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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #1  
Old 22-02-2021, 09:56 AM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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A Thought on the Interconnectedness of All Life

It's been a while since I was here, but life has kept me occupied elsewhere for a bit. But I read something this morning and feeling that it so aptly explained my own philosophy, I thought of sharing it here.

The author is Dr. Will Tuttle and his post appears on a blog called One Green Planet. https://www.onegreenplanet.org/anima...vegan-anymore/

The key to inner peace, joy, health, and freedom, not just for ourselves, but for our culture, is questioning the indoctrinated food program we see both around us and also arising within us, and making an effort to quiet our minds so that we connect with the transpersonal dimension of our consciousness.
By going vegan, we create a solid foundation for authentic spiritual progress so that our mind can relax and open to its source, and we can directly experience the truth that what we are is not a mere physical body with a mind and personal history. We are not limited to this accumulation that we self-identify with. We are life itself: eternal, infinite, free, and of the nature of love, joy, creativity, and understanding. Our purpose is to awaken directly to the truth that we are, and to discover and contribute our unique gifts to our world in the brief and precious time that we are here on this planet. When this awakening unfolds in us, we grow to love our life, and to love all manifestations of life, and we see beyond the mere outer forms to the radiant splendor shining within all expressions: people, animals, communities—all are celebrations of one life, completely interconnected and interdependent.

A deeper compassion arises that forever frees us from the delusion that we can ever benefit from harming or using others. Our veganism is no long “veganism.” It is our true nature spontaneously expressing as inclusiveness and kindness for all living beings. We are simply living naturally, and our greatest joy is contributing to the happiness of others.
******

I was involved in a discussion this morning and in doing a little research to back up a point, I happened to come across this gem which is part of a much longer essay. I think it’s beautiful to tell you the truth and thought I’d share it here. I wonder if it rings any bells for some of you here, as it does for me?
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #2  
Old 23-02-2021, 06:32 AM
pixiedust pixiedust is offline
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Thanks, good post.
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  #3  
Old 23-02-2021, 07:16 AM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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I believe that everything is consciousness, and that everything is in contact at a non-physical level. I don't mean a negotiation or a collaboration.

This includes non-physical beings as well as all physical kingdoms. Death doesn't exist as a tragic act, as it just is a wake up into another reality, to one's whole-self.

The physical kingdoms are bell distributions related to the degree of evolvement of the units of consciousness on the progression: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. Plants develop instincts; animals are dominated by instincts developing emotions; man is dominated by emotions developing intellect.

Every unit of consciousness from the elemental, to the more complex, to gestalts has free will, its individuality and its own evolvement path, nothing being preordained. Hence the infinite variability at all levels.

Out of ignorance, we tend to anthropomorphize the wider reality. It isn't useful; it isn't inconvenient. It becomes a problem only for the individuals who err into anger, hate, fear, as it affects their own well-being (thoughts and emotions bring into one's reality situations, manifestations that tend to bring the same kind of thoughts and emotions).
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #4  
Old 25-02-2021, 01:52 AM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
I believe that everything is consciousness, and that everything is in contact at a non-physical level. I don't mean a negotiation or a collaboration.

This includes non-physical beings as well as all physical kingdoms. Death doesn't exist as a tragic act, as it just is a wake up into another reality, to one's whole-self.

The physical kingdoms are bell distributions related to the degree of evolvement of the units of consciousness on the progression: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. Plants develop instincts; animals are dominated by instincts developing emotions; man is dominated by emotions developing intellect.

Every unit of consciousness from the elemental, to the more complex, to gestalts has free will, its individuality and its own evolvement path, nothing being preordained. Hence the infinite variability at all levels.

Out of ignorance, we tend to anthropomorphize the wider reality. It isn't useful; it isn't inconvenient. It becomes a problem only for the individuals who err into anger, hate, fear, as it affects their own well-being (thoughts and emotions bring into one's reality situations, manifestations that tend to bring the same kind of thoughts and emotions).

I was pretty much in agreement with you until you said we anthropomorphize the wider reality, and as I see it, that's an effort to disengage from human responsibility as it pertains to the critters and their emotions. And they do have emotions. They feel love, joy, grief, fear....just like us. An orca whose calf has died will carry it with her for 17 days, a cat whose kittens have been killed but not eaten will draw their cold little bodies to herself and try to nurse them and warm them as she grieves. A cow will chase the farm as he drives away with the calf she has just birthed. A pig will leap for joy in the freedom of the sunshine that warms the sanctuary where she has been blessed with safety, and likewise a horse will stand trembling in fear as she's forced into the kill box.... So it's not necessary that we anthropomorphize anything, they experience the identical feelings that we have. They exist as individual entities and we only recognize their emotions. The only time that becomes 'inconvenient' to us is when it interferes with our plans for them.

You've said that '
Every unit of consciousness from the elemental, to the more complex, to gestalts has free will, its individuality and its own evolvement path, nothing being preordained.'

They are individual units of consciousness no less than we are, just as you have already agreed. So then that means if we decide to take their lives from them, we are interfering with their free will after we have pre-ordained their deaths by causing them to be born.
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #5  
Old 25-02-2021, 02:22 AM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
I was pretty much in agreement with you until you said we anthropomorphize the wider reality, and as I see it, that's an effort to disengage from human responsibility as it pertains to the critters and their emotions. And they do have emotions. They feel love, joy, grief, fear....just like us. An orca whose calf has died will carry it with her for 17 days, a cat whose kittens have been killed but not eaten will draw their cold little bodies to herself and try to nurse them and warm them as she grieves. A cow will chase the farm as he drives away with the calf she has just birthed. A pig will leap for joy in the freedom of the sunshine that warms the sanctuary where she has been blessed with safety, and likewise a horse will stand trembling in fear as she's forced into the kill box.... So it's not necessary that we anthropomorphize anything, they experience the identical feelings that we have. They exist as individual entities and we only recognize their emotions. The only time that becomes 'inconvenient' to us is when it interferes with our plans for them.

You've said that '
Every unit of consciousness from the elemental, to the more complex, to gestalts has free will, its individuality and its own evolvement path, nothing being preordained.'

They are individual units of consciousness no less than we are, just as you have already agreed. So then that means if we decide to take their lives from them, we are interfering with their free will after we have pre-ordained their deaths by causing them to be born.
When I wrote "we tend to anthropomorphize the wider reality", I also meant the reality beyond death, and giving that reality characteristics and values we consider human. It is also true that I believe that we assign animals and plants feelings and emotions, as well as intelligent behavior as we see them, not as they are experienced by those. And I mean this in no derogatory way.

Death is a necessary end of an Earthly experience, and the way I understand reality, it always happens with the agreement of the non-physical part of the unit of consciousness (plant, animal, human) that dies. I don't think of it as something that can be only physically determined, and it is a waking into another reality, a non-physical one.

The suffering that happens at all levels (plant, animal, human) isn't necessary for evolvement, but inherently happens because of one's own innate ignorance (not used here as a pejorative qualifier), and it isn't caused by external sources.

It seems that there is no Earthly life that can exist without expending other vegetable and / or animal lives. I think that any kind of death is just a necessary and agreed way out of here.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #6  
Old 25-02-2021, 03:05 AM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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You also said:

I believe that everything is consciousness, and that everything is in contact at a non-physical level................This includes non-physical beings as well as all physical kingdoms. Death doesn't exist as a tragic act, as it just is a wake up into another reality, to one's whole-self.

If everything is consciousness and in contact at the non-physical level, that would include all the animals, the trees, rocks, mountains, etc. Would you accept that? And if everything is consciousness and the animals have their own emotions that we can recognize simply by watching them, that suggests definitively, that we are All One (with that same over-arching Consciousness that energizes us all. And to follow that to the logical conclusion, to hurt one of them is to hurt us all.

There are all kinds of Bible verses too, that tell us to be careful for our animals interests. Coupled with the original admonition that we all eat plants and taking into consideration that the New Earth will see the 'wolf lay down with the lamb and the leopard will eat straw like the ox', it's pretty obvious to see how the Biblical God (the Oneness, the Source of All That Is) had planned for animals to exist in the hierarchy of Creation.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21
18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?” (and that's a question that is obviously meant to challenge the notion that we might have a different destination than the animals)

The question as I see it, then remains, how can any of us preordain the existence of another, force them live in squalor and terror and then take the one thing that is theirs, particularly if we have the understanding that we all have the same Source and will return to to that Source at death.

When I've tried to understand Source and Oneness, the easiest picture that I've been able to come up with, is that it's like a lava lamp. There's a Universe of Love just overhanging this world and periodically, little bits and blobs of that Love separate for a time and move into this relativistic world, bounces around gaining experiences through our humanity until the time comes for it to return to the greater Universe of Love where it blends right back in with it's original Source. As you've already agreed that we are all consciousness, it seems reasonable then to accept that the animals also 'blend right back in with their original Source'. Which begs the question then, why would we want to injure ourselves (we are all One) over and over and over again as we infringe on the free will of other parts of Ourself. Does not make a whole lot of sense and especially as we now know how to live without doing that, especially if our goal is to live in spiritual harmony.
__________________
We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #7  
Old 25-02-2021, 04:46 AM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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You spent time expressing your opinions, so I thought you deserve an honest reply, even if we disagree.

I don't intend to convince you of anything, nor to argue. I'm just honestly replying to the points you made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
You also said:

I believe that everything is consciousness, and that everything is in contact at a non-physical level................This includes non-physical beings as well as all physical kingdoms. Death doesn't exist as a tragic act, as it just is a wake up into another reality, to one's whole-self.

If everything is consciousness and in contact at the non-physical level, that would include all the animals, the trees, rocks, mountains, etc. Would you accept that?
Yes
Quote:
And if everything is consciousness and the animals have their own emotions that we can recognize simply by watching them,
Not really. There are various levels of emotions, and what we interpret them feeling, I believe isn't what they experience. They are dominated by instincts; we are dominated by emotions.
Quote:
that suggests definitively, that we are All One
No. I aren't All One. We are all connected, at a non-physical level. We here are only some part of our whole selves. We are All Individuals, with individual will, and individual paths.
Quote:
(with that same over-arching Consciousness that energizes us all. And to follow that to the logical conclusion, to hurt one of them is to hurt us all.
No. And it isn't a matter of hurting anybody. Nobody gets hurt. That is an example of anthropomorphizing.
Quote:

There are all kinds of Bible verses too, that tell us to be careful for our animals interests. Coupled with the original admonition that we all eat plants and taking into consideration that the New Earth will see the 'wolf lay down with the lamb and the leopard will eat straw like the ox', it's pretty obvious to see how the Biblical God (the Oneness, the Source of All That Is) had planned for animals to exist in the hierarchy of Creation.
I am not familiar enough with any dogmas, and it doesn't mean that if that's written there it is so. It doesn't mean that what one is interpreting to be said in a dogma, it is true, because all the seminal texts are symbolic.

Oneness is a misunderstanding. It is looking backwards (Source). The wider reality is in permanent expansion and individualization. All That Is doesn't really mean anything, in my view. It is just a place holder.

Animals, as plants, as minerals, as humans are part of an evolvement hierarchy. Nobody gets hurt in it by others, only by themselves.

Quote:
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21
18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?” (and that's a question that is obviously meant to challenge the notion that we might have a different destination than the animals)
That's somebody's belief. Everybody can believe whatever they want and / or can.

No life-form can survive without feeding from another life-form. You have to draw the line somewhere. The way human body is built, humans are designed to be omnivores.
Quote:

The question as I see it, then remains, how can any of us preordain the existence of another, force them live in squalor and terror and then take the one thing that is theirs, particularly if we have the understanding that we all have the same Source and will return to to that Source at death.
As I've previously written, physical death is just re-focusing into another reality, and it is decided by the one that dies, not by any external will.

We won't return to any Source. That is a misunderstanding. We expand away from where we originated, we individualize more and more.
Quote:

When I've tried to understand Source and Oneness, the easiest picture that I've been able to come up with, is that it's like a lava lamp. There's a Universe of Love just overhanging this world and periodically, little bits and blobs of that Love separate for a time and move into this relativistic world, bounces around gaining experiences through our humanity until the time comes for it to return to the greater Universe of Love where it blends right back in with it's original Source. As you've already agreed that we are all consciousness, it seems reasonable then to accept that the animals also 'blend right back in with their original Source'. Which begs the question then, why would we want to injure ourselves (we are all One) over and over and over again as we infringe on the free will of other parts of Ourself. Does not make a whole lot of sense and especially as we now know how to live without doing that, especially if our goal is to live in spiritual harmony.
I've already expressed my opinions and these.

I respect your right to believe whatever you believe.

When a mineral, plant, animal, human "kills" another doesn't infringe on that unit of consciousness' free-will, ever! Any unit of consciousness may will whatever they want or can, it doesn't mean that they'll get it. That's why we all go on this evolvement path, to grow, to become independent self-determining entities, to expand limitless (not to return to nothing).

The emotions a unit of consciousness feels creates situations that perpetuate those emotions. If you feel sad, sorry, fearful, angry, hateful, you create in your existence situations that cause you to feel more of the same, sad, sorry, fearful, angry, hateful. You don't help in any way the one you feel sorry for. You don't hurt in any way the one you hate. Your emotions affect only your reality, hence yourself.

Anyway, you spent time expressing your opinions, so I thought you deserve an honest reply, even if you disagree with it.

EDIT: We aren't here to live in spiritual harmony. We're here to practice conscious reality creation, until we can do it well enough to function in an instantaneously thought-responsive reality, as the wider reality is.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.

Last edited by inavalan : 25-02-2021 at 05:40 AM.
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  #8  
Old 25-02-2021, 11:18 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
When I wrote "we tend to anthropomorphize the wider reality", I also meant the reality beyond death, and giving that reality characteristics and values we consider human. It is also true that I believe that we assign animals and plants feelings and emotions, as well as intelligent behavior as we see them, not as they are experienced by those. And I mean this in no derogatory way.

Death is a necessary end of an Earthly experience, and the way I understand reality, it always happens with the agreement of the non-physical part of the unit of consciousness (plant, animal, human) that dies. I don't think of it as something that can be only physically determined, and it is a waking into another reality, a non-physical one.

The suffering that happens at all levels (plant, animal, human) isn't necessary for evolvement, but inherently happens because of one's own innate ignorance (not used here as a pejorative qualifier), and it isn't caused by external sources.

It seems that there is no Earthly life that can exist without expending other vegetable and / or animal lives. I think that any kind of death is just a necessary and agreed way out of here.

*Alert - some is too graphic for sensitive people* -Miss Hepburn

You said we assign human attributes in the reality beyond death…and that we assign animals feelings and emotions …. As we see them, not as they are experienced by them..

Seems to me that suggesting that the dog who bounces around in joy at your return home isn’t experiencing joy, is an effort to wiggle away from what our eyes tell us. You’re pretending that it’s only us assigning a label (joy) to all that activity around us. But they aren’t really experiencing joy. It likewise seems a real stretch to suggest that the cow standing in the kill box and shaking violently with eyes bulging is not experiencing abject terror.

But I’m not only and specifically referring to the death of animals when I talk about what we do to them. There’s also no excusing everything that leads to that crossing for the animals that endure our not tender mercies. From birth to death, we torment and abuse and create suffering victims for their entire lives because humanity primarily assumes that the only ones who count are us. And we do that by taking away the Oneness that we know in our inner being, is who we and they are. We tell ourselves that their ‘joy’ is only us assigning a human type trait to what they’re doing. Running, frolicking with one another, cuddling and purring over their kittens, the cooing of the mother hen as she clucks softly to her tiny chicks. We say they don’t experience love. And we dismiss their trembling and terrified, bulging eyes and learn not to see their fear. Because it’s inconvenient to us, to see it.

Plants on the other hand, are a system whose sole purpose is to draw carbon out of the atmosphere and to convert that carbon with the energy of a star to to make more of our carbon structures so that who we really are, is able to experience Self in this reality. That’s why plants don’t have a brain or nerve endings or eyes, ears and noses to see danger coming. And why they didn’t develop fins, wings or feet……because they are only a system set up for the purpose of maintaining animal life in this reality. They have no need to escape because they have a job to do.

A plant’s ‘responses’ are either the results of hydraulic changes when a leaf is plucked or responses to the energy impulses of our thoughts, but not thoughts innate to them as yours or mine or my cat’s are to each of us individually. Just like everything else in the Universe, everything is only energy including the thought charges in the flickering neurons of our brains. Electrical impulses and chemical signals inside a mass of atoms made up of particles ever smaller that blink in and out of existence, each having an impact on the atoms next to them. Our kind words spoken to plants are felt by them as we feel the impulses of music and are affected by those rhythms and pulsations. Only energy charges affecting atoms at a cellular level.

We on the other hand, are only here in order that God/Source/Allah/Oneness/the Field may know Itself. And our process of that knowing means we come here and don’t remember our connection to that Source but over lifetimes come back into knowingness. We evolve spiritually, drawing ever closer to a moment when we are Awakened from our forgetfulness and know that we are all one with All.

From all the experiences that NDE’ers have revealed of their moments on the other side, we’ve been given a gift of greater understanding of what waits on the other side. A Loving Embrace because God/Source/Allah/….is welcoming Itself back home. If that is the Consciousness that welcomes us back, what makes you think that It doesn’t do the same for the animals who are likewise, filled with that same Consciousness? 

And if that same Consciousness is in them, it essentially means that ‘harm them, harm Ourself’. How can we do to Ourself then, all the horrors that we do to animals? To not ‘do unto animals as we would have done unto us’…..is to live by a version of Spirituality that is reduced to the meaningless that comes when we only take it up as it’s convenient but disposable on a whim. It’s like the Sunday Christian who is a womanizer or a liar and a cheat during the week then. Or the Muslim or Jew who orders the pepperoni pizza when he or she is alone……

All of the above is why I think that the spiritual seeker who has seen the suffering and responded by deciding to no longer participate in a human created cycle of violence, is like the board game player who draws the golden card that gives him a boost that puts him 10 spaces ahead of where he was when he rolled the dice.
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #9  
Old 26-02-2021, 12:33 AM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
You said ...
Sorry, this goes nowhere, so I hadn't read your reply (too long, and I don't care for arguments).

Just please be careful with your emotions, no matter how justified you think they are.

By the way ... I really love all animals; I respect and appreciate them; I rarely eat meat; my spiritual quest started because my beloved dog passed.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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Old 26-02-2021, 04:30 PM
Lucky 1 Lucky 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah

A deeper compassion arises that forever frees us from the delusion that we can ever benefit from harming or using others. Our veganism is no long “veganism.” It is our true nature spontaneously expressing as inclusiveness and kindness for all living beings. We are simply living naturally, and our greatest joy is contributing to the happiness of others.
******

This is anthropomorphizing at its worst!

Every living thing on this planet is an essential part of the sacred "Circle of Life".

Nothing can live without eating something else that is alive!

That is literally "The Way of life" on this planet and to suggest otherwise is *deleted*!

And humans as an omnivorous hunting species are not just part of that circle of life but are as beholden to it as any other living thing that exists.

We hunt and eat the plants and animals....one day we die and then our bodies literally fertilize the soil that grows the plants that begins the food chain.

That is the way of life on this planet and all the anthropomorphizing in the world does not change that in the slightest.
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Yes I Am a Pirate! 200 years too late....the cannons don't thunder...there's nothing to plunder...I'm an over 40 victim of fate!

Maybe we're all here because we ain't all there????

If you're lucky enough to have been born in TEXAS....you're lucky enough!

Last edited by Miss Hepburn : 26-02-2021 at 10:38 PM. Reason: Rude and opinion
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