Rather removing karma or growing from it?

[Altair]

I voted 'Other'.

Cause and effect is not the same as 'karma'. There was a time where I thought 'karma' made sense. However, the belief in karma is totally different and postulates that there is morality in the universe and in nature. So when a spider eats a bug the two will meet again at some point in a ''future life''. When a human eats a cow the two will have some therapy session in the afterlife. But this is superstition and got nothing to do with science and nature. You and me being 'positive' or 'negative' got no bearing on the universe. It is our sense of right and wrong, our sense of meaning, projected upon nature and the universe. There are consequences to our actions and in society (to varying degrees) and the observable, existing explanations are already sufficient.

[CosmicWonder]

Originally Posted by Altair

I voted 'Other'.

Cause and effect is not the same as 'karma'. There was a time where I thought 'karma' made sense. However, the belief in karma is totally different and postulates that there is morality in the universe and in nature. So when a spider eats a bug the two will meet again at some point in a ''future life''. When a human eats a cow the two will have some therapy session in the afterlife. But this is superstition and got nothing to do with science and nature. You and me being 'positive' or 'negative' got no bearing on the universe. It is our sense of right and wrong, our sense of meaning, projected upon nature and the universe. There are consequences to our actions and in society (to varying degrees) and the observable, existing explanations are already sufficient.

I found this to be true for a “real world” where from chaos comes order, but the order is still chaos.

Lately I find more and more that this universe probably isn’t the top level one. More like simulated. This way, karma in the moral sense could exist. And could even be individualized. I also doubt this idea, but see some kind of order coming back on an individual basis (not a global one, that’s just a mess tbh) that isn’t limited order in the way I would see a “real world”. It’s more like adapted to someone’s lifepath, may it be on individual basis be an fatalistic lifepath or a loose one or another one. If we want to discuss this, we could make another thread. I just say this to point out a difference in perspective or world view that could also consider such an argument, but handling it differently. Thought it could mean something or add something

Kindness.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by realizefun

I found this to be true for a “real world” where from chaos comes order, but the order is still chaos.

Lately I find more and more that this universe probably isn’t the top level one. More like simulated.

I thought this was very insightful as I see the same thing. The universe (probably) isn't the only level. From here we move to another level and that then will be the real world temporally. We have no idea what the real world will be. Most won't change the first time at this level if there is only one level then no change? This is based on the premise in all systems generally talk of growth, change, becoming. The emphasis of all system is what is to done so is what is not. In this way we prepare for the next level which we have no idea what it will be like. I have always felt more chaos in good meaning doing. Karma is the opportunity to do, to experience. I would say keep it with modifications.

[BlueElephant]

Originally Posted by realizefun

Very fascinating...

It is really true. realize fun. nice to meet you and Xan too.

[running]

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

The lessons of our individual karma, in my experience, can be "cleared" and still one will learn the lessons, but learn them in joy and freedom, rather than through pain, sorrow, anger, limitation or frustration.

that's real

Originally Posted by Altair

Cause and effect is not the same as 'karma'. There was a time where I thought 'karma' made sense. However, the belief in karma is totally different and postulates that there is morality in the universe and in nature.

In the original Sanskrit karma meant cause, then sometime later it came to mean cause and effect. At that time it was 'mechanical' and there was no morality involved. Nowadays it's reward/victim mentality, and when Past Lives come into the equation it becomes silliness. The supposed morality comes from kamma-vipaka, which means the results of intention and this is what Spiritual people need to think about. What is the intention behind thinking karma can be removed? Is the intention of using the word 'karma' thinking you (not you personally) are Spiritual or is the intention to gain understanding? The two have very different 'results'. Thinking that you are Spiritual because you use the word 'karma' with the intention to gain status/self esteem may well be right to some but that mentality becomes the basis for their Spirituality. Both Mother Teresa and Lady Diana (amongst others) said that we should do kind acts with no expectation of rewards, and these have the 'best results', very loosely.

Originally Posted by realizefun

I myself have difficulties with energies that I associate with karma. But could be just energies. I don’t think they are mine in the sense that I did so much bad, rather that they are attached to me somehow.

You associate the energies with karma because of your definition of the word, and I'm going to leave that open since you haven't given one. You've said that you did so much bad so I'm guessing for you karma is a morality issue, and now you have a victim mentality in that you are trying to atone for past transgressions - or words to that effect. Really, that doesn't help and all you'll be left with is a self esteem that's taken a good hammering.

Good and bad are judgements, nothing more, and often those judgements are based on a thin veneer of understanding. I'm not going to ask what you did but what I'd suggest you do is forget karma in whatever guise you believe it to be and look at this in a more objective manner. Forget your that your deeds were 'bad' and ask yourself what can you gain from them? Progress can only happen if there is something to progress from. In the context of Life Purpose was all of this agreed to, was the intention there to have the experience of being a 'bad guy' so that you could experience the growth and become a 'good guy'? And if further down the line you meet someone who could benefit from your experiences?

And the most powerful question you can ask yourself in Spirituality - "Did I Love myself enough to give myself this experience?" Right now, do you still Love yourself despite all the 'bad' you think you did?

Sometimes karma pales into insignificance within the 'bigger picture'.

[CosmicWonder]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You associate the energies with karma because of your definition of the word, and I'm going to leave that open since you haven't given one. You've said that you did so much bad so I'm guessing for you karma is a morality issue, and now you have a victim mentality in that you are trying to atone for past transgressions - or words to that effect. Really, that doesn't help and all you'll be left with is a self esteem that's taken a good hammering.

Good and bad are judgements, nothing more, and often those judgements are based on a thin veneer of understanding. I'm not going to ask what you did but what I'd suggest you do is forget karma in whatever guise you believe it to be and look at this in a more objective manner. Forget your that your deeds were 'bad' and ask yourself what can you gain from them? Progress can only happen if there is something to progress from. In the context of Life Purpose was all of this agreed to, was the intention there to have the experience of being a 'bad guy' so that you could experience the growth and become a 'good guy'? And if further down the line you meet someone who could benefit from your experiences?

And the most powerful question you can ask yourself in Spirituality - "Did I Love myself enough to give myself this experience?" Right now, do you still Love yourself despite all the 'bad' you think you did?

Sometimes karma pales into insignificance within the 'bigger picture'.

Hii :) I actually don’t think I did so much bad. I reflected back pretty much. Now I see I did a pretty decent job at life. I did have issues however. But no excessive bad intentions or bad behavior. However, I did see these energies. What I tried to convey is that they made me think they were karma at first, but later on I realized they weren’t since well they are energy and energy is not a governing law in my eyes. But I must admit that my perspectives can change everyday. What I do think is that my life was partially and is partially about facing myself though. And there comes something in play that looks a lot like karma. When I behaved X in the past, then similar to that is Y and that is what I will face.

Kindness.

PS: pretty messy post, but I think it’s supposed to be for now :)

Originally Posted by realizefun

Hii :) I actually don’t think I did so much bad. I reflected back pretty much. Now I see I did a pretty decent job at life. I did have issues however. But no excessive bad intentions or bad behavior. However, I did see these energies. What I tried to convey is that they made me think they were karma at first, but later on I realized they weren’t since well they are energy and energy is not a governing law in my eyes. But I must admit that my perspectives can change everyday. What I do think is that my life was partially and is partially about facing myself though. And there comes something in play that looks a lot like karma. When I behaved X in the past, then similar to that is Y and that is what I will face.

Kindness.

PS: pretty messy post, but I think it’s supposed to be for now :)

Energy is the governing 'law' although it's not actually a law as such, but more specifically the frequency - and you ARE energy, everything is energy. It's frequency that determines what you attract or repel and this can be construed as karma. How you perceive your issues creates your reality, which in turn affects your energies/vibrations. Perceiving them as issues is very telling because you see them as being something wrong with you. So if, for instance, that makes you feel like a 'lesser person' that will affect your energy frequencies and what you will attract is what reinforces that perception. You'll see more of what makes you feel lesser about yourself -

Originally Posted by realizefun

I don’t think they are mine in the sense that I did so much bad, rather that they are attached to me somehow.

I think this is what you're intuitively picking up on.

That X in the past is you punching me on the nose, what karma do you expect? Thing is, we agreed in Spirit that you would do that so I could learn forgiveness and what would be the karma if you welched on your deal and didn't punch me?

We live a linear existence so from our perspective there is a chain of cause and effect, but any perception of morality is what we ourselves have 'added'. If you're going to understand karma at a deeper level then you have to put time into the equation too. In Spirituality there is no time, it's very much a man-made construct. In science, all of time is happening all of the time and all of time affects all of time all of the time. That means causality loops. So the whole thing just becomes very silly very quickly.

Originally Posted by realizefun

I found this to be true for a “real world” where from chaos comes order, but the order is still chaos.

It's called entropy and it comes from the laws of thermodynamics. All ordered systems have entropy, which is a measure of how things descend into chaos.

Originally Posted by realizefun

Lately I find more and more that this universe probably isn’t the top level one. More like simulated.

It depends on your definitions of Universe but you're perceiving something different to the mainstream. And it's not a bad thing, bu the way.

Originally Posted by realizefun

It’s more like adapted to someone’s lifepath, may it be on individual basis be an fatalistic lifepath or a loose one or another one. If we want to discuss this, we could make another thread. I just say this to point out a difference in perspective or world view that could also consider such an argument, but handling it differently. Thought it could mean something or add something

Yes!!!

The energies you associate with karma are the energies that keep you on your Life's Path, some would say it's your Higher Self keeping your nose to the grindstone to ensure you 'get there'. And yes, it would take another thread to discuss in more detail. As I see it, your attention is on karma but at the same time you're intuiting something very different. It seems as though you're trying to fit in larger pieces of a much bigger puzzle together that goes far beyond the 'standard definition' of karma.

Originally Posted by realizefun

What I do think is that my life was partially and is partially about facing myself though.

Not partially. Yes it's obviously about others too because unless you're living on a desert island on your own, you're always interacting with others but then how you perceive your treatment of them is about facing yourself as well. How you behaved is your perceptions and that's what the past really is - not what actually happened but your perceptions of it. You are not dealing with your X behaviour, you're dealing with your current perceptions of your X behaviour. What you are facing is the results of those perceptions. In the present, our perceptions of the past create our futures. What you will face in the future is now up to you.

Forget karma because all that does is take you in the wrong direction. Learn to forgive yourself and learn from your past whatever it was, that's the best future you can give yourself.

[CosmicWonder]

Thank you very much greenslade :)