Science and the Mind.

[Gem]

We should understand we study our perception of the universe and the cohesion between the mind's structure and the inherantly observable, and to study what is relative is also to study the minds workings, because the universe and the mind operate the same fundamental relativity... and that aligned functioning allows the harmonious co-existance of the observer and the phenomena observed.

Modern science is much more advanced in the science of matter, and buddhist science is much more advanced in the science of mind, but now days science learns alot from the spiritual schools and spiritualizm learns much from scientific advances. In sum this leads to a deeper perspective as to the workings of things as cold hard scientists like Steven Hawkins speak of multdimensionalty and new agers about zero point fields.

It had to be this way because there is only a sincere quest to find the truth of the matter and the truth of the mind and since these operate the same way these paths were destined to cross... which they very obviously have.

The mind and the universe or mind and matter or mind body organizm or the conscious universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6l5Zh7w9yQ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253Db6l5Zh7w9yQ)

[norseman]

It is said that there are many paths on the Way, many roads to the same destination. So, it is a healthy situation that science and spirituality approach the same goal from opposite directions - a blending of strengths at the end-point.

[ROM]

Indeed. Science and spirituality do not have to be opponents of each other. If they work together in unison then they will achieve much more.

[Internal Queries]

"At the atomic level, then, the solid material objects of classical physics dissolve into patterns of probabilities, and these patterns do not represent probabilities of things, but rather probabilities of interconnections. Quantum theory forces us to see the universe not as a collection of physical objects, but rather as a complicated web of relations between the various parts of a unified whole. This, however, is the way in which Eastern mystics have experienced the world, and some of them have expressed their experience in words which are almost identical with those used by atomic physicists. "

from an article by theoretical physicist David Bohm.

[hybrid]

According to general relativity, the concept of space detached from any physical content does not exist. -Einstein

If there is only empty space, with no suns nor planets in it, then space loses its substantiality. -Buddha

Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world. -Einstein

All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements...are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of the mind. -Buddha

Time and again the passion for understanding has led to the illusion that man is able to comprehend the objective world rationally by pure thought without any empirical foundations—in short, by metaphysics. -Einstein

By becoming attached to names and forms, not realising that they have no more basis than the activities of the mind itself, error rises…and the way to emancipation is blocked. -Buddha

In our thinking...we attribute to this concept of the bodily object a significance, which is to high degree independent of the sense impression which originally gives rise to it. This is what we mean when we attribute to the bodily object "a real existence." ...By means of such concepts and mental relations between them, we are able to orient ourselves in the labyrinth of sense impressions. These notions and relations...appear to us as stronger and more unalterable than the individual sense experience itself, the character of which as anything other than the result of an illusion or hallucination is never completely guaranteed. -Einstein

I teach that the multitudinousness of objects have no reality in themselves but are only seen of the mind and, therefore, are of the nature of maya and a dream. ...It is true that in one sense they are seen and discriminated by the senses as individualized objects; but in another sense, because of the absence of any characteristic marks of self-nature, they are not seen but are only imagined. In one sense they are graspable, but in another sense, they are not graspable. -Buddha

The belief in an external world independent of the perceiving subject is the basis of all natural science. Since, however, sense perception only gives information of this external world or of "physical reality" indirectly, we can only grasp the latter by speculative means. It follows from this that our notions of physical reality can never be final. We must always be ready to change these notions—that is to say, the axiomatic basis of physics—in order to do justice to perceived facts in the most perfect way logically. -Einstein

While the Tathagata, in his teaching, constantly makes use of conceptions and ideas about them, disciples should keep in mind the unreality of all such conceptions and ideas. They should recall that the Tathagata, in making use of them in explaining the Dharma always uses them in the semblance of a raft that is of use only to cross a river. As the raft is of no further use after the river is crossed, it should be discarded. So these arbitrary conceptions of things and about things should be wholly given up as one attains enlightenment. -Buddha

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[ROM]

How can we measure a super-set reality in a subset reality using subset methods?

[hybrid]

How can we measure a super-set reality in a subset reality using subset methods?

we can't.

_____________

[Gem]

Great Einstein Buddah post Hybrid!

One has to understand the construction of a set requires a huge number of intergrated definitions.

...

Exploring the universe is to delve deep into the innards of atoms while stretching outwards to the reaches of the universe.

Exploring the mind is going inward and expanding outward...

Regardless, we search what really is to understand the truth of matter and the truth of the mind. By way of meditation or experiment we want the direct experience of what happens to be. To observe what is.

In essence science or spirituality is not the imposition of our imagination, it is pure observation born of simple curiosity. That I feel is the essence of creation.

For scientist or spiritualist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLmW2MxdI9g&feature=related

[hybrid]

Regardless, we search what really is to understand the truth of matter and the truth of the mind. By way of meditation or experiment we want the direct experience of what happens to be. To observe what is.

In essence science or spirituality is not the imposition of our imagination, it is pure observation born of simple curiosity. That I feel is the essence of creation.

yes

__________

[nventr]

While the Tathagata, in his teaching, constantly makes use of conceptions and ideas about them, disciples should keep in mind the unreality of all such conceptions and ideas. They should recall that the Tathagata, in making use of them in explaining the Dharma always uses them in the semblance of a raft that is of use only to cross a river. As the raft is of no further use after the river is crossed, it should be discarded. So these arbitrary conceptions of things and about things should be wholly given up as one attains enlightenment. -Buddha

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No one has seen an atom, yet we successfully use the periodic table to manifest things in this reality. However, all this must be dropped in order for enlightenment to take place.

[Internal Queries]

No one has seen an atom, yet we successfully use the periodic table to manifest things in this reality. However, all this must be dropped in order for enlightenment to take place.


um ... science has electron microscropes with which individual atoms can be seen.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080221153725.htm


and i wonder why research into atomics, subatomics and the periodic table must be dropped in order to reach enlightenment. care to expound on that assertion?

[nventr]

You must go past the material to either the pure light or pure dark to reach enlightenment. Neither have substance or form.

[Gem]

It's the way things are. One might imagine a futuristic pinacle where something like enlightenment occurs, but things are as they are now, and the physical table of elements is more accurate than the four earth wind fire and water elements, and indeed this electron microscope gadget detects all different atoms with accuracy and there is no reason to discount verified tested reviewed experiment.

The computer works. We don't drop our computer. Everyday it brings and sends information, and a great deal of scientific atomic quantum learning and perfectly enacted number theory are fully fledged complexities, allowing this manifest instrument to efficiently operate.

You may try to abandon all the thought, and even succeed, but the body still breathes and consciousness will return here and observe the sound smell sight taste sensation and the meandering thought occurances of your particular experience.

[Internal Queries]

You must go past the material to either the pure light or pure dark to reach enlightenment. Neither have substance or form.

the deeper science digs into atomics and subatomics the more substanceless and formless the findings become. for instance ... my vibration based "God" concepts were String Theory-like long before the String Theory.

[Gem]

the deeper science digs into atomics and subatomics the more substanceless and formless the findings become. for instance ... my vibration based "God" concepts were String Theory-like long before the String Theory.

Einstein recognized the essential dualism in nature, the co-existence of particles and waves at the level of quanta.

String theory was first published in 1970 when three physicists independantly found that dual theories describing particle spectrums also described the mechanics of oscillating strings.

It took 14 years of work and there were people finding new particles in accelerors which had to be worked in, and gravity was a problem, still is.

In '84 the theory was accepted as a way of uniting particle physics, quantum mechanics and gravity so this string theory stuff is very detailed and complex and has been around for quite a long time.

[Internal Queries]

Einstein recognized the essential dualism in nature, the co-existence of particles and waves at the level of quanta.

String theory was first published in 1970 when three physicists independantly found that dual theories describing particle spectrums also described the mechanics of oscillating strings.

It took 14 years of work and there were people finding new particles in accelerors which had to be worked in, and gravity was a problem, still is.

In '84 the theory was accepted as a way of uniting particle physics, quantum mechanics and gravity so this string theory stuff is very detailed and complex and has been around for quite a long time.


right right. i guess what i meant to say was that my "God" concepts were vibration based long before the String Theory got trendy.

[Gem]

I think the body is the instrument to study so as to learn where mind and matter inter relate, and the more concentrated the focus the sharper the mind, thus deeper the awareness and more penetrating the perception.

The synergy between the mind, body and spirit really seems the essence of a stable balanced happy life and I consider it important to engage all this mindfully and observantly.

The primal reason people are here reading this is some inner sense of lack drives them to fulfill this inate understanding that there is completion, wholeness, serenity and bliss... and I think the realization is there that they themselves inhibit and resist this 'nirvana'.

The scientist biult a huge machine to smash protons... and their purpose is to find the Higgs field... a fundamental omnipresence to all that is, but somehow their view is disconnected from the bliss of inner peace. I think so what... is there any value in discovering this wonder while misery continues? This mental learning of the physical neglects any direct experience of universal fundamentality because the spirit is neglected thus the balance unkiltered.

A spiritualist might be off with the Gods and fairies in la la land and have serious aversions to physical attachments, and will find himself out of kilter where the chop wood carry water is concerned, but this simple labour is no lesser a miracle than the flying past mars and I think best to appreciate what is whole is kept intact in the simplest part.

For us, it is to be present with any activity, and to investigate as our simple curiosity would lead us to look and see what is and space has a great expanse and also a great depth... there's deeper aspects of our physical bodies, deeper aspects of our minds, and where spirit is concerned a true appreciation and acceptance of the wonder in this moment.

[William Schuck]

While here we all are confined to the limits of our minds. Try and remember that the conversation about the universe is still where it was in the beginning.

Warm Regards,

[Lazarus72]

Regarding the scale of superstrings, did ya know...

"if an atom were magnified to the size of the solar system, a string would be the size of a tree. Yup, real small."

We're gonna need a much better microscope!!, lol. :smile:

[Gem]

While here we all are confined to the limits of our minds. Try and remember that the conversation about the universe is still where it was in the beginning.

Warm Regards,

I never understand why people insist there are limits to the mind. I understand there are limits to formal cognition, but the mind isn't bound by formality. The early discussion of the universe was vastly changed by Einsteins relativity and as fractal theory developed the discussion still changed. Quantum theory introduced the probability universe of mulitiple dimensions, and most recently how the act of observation effects or even causes universal phenoma... The discussion is by no means the same as it was when it started.

[Gem]

Regarding the scale of superstrings, did ya know...

"if an atom were magnified to the size of the solar system, a string would be the size of a tree. Yup, real small."

We're gonna need a much better microscope!!, lol. :smile:

Yes, small strings in (at least) 10 spacial dimensions... our microscope will have to see very small and also interdimensionally.

[Internal Queries]

Yes, small strings in (at least) 10 spacial dimensions... our microscope will have to see very small and also interdimensionally.

or maybe we'll listen to them.


maybe we already feel them.

[star-child]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6l5Zh7w9yQ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253Db6l5Zh7w9yQ)
Quite a few of the clips on that video are from What The Bleep Do We Know!? not sure if you have seen it before but since you created this thread, you would probably be interested in watching it. Get hold of the extended version (What The Bleep Do We Know!? Down The Rabbit Hole) :smile:

[Gem]

Quite a few of the clips on that video are from What The Bleep Do We Know!? not sure if you have seen it before but since you created this thread, you would probably be interested in watching it. Get hold of the extended version (What The Bleep Do We Know!? Down The Rabbit Hole) :smile:

Are they really?

I probably won't watch it... I just find clips that I think are interesting relevent to the subject so the thread is kinda entertaining.