The false self

Originally Posted by mary isaak

Thank you very much for all the details Greenslade I can understand that distinctions like true/false, positive/negative can be irrelevant.

You're very welcome.

It seems that something was lost in the translation, but what makes sense to me is that the 'selfs' are aspects of self. Where things go a little sideways is in the identifications the Western mind makes, so it can associate with one self - such as the so-called 'Spiritual self' - and dissociate/deny others such as the 'human self. That's not the self at all, that's the individuals' ego.

Originally Posted by mary isaak

I am not sure I got the big picture. From this stand point, is the self realization process a psychological process? Does it mean that everything we experience is the result of programming? Is there an ultimate reality? Thanks

Pretty much most Spiritual people will deny psychological involvement in their Spirituality, the fact is that psychology has been an integral part of Spirituality since the time the early Eastern Spiritual books were written. The ancients know about the mind, the unconscious and their processes as well as any psychologist does today. Jung based his model of the ego on the Sanskrit Ahamkara and his model of the self on the Atman. So anyone who tells you that psychology has no place in Spirituality isn't as Spiritual as they'd like you to believe they are.

'Programming' is the wrong word, it's used by people who think they know but they don't. They seem to think that since they recognise some kind if 'programming' they're suddenly immune to it, but the irony is that's programming. The ancients called it Right Thinking and it's part of the Eightfold Path, so if you really want to be rid of your so-called programming that's certainly worth an explore. If you prefer psychology then look at cognitive behaviour, but it's he same thing.

Common sense will tell you that Spirituality is based on the processing of information, if you are reading books, forums posts and the like, and the brain doesn't rewire itself because some slaps an 'I am Spiritual' on their forehead.

There is no 'ultimate' reality, that's the ego talking. The objective reality is that reality is subjective.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, thoughts either come from the false self, which is mostly created by conditioning/programming, and is finite and limited or thoughts come from oneness, which is not conditioning/programming, and is infinite, unlimited, and all knowing.

All thoughts have the same 'source' regardless and thinking otherwise is so-called 'programming', they come from the Chitta or 'Lower mind' which is the so-called 'programming' and a part of which is either constructive or destructive cognitive behaviour. It's the so-called 'false self' or Ahamkara/ego that makes that distinction and that is a part/aspect of the self/Atman.

In Spiritual parlance thoughts are karas or 'invented things' that the Aham or 'I' is made from.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

All thoughts have the same 'source' regardless and thinking otherwise is so-called 'programming', they come from the Chitta or 'Lower mind' which is the so-called 'programming' and a part of which is either constructive or destructive cognitive behaviour

For the majority of people that is true, however, thoughts one gets from intuition and gut feelings do not come from the lower mind and the visions/images genuine psychics get, which are thoughts, do not come from the lower mind.

Besides, if there is a lower mind/a mind that is not aligned with oneness, then there is a higher mind/ a mind that is aligned with oneness. The purpose of the spiritual teachings that calm/still the mind, is to align one's mind with oneness.

Edit: The lower mind is purely phsychological, and the higher mind is both phsychological and spiritual, and both exists at the same time. What I mean by the higher mind being spiritual, is that the higher mind knows it is oneness, while the lower mind does not know it is oneness, the lower minds views itself to be separate from oneness. This is what the teachings on maya and duality is all about, not the other meanings and thoughts people give them. In order for one to see everything as oneness, one must first know one's higher mind is oneness. You know people do not get oneness, when they say they are not the mind, or that everything is a dream etc etc. And agreeing with them and playing along with thier lower mind is not unconditional love.

The lower mind comes from the physical monkey/animal brain that evolved over time, while the higher mind does not comes from the monkey/animal brain, the higher mind comes from and is oneness. The higher mind is atman. This is not an abstract concept, metaphor or analogy, it is just the way it is.

[mary isaak]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Of course. The Self is always present, here and now, wherever we are, whatever we are doing...

Peace

Thank you very much Iamthat. The idea of -- Self-realisation is possible for "ordinary" people leading "ordinary" lives, here and now-- makes do much sense to me

[mary isaak]

Originally Posted by Legrand

When I was born, I almost never cried. When my parents received friends ....

Thank you very much Antoine, I like this metaphor also.
This kind of changes, is it us who trigger it once we are in the path, or does it come naturally from the external world ? Thanks

Originally Posted by mary isaak

Thank you very much Antoine, I like this metaphor also.
This kind of changes, is it us who trigger it once we are in the path, or does it come naturally from the external world ? Thanks

Hello Mary,

Love your questions.

As our lower thoughts align with the Self within, the same appends to what we see as the outside world and the inside world, they also both align themselves.

At first, those events that bring change, you may see them as synchronicity until they become normal to you.

Antoine

[God-Like]

There is only what you are that is either beyond the thought of itself or there is the thought of oneself as being this or that .

It is true from one perspective that you are this and that and also you are neither this or that, but it depends on the context .

Some might say that the false self proclaims that you are a human being, but that makes no sense to me ..

It only makes sense from beyond the thought of that, and at that point there is no-one present to make sense of that .

x daz x

Originally Posted by MikeS80

For the majority of people that is true, however, thoughts one gets from intuition and gut feelings do not come from the lower mind and the visions/images genuine psychics get, which are thoughts, do not come from the lower mind.

The thoughts that psychics have are the same as 'regular' thoughts, I'm a clairsentient medium. Most psychics read people, so they are very observant of facial and micro-expressions, body language, tone of voice and the like. All of that happens in the lower mind. Some have the ability to sense energies but those are not thought-based. Intuition is not thought-based or has anything to do with either mind but is akin to Gnosis - which is beyond the mind, higher or lower.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Besides, if there is a lower mind/a mind that is not aligned with oneness, then there is a higher mind/ a mind that is aligned with oneness. The purpose of the spiritual teachings that calm/still the mind, is to align one's mind with oneness.

Oneness is a creation of the mind and Brahman is not Oneness, Brahman is everything - which includes separation and individuality.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Edit: The lower mind is purely phsychological, and the higher mind is both phsychological and spiritual, and both exists at the same time. What I mean by the higher mind being spiritual, is that the higher mind knows it is oneness, while the lower mind does not know it is oneness, the lower minds views itself to be separate from oneness. This is what teachings on maya and duality is, not the other **** people say they are.

Spirituality comes from the same area of the brain as schizophrenia and is largely processed by the pre-frontal cortex. This is where the higher mind begins. The lower mind is, if Spirituality is to be believed, also Brahman and it is because of the lower mind that the thoughts/perceptions of us being "Spiritual Beings on a human Journey" are created. Both minds - higher or lower - are a part of the ego/Ahamkara which means differentiated consciousness.

Both minds are psychological but it's the ego/Ahamkara that identifies with Spirituality as being a 'benefit' of some description, as it does with Oneness.

Everything exists in relation to something else, there is no Oneness without separation and there is no higher mind without lower mind.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The lower mind comes from the physical monkey/animal brain that evolved over time, while the higher mind does not comes from the monkey/animal brain, the higher mind comes from and is oneness. The higher mind is atman. This is not an abstract concept, metaphor or analogy, it is just the way it is.

This is your perspective but many would disagree.

The idea that the lower mind comes from the brain is somewhat bizarre. The idea that the higher mind is Atman is equally bizarre - Atman has nothing to do with the mind.

Or perhaps your definitions of lower and higher mind differ from mine.

Peace

[mary isaak]

Thank you very much Greenslade for the detailed information, it is very helpful

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Where things go a little sideways is in the identifications the Western mind makes, so it can associate with one self ...

If I understand correctly there is no such thing as spiritual self that has no connection with the ego.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Pretty much most Spiritual people will deny psychological involvement...

Thank you very much for your guidance. I will look into the Eightfold Path and cognitive behavior, and see which one is easier for me to understand.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The objective reality is that reality is subjective...

This is a very deep statement. It reminds me of the quote "the only constant thing in life is change ". I will think about and try to relate it to my experience.

Thank you so much for your insightful explanation