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Old 09-08-2022, 01:51 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
If one had every bit of information about the universe at any given point in time and also knew all the fundamental laws of nature then in theory one should be able to accurately construct past and future from that point.
In a dream does the dream character have free will? If one attains lucidity then one understands the nature of that illusion..
It seems to me at the relative level of reality free will is tied at the hip to doership.
Your hypothetical statement that "in theory one should be able to accurately construct past and future" with an all-knowing Reality .... suggests a very deterministic, predictable, rather boring Reality with a very rigid script which is scripted down to the minutest detail. Such a Reality would logically have pre-programmed the Holocaust and horrors of a similar nature. Your statement is similar to the logic of those who preach predestination with an "all knowing God" and I have had that discussion more than enough times as it leads to some horrifying conclusions about the nature of the Reality. It also raises significant questions on the nature of time and space. There is an alternate understanding of the Reality which is more creative and dynamically unfolding in the here-and-now.

Since you brought up dreams and lucid dreaming, let's leave the hypothetical "all-knowing" Reality behind for a while and examine more precisely what happens with dreams. Having practiced conscious sleep for many years ("Know Yourself" as in the Mandukya Upanishad which you referenced indirectly), I have been able to observe the dream process from start to finish and this is more than just a lucid dream. One can observe the manifestation of time and space. One can also observe those instances when one gets entangled in the dreams particularly when working on unresolved issues. Eventually, of course, as the inner pressures which trigger dreams are addressed, the more mundane dreams cease altogether and, as the Tibetan Yogi Milarepa did, one can redirect one's attention to a subtler level of consciousness without losing a grip on levels left behind.

The sense of doership arises in dreams as well with the "dream-I" just as it manifests in the so-called waking state with the "waking-I". One discovers, of course, that both those "I"s are not what they initially appear to be. Your point on doership is quite valid, but let's address it first on the dream and/or "waking state" levels first before projecting onto the ultimate Reality.

This is a good discussion and I welcome your input on this subject.

NOTE: This would be an excellent subject for a separate thread on "Predestination" or something along those lines. It probably would belong in General Religion since the "all knowing God" seems to appear in various religions.
Old 09-08-2022, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Still_Waters
NOTE: This would be an excellent subject for a separate thread on "Predestination" or something along those lines. It probably would belong in General Religion since the "all knowing God" seems to appear in various religions.
LOL! Before I even got to this point I created a thread for this so as to not derail this one.

Old 09-08-2022, 03:24 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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JASG and Still Waters

I appreciate your enthusiasm on your pursuits but could I ask that you please refrain from heading into the whole “links” approach and the favored words of the intellectual approach … such as “doership” and “all-knowing Reality” and such?

I work hard to get this information into the board and don’t mind pertinent inquiries at all … but the heading off into intellectual-land is burying the original posts.This is all heading into a Non-Duality thread … something I really do not wish to get involved with. All of that just buries my information behind unrelated and intellectual meanderings … something I’d rather not do.

You … or someone … could start an entire “Discussion of the BEMB” thread … if anyone thinks its necessary or beneficial. I certainly do not mind discussion … but heading off into the adventurous circular debates is not what I wanted for this thread and I started this entire thread so I would not have to deal with that.

No reprimand or criticism here. Could you just … kinda leave the posts alone unless you have a strongly related question or idea … please?


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Old 09-08-2022, 03:42 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Z - I follow exactly what you're saying...just not 'here', on this thread.
What's a BEMB thread?

*I'll text in Navy Blue when I'm speaking as a Mod. :)

Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru

Old 09-08-2022, 04:05 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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B-ody, E-motion, M-ind and B-eyond. ( LoL )

Someone suggested to me privately that they wanted to start a specific discussion thread based on what my posts were saying. I have *no* idea if there is any real demand for that at all … but if there is … have at it. Maybe people would really like it. It could … with any real involvement … twist and turn and tie in a lot of interesting tidbits of info. If someone wants to start that … I’m not against that at all.

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Last edited by zorkchop : 09-08-2022 at 05:30 PM.
Old 10-08-2022, 02:26 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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Again … please do not overlook the original post this week … post #597 on page 60 at the moment … on Truth. What is below is an offshoot of that.

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It occurs to me … after this last rather tame yet adventurous episode with the “intellectual approach” that … in all fairness … perhaps I should define what the “intellectual approach” is … and this will be my personal take based on the various dimensions and planes of Existence.

The need and use for mind is to collect data from past experiences … the relationship between forms and patterns … to assist in making choices on what is beneficial verses detrimental to each individual concerning their understanding of what is happening around them … mostly outwardly. Mind uses the impulses sent to it by the senses … to make the determinations.

These so-called “relationships” are the basic nature of the polarity of the Lower Psychic Worlds. It’s either this or that … “doership” verses “non-doership” … real consciousness verses illusionary consciousness … existence … proof … identity … etc … all verses its opposite … all working hard to part out the Whole into smaller increments so it can be better understood … only to be lost in the word definition game. This is a categorization of effect … for the entire Lower Psychic Worlds are of and for effects … set about by cause … from “someone” … “somewhere.”

This comparison is necessary. How else would we determine which choice is better or worse … so to speak. “My guru is better than yours” … “my set of teachings / teacher is better than yours” … “the words I use are better than yours” … and this often builds into an arrogant pride.

Authority counts big time here. The more status your references hold … the greater your perceived stance. Their recreation is comparison and debate … often for its own sake. It is often … addictive.

This is all part of the game and is not a critical assessment. Mind does what it does … it’s how we use it and our reliance on it that gives more or less value to the tool that it is. If someone possesses a hammer … then everything is a nail. Soon most everything is pounded to death … but that too … provides a sort of mental excitement. They will happily design their own terms, words, rules, and beliefs to support their stance … whatever it may be.

The downfall of the intellect is that they will not listen. Somewhere I put … or am about to put … a working definition of the word humility … a facet that often suggests weakness … from the web … “ lowliness of mind” and “a low estimate of oneself” and “self-abasement.” There is one site that suggests humility means not taking our desires, successes, or failings too seriously.

From some of the higher sets of teachings … humility means more of an absence of vanity or pride. And from this … one can understand … that humility leads to the willingness and ability to … listen. I’m not suggesting a sponge-like absorbency of anything that comes along. But a humble person will at least … listen … or … consider … which is the purpose of my using “Considerations” for the name of this thread. It does not mean that anyone is to blindly accept. The first edict of any true authentic Master is … go out and prove it for yourself.

But the intellect is the Disneyland of words, definitions, relationships, categories, etc … which I have suggested forever. It is fabulous fun … and can provide a nice income and level status … even big-time notoriety. It can keep an individual involved for hundreds of thousands of lifetimes … happily so.

IF one is to even mildly accept what I said here … to find someone who has begun to work beyond the intellectual approach … is rare indeed. That does *not* mean they are superior in any way.. They often have just had enough … and have questions that the intellectual approach cannot address adequately.

There are many stances before and beyond these two broad approaches.

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Last edited by zorkchop : 10-08-2022 at 04:30 PM.
Old 10-08-2022, 03:39 PM
hazada guess hazada guess is offline
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Brilliant zorkchop.
Old 13-08-2022, 03:25 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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This is a supplement to this weeks post on Truth is a Ladder … page 60 … post #597.

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I watched with interest as a video clip showed two people asking a renown spiritual mentor … “Is truth relative or absolute?” Once again … the “either - or” approach kills awareness. It’s both. Each individual understanding of Life is relative to where they are on the Path … and LIFE originates from the absolute Core Creator God and emanating life forces.

Why struggle to make it more difficult to understand than it is?

This is often when you will leave “proof” behind. Leaving the traditional teachings of “proven” factors … you will begin to develop what you will often rely upon for a very long time. If someone demands “proof” … that often suggests where *they* are and not where *you* are … and it develops the characteristic attitude of being willing to take the risk to go farther in it all to uncover and discern greater Truth … from whatever position you hold at the moment. You are willing to reach up and take hold of that next rung on the ladder even when your own mind … and others … scream “danger … danger.” Keep it simple … keep it cautious … reach for the larger picture of LIFE.

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I will be posting twice next week … Monday will involve my regular post … and Thursday I will post a very short summary of the planes or dimensions … it might be beneficial to some.

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Old 15-08-2022, 12:55 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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Consideration 145 …

YOU … are the focal point …

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I want to develop a vital point a bit more … with the hopes of it clarifying a few divergent ponderings and bringing them into somewhat of a more clear focus.

Of prime importance … let it be known and accepted that the Core Creator God is the hub … the focal point … the center … of Existence Itself and of the Life Force which allows for the existence of subsequent continuance. There are many “gods” that the traditional teachings promote that supposedly hold the same position … but these “gods” are the “gods” of the Universal Mind / Lower Psychic Worlds only. They certainly still play a vital role in it all.

Once the Core Creator God has put into “action” the development of IT’s own essence in Divine Spirit … the next necessity is to specialize this Divine Spiritual force. *Divine Spirit Self has no controlling “brain” or consciousness* … and so … we … as Soul … are the focal point for the distribution of this Life Essence. In this way … man was created in the image of God.

We are the nucleus of our own perception of Life … as Existence … and we carry that out into Existence IT-self. We are the broker … the distributor … the dispenser … the director … the specializer … the transmutation … the modifier … the molding … the narrowing … the localizing … the restricting … the telescoping … Soul is and was made to do this very function. There is no other way for the “forming” of Divine Spirit into anything … and this becomes even more vital as each drops into the Lower Psychic Worlds where mind adds its own layer / understanding / spin on what we “see” around us and how that forms our own interaction and understanding within life … ours … and the whole within which we all live.

Where you focus … defines “everything” … for you as the individual. Mind is the tool of analysis and comparison … where you focus is what you will attract to yourself. There is no effect without a cause. Things don’t “just happen.” Neither are things “just thought.” Back to the water-hose scenario … where your focus draws similar thoughts that are always around us … until one works into the Etheric Plane where it is all symbols … and yes … words and images prevail here and form the basis of subsequent thought but more on a singular basis and not as part of a word-string.

Some online authority mystically claims “you are not the thinker of the thought”… and he would be right. No one may have set out to *think* the thought … but if you are standing in the thought stream … then those thoughts will come and continue. That is why you have to rise above common thought … or traditional thought … or habitual thought … or patterned thought … etc.

Like choosing to go stand in front of a fan and then objecting to air blowing on you. Your choice to go stand there … sets you up. You do not have to purposively think the thought … but if you’re standing in that group thought stream … that thought *will* drift through. People refuse to acknowledge the overall thought streams that are around us all the time … drawn to us by habit and pattern. Like attracts like … most are as individualized as a fingerprint.

How many times have you *ever* stood / sat down and said / thought to yourself … “Okay … in a few seconds I’m gonna think this specific thought about this specific topic … “ … and then proceeded to do so.

When the various traditional authorities / mentors / advisors claim the “you are not the actual thinker of the thought … they are right … for the most part … but that’s like saying … when you tune in a radio station on your receiver … the radio does not contain the station itself but merely “tunes in” and relays it to you.

As you expand your state of consciousness via inner or outer work … you step into a new “layer” of the prevailing thought streams pertaining to the various topics of thought … all gathered together by like attracts like … fine-tuned down to the most minute detail. You draw them to you via your focus and attitude … which would include your emotional response … subtle or otherwise … to the various thought fields. The ethers are filled with this data … for lack of a better word. In many ways the human experience is nothing more than being a “receiver” of these thought streams … nurtured by previous lifetimes of focus on similarities … carried on in this lifetime.

But of course … mind being what it is and how it was designed to analyze and compare … mind will rouse all kinds of spin-offs … me or not me … if I see it or hear it then I’m separate from it and this means I’m either lost or found ( depending on the idealistic mental goal you have going at the moment ) … as mind proceeds to dance off into an endless spin on anything it wishes to consider.

So if you turn off awareness and drift in the zombie state where you are one with all and there is no separation … you experience Oneness / Wholeness / no separation / Unity. In other words … stop the mind … and become nothing and everything … at the same time. That … is often the traditional premise.

So … if Soul is and was created to be the solitary, independent focal point and distributor for Spirit … at whatever level … and decides to just turn it all off … and without a doubt this is a phase which we all involve ourselves in eventually … but do you really think Soul was designed to just eventually turn it all off and … stare thoughtlessly into the abyss?

How about this?

Once mind is set aside … not as a blank … but as a tool that claws for attention and definition … and those moments when mind does quiet down and … one still perceives … is aware … are you not just beginning to discern … mind verses Soul? You are at a crossroads … to begin to uncover and determine … just what does Soul Itself have to do with all of this and how does It do that?

Mind screams … “No … no … come back to me.”

Soul says … “Now there’s gotta be a way … it’s not a way I’ve used before … and just maybe I need to let myself as Soul explore a bit more before I just drift about as a blank state of awareness.”

Welcome to the new arena. Welcome to the new ball park. There *is* no “automatic soaring.” The Prime Directive of LIFE … if you will … is that *everything* is learned … and earned. Nothing … is given as a freebie. You will “soar” … if you know how … and where.

And with everyone around you continuing to use the traditional teachings to understand … just consider … what are the lessons now … what is being popularly promoted now … and is there anyone around who can help me figure this out? Versions of these traditions have been around forever.

Yes … there is.

But first you must be intensely honest with yourself … acknowledge that mind has been the master for so very long … but now your deep, deep hunger for actual long-lasting, foundational truth gnaws at you … and now that you heavily pondered that there really is “two sides” to me … or mind verses Soul Itself … you wonder … just what *is* this thing called … Soul ?

Welcome to the updated adventure.

More next Monday.

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A 90-post index is found at thread post number 368 … page 37

A second index for posts 92 - 120 is on page 50 … post # 499

Both posts may move a bit due to welcomed moderator editing. They both will be in the “vicinity” of the above locations.

If sincere … I will respond to private messages

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Old 18-08-2022, 02:59 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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The Planes or Dimensions …

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Thanks to spiritoceanrainfall … I am finally able to get a viewable image into the board. My thanks to that member.

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I am going to make this quite basic. Please understand that the “shape” of the dimensions is not actually in an hourglass form … but the moving upwards through them severely bottlenecks above the etheric plane and the “equator” so to speak … would be the 5th region … Sat Lok ( Lok meaning plane ) … Atma Lok … true home of Soul Itself … other names have certainly been used … and this “plane” would be Soul’s first step into the pure regions of the God Worlds … and the first region Soul Itself would be without any “external” body or sheath … for the duration that the experience lasts. This is a large part of the concept of the “Narrow Way.”

Secondly … these are very broad distinctions … for within each of these “dimensions” are many, many sub-planes that would be grouped into the more broad level. There are hundreds … if not thousands … of sub-planes that belong in the astral plane. In the Lower Psychic Worlds … no plane is a solitary area … again … so to speak.

The planes or dimensions apply to the various “sheaths” or “bodies” that are often referred to that surrounding Soul Itself in the Lower Psychic Worlds. The physical plane would apply to the physical body … next would be the astral … which would be the emotions … then the mental worlds … more often than not divided into three very general distinctions … the causal … which would be memories held from lifetime to lifetime … the mental worlds of habitual thought patterns and beliefs would be the next … or 4th … and the last plane in the mental worlds would be the etheric … which deals with symbols and the imagery that portrays them. Those would be the five Lower Psychic Worlds planes … physical, astral, causal, mental, etheric.

This is a part of “Know Thyself.” All is *not* contained within the physical body … in fact … little is. We “feel” them … and many facets … such as thought … are “focused through” the physical body … but they are neither contained nor are a real part of the physical body.

Third … most portrayals of the planes have them stacked in a pancake style … but this is is a bit misleading. These dimensions distinguish themselves one from the other by rate of vibration and all stack upon themselves in the same “space.” We are encapsulated in all of them at the same time but can be aware of only what we can experience via our ability and level of awareness. We cannot “see” the astral plane with the physical eyes but we can visually see that plane via the third eye … or the spiritual eye … with training.

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The lowest rung on the ladder … so to speak … would be the material worlds … the physical plane … the plane of matter, energy, space, time … science … the physical body … the tendency and illusion that the outer world and life is the “real” world.

The astral plane is the plane of emotions. When we feel emotions … which is almost impossible not to do while in the physical world … we are feeling it through the astral body. This is often referred to as the Anda Lok. This is the vast, vast region within which most of our dreams take place at night.

The causal plane … often referred to as the Brahmanda Lok … is the seat of our physical incarnations, memories, and karmic implications. This would be the site of the infamous Akashic Records.

The mental worlds … seat of the universal mind power … the philosophies, ethic and moral teachings tend to locate here … aesthetics …

The etheric plane … often accepted as the subconscious or unconscious areas … an area of symbols and rather primitive thought … and tends to be a very thin sheath or body between the mental areas and Soul Itself.

There is a vast void at the top of the etheric plane … guarding or obscuring the Soul Plane … which could be thought of as an “equator” between the two sets of dimensions. Above the 5th Plane … the Soul Plane … Sat Lok … Atma Lok … (many other names) … there are many pure worlds of the Pure God Worlds that do have names but are not as distinguishable as the Lower Psychic Worlds bodies. Eventually … one gets to the actual Core Creator God IT-self … at the center … although there are reportedly other “dimensions” beyond that area.

The “names” given these regions are more for the individuals ability to at least have that much “structure” within these very non-structure or no-thing or formless worlds. All these regions have to do with foundational consciousness … non-specific consciousness … the building blocks of what we call consciousness here in the Lower Psychic Worlds. Obviously … there is no shape or form. Just what *is* consciousness without form has tied up definition forever. We here in the Lower Psychic Worlds have enough trouble understanding consciousness when it “has” structure and form as distinguished by it various perceived experiences here … such as physical vs emotional vs mental vs subconscious or unconscious … etc.

While in the physical body … everything is designed to be felt as “contained” within the physical body itself … and this obscures the reality that the emotions, thoughts, etc … are very different than the physical body and all of this is not simply contained and grouped as physical experience. Many believe that emotions are just something that the body feels … when they are actually a distinct and different layer that helps to protect Soul Itself … but yes … to give emotional sentimentality to physical experience. The same would apply to the mental worlds … especially memory … for if memory were distinctly part of the physical body we would not be able to carry *any* memory forward from lifetime to lifetime. As it is … since so many of our “memories” are based out of current lifetime experiences … when the physical body “dies” … those specific conditions and situations “die” too … but the “attitude towards” or the “essence of” these situations are carried over and then redesigned into the next or following lifetime.

Lastly … please understand … that the entire grasp of “vibration” goes far beyond what is currently accepted. The entire schoolroom … and the worlds above and below … are designed to be invisible to any and all levels just above where any specific individual is. In other words … one cannot “see” or “be aware of” what is just beyond … or “higher” than they are … because that is vibrationally invisible to them. It is not just a matter of being ignorant of … whatever. One cannot *see* beyond where they are … and all must be learned … and earned … one step at a time.

Also … please understand … I did not design this. Existence is … what it is … in formed or formless variations … for a reason … and that is … for the education of Soul Itself.

A real esoteric tidbit … probably disputed by many … we have all visited the astral plane. This is the prime area where we each individually go during the nightly dream state … whether we remember our dreams or not.

More next Monday.

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