declares and personifies evil as a literal being, and deploys this belief through fear, have much to learn about spiritual wisdom.

-Sparrow

I wasn't taking your message as laying blame Sparrow, but it made me ponder. A lot of bad things get laid at the feet of religion, and some of it is warranted. But a lot of people tend to forget that religion has also done a lot of good things as well.

As for the idea of religions unifying, I really do not think as human beings that is even possible, the only way I ever see any wide section of humanity truly unifying would be in the face of a catastrophic global event that forced us to. Even on these forums, which are supposed to be a place of safety and spiritual enlightenment we rarely can agree on ANYTHING. I think expecting any group of we mere mortals to unify to the degree necessary to really solve many of the world's current problems is very unrealistic.

I won't comment on the metaphysical aspects of various religions and the afterlife, as I am a skeptic myself on the whole afterlife thing. :cool:

[Chrysaetos]

As for the idea of religions unifying, I really do not think as human beings that is even possible, the only way I ever see any wide section of humanity truly unifying would be in the face of a catastrophic global event that forced us to. Even on these forums, which are supposed to be a place of safety and spiritual enlightenment we rarely can agree on ANYTHING. I think expecting any group of we mere mortals to unify to the degree necessary to really solve many of the world's current problems is very unrealistic. Good observation. Imo ''Unity'' in the world has all too often been an assault on individuality. We're all individual beings who discriminate, and this won't change.
Can we solve some problems? Sure. But after a while, there will be disunity and conflict again. There's no 'order' without 'chaos' so to speak..

[moke64916]

There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?
Don't believe what they are saying. They are trying to gain power by using christianity. Superiority is an illusion. In reality in my personal opinion all christians will be fooled at time of actual physical death. I believe there is no such thing as Satan. You can't, unless you can believe in 2 Gods. The universe is united with All That Was, All That Is, and All That Ever Will Be. God is the Alpha and the Omega. People that believe in Evil are saying there must be someone separate from God. Look in your heart for the answer my dear? What do you see? I Am with you always. You, 'I' Will return to Me. Back to heaven. Did You,'I' know that Hitler went to Heaven? You Reunite with Me. You are Me. Look in your heart. God hears All, because 'I' Am All. In each and every One of you, 'I'. The Universe judges Not.

Wow was that weird. Those words felt like they were channeled through me. Really. Wow.

[Avadar]

There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?
As has probably already been stated in this thread, near-death experiences occur to people across the board regardless of belief system. Even atheists have them. The Light is a universal factor in basically all NDE's. The reason why Christians do not accept the NDE research conclusions about The Light is because those conclusions go beyond Christian dogma.

From an NDE research conclusions page:

The choices we make in life matters deeply.

Life is a golden opportunity to live a spiritual life in a world of darkness.

Life is very important because how we have lived our life largely determines how far we can go into the light.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

There is no mention on that page about one having to give lip service to Jesus. Which points to it making no difference. What the non-living and infinite higher power that many refer to as The Light cares about is character, selflessness, application of The Golden Rule, and the ability to love genuinely and deeply. That's it. No affiliation to any god makes any difference whatsoever unless that affiliation or focus helps one become more spiritual in one of the key areas listed above.

Christian dogma is all about control. When that control is threatened, the label of demonic is immediately applied. Regardless, The Light continues to operate as it always has, automatically, despite what any traditional religion espouses to control the populace.

Carpe Diem!

[moke64916]

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

There is no mention on that page about one having to give lip service to Jesus. Which points to it making no difference. What the non-living and infinite higher power that many refer to as The Light cares about is character, selflessness, application of The Golden Rule, and the ability to love genuinely and deeply. That's it. No affiliation to any god makes any difference whatsoever unless that affiliation or focus helps one become more spiritual in one of the key areas listed above.

Carpe Diem!

Whom are you referring to with this paragraph?

[Scibat]

Don't believe what they are saying. They are trying to gain power by using christianity.

Who is they?


Christian dogma is all about control. When that control is threatened, the label of demonic is immediately applied. Regardless, The Light continues to operate as it always has, automatically, despite what any traditional religion espouses to control the populace.

Which Christian Dogma? Its not all the same, what group of Christianity are you referring to?

People need to seriously stop using these broad blanket terms. Christianity is not one unified religion (Or conspiracy) there are many many different branches and a lot of them don't believe the same things or go about things the same way. As I have have explained (And was apparently ignored by many in this thread.) Putting all of Christianity in one box, is a gross misrepresentation of that faith (See my previous post for examples).

But if your intent is to defame Christianity by misrepresentation, by all means continue. :rolleyes:

[Tabitha]

There is no mention on that page about one having to give lip service to Jesus. Which points to it making no difference. What the non-living and infinite higher power that many refer to as The Light cares about is character, selflessness, application of The Golden Rule, and the ability to love genuinely and deeply. That's it. No affiliation to any god makes any difference whatsoever unless that affiliation or focus helps one become more spiritual in one of the key areas listed above.

Christian dogma is all about control. When that control is threatened, the label of demonic is immediately applied. Regardless, The Light continues to operate as it always has, automatically, despite what any traditional religion espouses to control the populace.



Agreed, and although I don't always necessarily adhere 100% to the Church (Catholic) in which I was raised, the above words are pretty much word for word reiterated here:

http://www.zenit.org/article-14695?l=english

I find myself instinctively agreeing with this. The idea that God's grace could ever be confined to a relatively small sector of humanity has always struck me as ludicrous and arrogant. That concept will never sit right with me.

[moke64916]

I say they. I meant to say Us. Because I believe all people are one. That disunity is an illusion. Sometimes I get sidetracked and go back to my old ways like when I said they. I meant to say 'Us.'. Thanks for making me aware of it really. Now I'm conscious of it.

[Scibat]

I say they. I meant to say Us. Because I believe all people are one. That disunity is an illusion. Sometimes I get sidetracked and go back to my old ways like when I said they. I meant to say 'Us.'. Thanks for making me aware of it really. Now I'm conscious of it.

No worries, just wasn't sure what you meant. :smile:

[Spirit Guide Sparrow]

As for the idea of religions unifying, I really do not think as human beings that is even possible, the only way I ever see any wide section of humanity truly unifying would be in the face of a catastrophic global event that forced us to. Even on these forums, which are supposed to be a place of safety and spiritual enlightenment we rarely can agree on ANYTHING. I think expecting any group of we mere mortals to unify to the degree necessary to really solve many of the world's current problems is very unrealistic.

I won't comment on the metaphysical aspects of various religions and the afterlife, as I am a skeptic myself on the whole afterlife thing. :cool:
Yes, alas, you express much scepticism/doubt in several of your statements.

I have observed many other species forge this unity. If they can do it, so can you.

[Avadar]

Whom are you referring to with this paragraph? That should be obvious. But since it is not I will be happy to spell it out for you.

I was referring to Christian fundamentalists who believe and espouse that if one gives lip service to "Jesus" that they will be forgiven of all their "sins" and still get to heaven, even if they are shall we say, spiritually challenged.

However, the non-living and infinite higher power on the Other Side, that many refer to as The Light, sees things differently. The Light is not a respector of persons or groups. It could care less what "god" someone worships, reveres, or gives lip service to.

All The Light cares about is our spiritual integrity and our operational values and that is how we are all judged - as is evidenced by an ever-increasing number of near-death experiences, many of which are non-Christian - regardless of our belief system or religious affiliation.

[Avadar]

Hi Tabitha,

Agreed, and although I don't always necessarily adhere 100% to the Church (Catholic) in which I was raised, the above words are pretty much word for word reiterated here:

I find myself instinctively agreeing with this. The idea that God's grace could ever be confined to a relatively small sector of humanity has always struck me as ludicrous and arrogant. That concept will never sit right with me.
You embrace the broader perspective on cosmic justice.

Thank you so much for that link!

Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.
- Pope Benedict XVI

I knew that Pope John Paul II said something along those lines years before but didn't realize that Pope Benedict XVI also said something close.

If only more religious leaders followed and espoused that axiom.

Here's an even better one:

Heaven is achieved through deed, not creed.
- Emanuel Swedenborg

Cheers!

[Scibat]

Yes, alas, you express much scepticism/doubt in several of your statements.

I have observed many other species forge this unity. If they can do it, so can you.

We are molded by our experiences Sparrow, I can only go on what I have personally witnessed and experienced in my lifetime. I am however, an open minded skeptic and if I see proof of something, I am more than willing (even happy) to change my mind and my stance.

[Spirit Guide Sparrow]

We are molded by our experiences Sparrow, I can only go on what I have personally witnessed and experienced in my lifetime. I am however, an open minded skeptic and if I see proof of something, I am more than willing (even happy) to change my mind and my stance.
Moulded by, but not made victim or naively subservient to it, I would hope. You are responsible for the experiences you have a hand in to create, or fail to create, should this be the case. That which you have personally witnessed and experienced in your lifetime is the by-product of the construct of your beliefs and mindset, and the deeds that follow them. It is then to say, it is for you to first believe in something through your own innate intuition, imagination and inner-wisdom, in order that you may manifest an experience of it, and quench your thirst for proof.

Waiting idly for experiences to come to you is a state of subservience to the will of others, and encourages very little growth. One who empowers himself to choose waits not for experience to come to him, but understands he must create the circumstances for such experience to seek him out.

Bless your noble scepticism and caution, but let it not limit your power to manifest something beyond your comfort zone, or others will continue to dictate the terms and potentials of your life.

-Sparrow

[Chrysaetos]

Which Christian Dogma? Its not all the same, what group of Christianity are you referring to?

People need to seriously stop using these broad blanket terms. Christianity is not one unified religion (Or conspiracy) there are many many different branches and a lot of them don't believe the same things or go about things the same way. As I have have explained (And was apparently ignored by many in this thread.) Putting all of Christianity in one box, is a gross misrepresentation of that faith (See my previous post for examples).

But if your intent is to defame Christianity by misrepresentation, by all means continue. :rolleyes:It's all about looking at specifics. This is vital to avoid generalisations as much as possible.

[Azlore]

Think of it this way, are people more interested in what Jesus was as a person or are they genuinely interested in the content and source of where his soul came from?

I believe all our souls originate from the same place and are all made of energy as everybody's is.

[Azlore]

When people encounter this NDE and the experience that goes with it, it transforms people by showing them a new positive pathway of life. Everyone knows this life change is the direct opposite of what the "devil" wants people to live, demonic spirits want people to lead a life of deception by taking advantage of others for selfish gain.

Needless to say "satan" would not try and encourage someone to reject the very thing that demonic influences strive for, it makes no spiritual sense at all.

Another way of putting it is, an enemy does not give its opposition the tools to destroy them as it defeats the enemies plans to take over in the first place.

[Avadar]

Hi Azlore,

When people encounter this NDE and the experience that goes with it, it transforms people by showing them a new positive pathway of life. Everyone knows this life change is the direct opposite of what the "devil" wants people to live, demonic spirits want people to lead a life of deception and to take advantage of others for selfish gain.

Needless to say "satan" would not try and encourage someone to reject the very thing that demonic influences strive for, it makes no spiritual sense at all.

...an enemy does not give its opposition the tools to destroy them as it defeats the enemies plans to take over in the first place.
Quite true.

Good military example. :smile:

Namaste

[moke64916]

[QUOTE=Mind's Eye]There are many accounts of people who have died and came back. Scores of these people were not Christians and yet they saw a beautiful light, light beings, a place that looked like paradise and deceased relatives.

Yet the Christian community has responded to these accounts by saying that these individuals were deceived by Satan during their death experience. They say Satan made it look like people could go to heaven without being a Christian.

I feel that this is a terrible thing to even suggest. How do you explain these experiences?[/QUOTE

Sorry but I just have to laugh when I see threads like this. I was created by the universe. I think the universe has a sense of humor. I was baptized christrian. Apiscapaolian. I am spiritual though. All I got to say is go with your gut instinct on what you were told. Follow your, 'Ours' heart truth on the situation. If you go on the "Bio" channel and watch the show, "survivors beyond and back.". I think you will find the answer you've been looking for.

[Time]

Monotheism has a habit of making you feel guilty. IMO its how they still have a hold on so many people ( dont let them think fo themselves). Its the same thing as being a kid in sunday school, and them telling you if you dont honor your parents ( in church usualy its told to be exactly like them), you go to hell to burn for eternity. Or even stealing of anykind ( even to feed a starving family), dont repent sins ... the list goes on....

Its unfortunate, because it can be a really enlightning religion. Yet we use it liek its absolutly nothing, and fail to understand the psycological implications of telling our children this.

Repression = oppression=slavery.

The thing is, jesus says that no man will ever come into heaven ( with the exception of his deciples), and heaven is something earned, by trusting in god, after suffering the horrors of armaggeddon. Heaven as we are told, happens after the second comming of christ. It isnt a place we cant go to, its right here. It just our choice to make it heaven or hell... Thats all revalations is stating ( although it was about rome, it still has some hold on todays world)

[moke64916]

The thing is, jesus says that no man will ever come into heaven ( with the exception of his deciples), and heaven is something earned, by trusting in god, after suffering the horrors of armaggeddon. Heaven as we are told, happens after the second comming of christ. It isnt a place we cant go to, its right here. It just our choice to make it heaven or hell... Thats all revalations is stating ( although it was about rome, it still has some hold on todays world)

Sorry but I think the meaning Jesus was trying to make was misinterpreted in my opinion. I think Jesus was a Great spiritual Master. I don't believe he was anything that 'I ' can't become. A matter of fact that was his message. That we could become all that he was. We are all sons and daughters of God. There are masters just like Jesus walking our planet right now I believe. There are many masters in different cultures around the world. I already know one true Master in my opinion that is on this website. I see it like this. We were created by the Universe(God). So I am part of the universe. I believe I am equal to The universe. Disunity is an illusion to be. The universe is everything. So disunity is an illusion. The first illusion is need. It was created when people in BC times couldn't imagine themself equal to the universe(God). So need became an illusion. Does the universe need anything? No. So neither do I. The universe Is everything including all of Us. I could go n for hours, but I will stop now. It's hard for Christian to 'unfold' this. It goes against everything they were taught. I understand. It's hard to 'unmanifested' the 'manifested'.

[Bluegreen]

As for the idea of religions unifying, I really do not think as human beings that is even possible, the only way I ever see any wide section of humanity truly unifying would be in the face of a catastrophic global event that forced us to. Even on these forums, which are supposed to be a place of safety and spiritual enlightenment we rarely can agree on ANYTHING. I think expecting any group of we mere mortals to unify to the degree necessary to really solve many of the world's current problems is very unrealistic.


Not quite true, Scibat. There is the word ecumenical.
Recently, no more than a month ago, religious authorities of the Roman Cathlics, Protestants and Muslims got together in Holland to discuss how best to approach certain social issues--I forget which.

[Tabitha]

Hi Tabitha,


You embrace the broader perspective on cosmic justice.

Thank you so much for that link!

Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.
- Pope Benedict XVI

I knew that Pope John Paul II said something along those lines years before but didn't realize that Pope Benedict XVI also said something close.

If only more religious leaders followed and espoused that axiom.

Here's an even better one:

Heaven is achieved through deed, not creed.
- Emanuel Swedenborg

Cheers!

You're welcome, Avadar. :hug3: I recall being taught this in school, many years ago, and it always made sense. I'm aware that this view is seen as heretical by some fundamentalists, but I (personally) feel in my heart that it must be true - at least I sincerely hope it to be. If I'm mistaken, God can judge me, but my thoughts and intentions are honest. It really does sadden me to think that there are people out there who really believe that some will not receive God's grace, no matter if they have lived decent, selfless lives. :icon_frown:

[Tabitha]

When people encounter this NDE and the experience that goes with it, it transforms people by showing them a new positive pathway of life. Everyone knows this life change is the direct opposite of what the "devil" wants people to live, demonic spirits want people to lead a life of deception by taking advantage of others for selfish gain.

Needless to say "satan" would not try and encourage someone to reject the very thing that demonic influences strive for, it makes no spiritual sense at all.

Another way of putting it is, an enemy does not give its opposition the tools to destroy them as it defeats the enemies plans to take over in the first place.

That makes a lot of sense, Azlore. And although I haven't experienced an NDE myself, in a similar way, I've found that since I've been experiencing (what I at least think may be) spirit activity in my house, the effect on me has been to make me think more deeply about God and spiritual matters. It really baffles me that anybody could claim that the completely benign and harmless activity we have could be caused by some sort of "demon". :confused: There's nothing evil in it - but then I believe that evil comes from humans themselves, not from invisible beings whose existence I seriously doubt.

[Time]

Moke - I was speaking form a christian POV ( im not bound to one religion IMO). My personal take on revalations is that it was them speaking of rome , not us... I was just showing that its easily misinterpreted, and its easy to pu tyour own spin on it ( i didnt though, im y reading what i said is really true form the chirstian persepective..... the bible actualy never states any human, in any form will be allowed in to ehaven ( oncea gain cept the apostles)

[Scibat]

Not quite true, Scibat. There is the word ecumenical.
Recently, no more than a month ago, religious authorities of the Roman Cathlics, Protestants and Muslims got together in Holland to discuss how best to approach certain social issues--I forget which.

I head about that Bluegreen. My response is, talk is cheap.

We are certainly capable of gathering to talk about the issues, we may even agree that they need to be addressed. It all breaks down when it goes past the talking phase to the doing phase. Just look at the UN for a great example of that, it was founded to do so much more than it does today. While it talks a great game, it usually lacks the unity or power to get anything significant accomplished because the countries involved cannot manage to unify their efforts or agree on a course of action.

[Bluegreen]

Perhaps, Scibat. I am always optimistic. Time will tell.

[gentledove]

Hi everyone...I've only read a part of this, and haven't time to read all, so I'm sure there's so much more I would've liked to have responded to.

I really appreciate the reference to Neardeath.com, btw.

I think it used to be a vibrant place with many amazing and inspirational people (to me) participating.

However, I think a group of people there "ganged up" on those who held viewpoints differing from their own. They would spam their threads if they wrote a word offensive to them, "God" for instance. They hurled ad hominem after ad hominem for days after days. I truly began to wonder if they had actual lives, or if they only lived to make anyone who believed in God or angels or prayer...etc. miserable to their marrow.

Well, as could be predicted, many/most participants fled except for those who agreed with them. What sane person would want to remain in that kind of hostile environment?

I defended the people they were cyber bullying and so was also targeted...

I was then asked to leave because I wasn't representing the "true meaning of the NDE", as defined by their narrow viewpoints (of course, no God allowed) which were most sacrosanct to them.

The pure irony of it all is I've been paying for neardeath.com for many years including this year without their knowledge. I swear life is indeed a "divine comedy".:D

To me it's pure fundamentalism when people refuse to let others with viewpoints that differ from their own (but who are in no way harming others) hold those beliefs.

They seem little different to me than the Christian and Muslim fundamentalists who they despise because they insist that others must believe exactly as their religion dictates.

They wouldn't acknowledge that the particular Christians they were ridiculing never and in no way said one harmful word.

I left Neardeath.com because it was no longer a spiritually nurturing place for me. Nevertheless, I wish everyone who still participates there all best on their own personal journeys.

I've decided I gain much more from this community right here (which someone else graciously pays for :tongue:) and so...

I deeply thank that someone else!:hug3:

Oh, btw, even if the price is being made to feel unwelcome/unwanted by the "clique" at a site (I pay for, lol), I will never deny the existence of the Light/God. I certainly wouldn't do it to "belong" or be accepted, I would sooner die.

[gentledove]

Sorry but I think the meaning Jesus was trying to make was misinterpreted in my opinion. I think Jesus was a Great spiritual Master. I don't believe he was anything that 'I ' can't become. A matter of fact that was his message. That we could become all that he was. We are all sons and daughters of God. There are masters just like Jesus walking our planet right now I believe. There are many masters in different cultures around the world. I already know one true Master in my opinion that is on this website. I see it like this. We were created by the Universe(God). So I am part of the universe. I believe I am equal to The universe. Disunity is an illusion to be. The universe is everything. So disunity is an illusion. The first illusion is need. It was created when people in BC times couldn't imagine themself equal to the universe(God). So need became an illusion. Does the universe need anything? No. So neither do I. The universe Is everything including all of Us. I could go n for hours, but I will stop now. It's hard for Christian to 'unfold' this. It goes against everything they were taught. I understand. It's hard to 'unmanifested' the 'manifested'.


See how brilliant you are Moke? This poor struggling world needs people like you, imo... How could you ever think of leaving?:hug2:

[Avadar]

Hi Gentledove,

Thanks for relaying your experience with near-death.com. That was insightful and helpful.

There are a number of people in this forum, including myself, who have had problems with cyber bullies in other forums. It happens in most places.


Oh, btw, even if the price is being made to feel unwelcome/unwanted by the "clique" at a site (I pay for, lol), I will never deny the existence of the Light/God. I certainly wouldn't do it to "belong" or be accepted, I would sooner die.
GMTA
:occasion14:

Namaste

[gentledove]

Hi Avadar!:hug2:

[Bluegreen]

Gentledove, you referred to a site called neardeath.com.

It cannot be the same site I usually visit, namely near-death.com which is the best site for NDE stories and analyses. It has a chatroom but no forum.

Neardeath.com (without the hyphen) is being remodelled I saw.

[Avadar]

Hi Bluegreen,

Gentledove, you referred to a site called neardeath.com.

It cannot be the same site I usually visit, namely near-death.com which is the best site for NDE stories and analyses. It has a chatroom but no forum.

Neardeath.com (without the hyphen) is being remodelled I saw.
Good point!

I thought Gentledove was referring to near-death.com because of my quotes from their NDE research conclusions page.

It is good that we know that they are not the same thing.

Namaste

[gentledove]

Gentledove, you referred to a site called neardeath.com.

It cannot be the same site I usually visit, namely near-death.com which is the best site for NDE stories and analyses. It has a chatroom but no forum.

Neardeath.com (without the hyphen) is being remodelled I saw.

No, it's the same site...go to the homepage and click on "bulletin" in the listings, it will take you to the forum.

It is an awesome page for NDEs and I think Kevin did an amazing job interviewing NDEers to draw some meaningful salient conclusions. That is precisely why we (Scott and I) kept it alive all these years.

As far as sheer numbers of NDEs goes, NDERF is superior. I think Jody and Jeffrey Long are still adding NDEs currently.

http://www.nderf.org/

The NDERF forum was also decimated (at least I find little inspiration there anymore) by that same "gang"...I think the same group "worked their magic" at IANDS as well. I'm sure they feel they've done quite the "service to humanity", lol and feel quite proud of themselves. :wink: I hope they never find this haven!

I had hoped (a lesson in managing expectations) that neardeath would be a sanctuary where people who were grieving/lonely/afraid could come and find solace, but such is no longer the case, imo.

This site is actually much better for that. Many people here in touch with their true compassionate selves. Even disagreements are made in a respectful non-personal way.

I wish that really nice people had had the endurance to outlast the ones acting unkindly/intolerantly towards others, but that has not proven to be the case.

Anyway, ya, Kevin's homepage is awesome! Thank you for recommending it!:hug:

[gentledove]

Oh, btw, that link is inferior as it will show the latest entries being from Apr. which isn't the case. Here is a better link.

http://www.near-death-forums.com/

Best wishes everyone!

[Bluegreen]

I never used the forum at near-death.com because I never had an NDE myself.

I know NDERF and have read the stories but was not as impressed as you are. Perhaps I should have another look at NDERF again once it has been remodeled.

[Miss Hepburn]

Any said community whose words create division, whose teachings instigate fear, and whose values include condemnation and subjugation speak not on behalf of any deity, but from a place of ignorance.

-Sparrow
Whoa, don't hold back next time! :D
Excellently said.

Might I add if they teach separation - of any kind - much like 'division,
I know, but different.

:smile: Miss Hepburn

I have read and studied everything I can get my hands on about NDEs and the afterlife - including Anthony Borgia and the James E. Padgett writings/ transmissions.
Nice thread.

[Miss Hepburn]

Sorry but I think the meaning Jesus was trying to make was misinterpreted in my opinion. I think Jesus was a Great spiritual Master. I don't believe he was anything that 'I ' can't become. A matter of fact that was his message. That we could become all that he was. We are all sons and daughters of God. There are masters just like Jesus walking our planet right now I believe. There are many masters in different cultures around the world. I already know one true Master in my opinion that is on this website. I see it like this. We were created by the Universe(God). So I am part of the universe. I believe I am equal to The universe. Disunity is an illusion to be. The universe is everything. So disunity is an illusion. The first illusion is need. It was created when people in BC times couldn't imagine themself equal to the universe(God). So need became an illusion. Does the universe need anything? No. So neither do I. The universe Is everything including all of Us. I could go n for hours, but I will stop now. It's hard for Christian to 'unfold' this. It goes against everything they were taught. I understand. It's hard to 'unmanifested' the 'manifested'.
Handsake.
:hug3:

[Avadar]

Hi Gentledove,

Thanks for the clarification. :smile:

Namaste

[Miss Hepburn]

Oh, btw, that link is inferior as it will show the latest entries being from Apr. which isn't the case. Here is a better link.

http://www.near-death-forums.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .near-death-forums.com%252F)

Best wishes everyone!
Oh no, not that site - it is overrun with cynics, militant atheists, intellectuals that drive off any innocent or sweet person that hints of a belief in a Superior Power - usually by showing a picture of something horrible and saying This is what your loving God allows....it's a terribly negative and often mean-spirited forum.

Most light-hearted, helpful people have the sense to leave after a few tactless attacks.
Kia, Cloe, Marylin, Anon-a-moose, Janc are often mean, brutal, demeaning and sarcastic to so many people.
It's a painfully sad place.

Wear a garlic necklace if you do click onto it.
But look up any old posts of "Art"'s if you want some intelligent, mind expanding posts.
:wink:

[Avadar]

Hi Miss Hepburn,


Most light-hearted, helpful people have the sense to leave after a few tactless attacks...But look up any old posts of "Art"'s if you want some intelligent, mind expanding posts.
:wink:
You should invite Art to become a member in here. :smile:

Namaste

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi Miss Hepburn,
You should invite Art to become a member in here. :smile:
Namaste
I DID twice - he said some techno jargon of something something not being able to something.
Anyhow, he gave up trying to connect here.
Who knows what the problem was.... darn, people would have loved him.

(I gave him a direct link and everything.)

[Avadar]

I DID twice - he said some techno jargon of something something not being able to something.
Anyhow, he gave up trying to connect here.
Who knows what the problem was.... darn, people would have loved him.

(I gave him a direct link and everything.)
Hmmm...maybe we need to form a posse, go over there, and rope him in. :cool:

[gentledove]

Oh no, not that site - it is overrun with cynics, militant atheists, intellectuals that drive off any innocent or sweet person that hints of a belief in a Superior Power - usually by showing a picture of something horrible and saying This is what your loving God allows....it's a terribly negative and often mean-spirited forum.

Most light-hearted, helpful people have the sense to leave after a few tactless attacks.
Kia, Cloe, Marylin, Anon-a-moose, Janc are often mean, brutal, demeaning and sarcastic to so many people.
It's a painfully sad place.

Wear a garlic necklace if you do click onto it.
But look up any old posts of "Art"'s if you want some intelligent, mind expanding posts.
:wink:

*sigh* there were so many really awesome people who used to participate there weren't there? and yes...Art was one of them. Too bad the archives don't go back aways, a lot of real wisdom was lost (but I won't forget!).

Lol about the garlic necklace though. If you happen to be really cynical/intellectually oriented, really despise people who believe in God and want to dispossess them of that notion by whatever means possible, you may fit into their clique quite snugly...you may find yourself quite at home!

I prefer it here, as people of all spiritual beliefs are welcome to express themselves and share their experiences. It's a much friendlier place for someone who has been gifted the experiences I've had.

[Scibat]

*sigh* there were so many really awesome people who used to participate there weren't there? and yes...Art was one of them. Too bad the archives don't go back aways, a lot of real wisdom was lost (but I won't forget!).

Lol about the garlic necklace though. If you happen to be really cynical/intellectually oriented, really despise people who believe in God and want to dispossess them of that notion by whatever means possible, you may fit into their clique quite snugly...you may find yourself quite at home!

I prefer it here, as people of all spiritual beliefs are welcome to express themselves and share their experiences. It's a much friendlier place for someone who has been gifted the experiences I've had.
Miss Hepburn is who invited me here from there as well. I didn't care for the place, because while I am intellectual and a bit of a skeptic I am not a mean spirited person at all. At least I hope people here do not view me in that light.

[gentledove]

You are not mean spirited at all!:hug3:

I suppose if enough people who acted in a kind and tolerant fashion participated on the forum it could revive. The freshness departed for me as the levels of cynicism rose to toxic levels.:tongue:

I don't really think of people who try to force their viewpoints to the forefront by ridiculing others as mean-spirited. My thoughts are that they just think they know what's right and somehow think they're contributing to the welfare of mankind by debasing and chasing away from the discussion those they consider ignorant. If this is so I honor their intentions (not saying they're right, just that they probably think they're right), while being dismayed by their mean means.

Anyway, I've decided I don't know enough to judge anyone...and lucky me, I've found spiritual friends/inspiration here, yay!

[gentledove]

I'm absolutely sure I died, my body was barely alive but I wasn't in it. I could see my body below me. Felt a warmth behind me and saw a brilliant light. I had a choice that was not spoken to me, but I knew I was being asked if I wanted to return to this life or to go to the Other Side. The moment I had a slight thought of staying, I was propelled very fast back into my body. My arms were too heavy, my body felt unfamiliar and everything was too loud. I had bled to death (confirmed by the nurses surrounding me pushing blood as fast as they could into my body), my heart was still beating but they said a few minutes later and they wouldn't have gotten me back.

All I know is my own experiences and no, I'm not Christian; haven't been for over 25 years.

My experience is very similar...although I didn't almost die...thanks for sharing yours!

[Scibat]

You are not mean spirited at all!:hug3:

I suppose if enough people who acted in a kind and tolerant fashion participated on the forum it could revive. The freshness departed for me as the levels of cynicism rose to toxic levels.:tongue:

I don't really think of people who try to force their viewpoints to the forefront by ridiculing others as mean-spirited. My thoughts are that they just think they know what's right and somehow think they're contributing to the welfare of mankind by debasing and chasing away from the discussion those they consider ignorant. If this is so I honor their intentions (not saying they're right, just that they probably think they're right), while being dismayed by their mean means.

Anyway, I've decided I don't know enough to judge anyone...and lucky me, I've found spiritual friends/inspiration here, yay!

Thank you very much dove, I tend to fall on the logical/scientific end of the spectrum and at times that can clash heavily with the spiritual people here, and the end result I rub people the wrong way. So I figure there are a few here that think I am just a mean person. :hug:

[gentledove]

I apologize for derailing this thread with negativity.:redface:

I'll try to focus more on the positive in the future.:wink: