What are the consecuences of suicide?

[linen53]

Originally Posted by Colorado

Right Linen, thanks for responding...I just wanted to add something I have seen and witnessed directly to mental illness. Ice cream will be the death of me. If I go into a bipolar manic episode(really) look no further than the trash can for 3 boxes of empty ice cream cartons, an empty large milk shake cup, and cone wrappings, a bottle of chocolate syrup, and a tub of whipped cream. ( I know how to do it up) True story. It usualky starts with some kind of celebration when it starts, a birthday party, vacation with relatives, graduation party, etc...and spirals out of control.he proof is in the pudding...Literally. I am careful of what I eat, some days I fall off the wagon....and go into a gluttonous, out of control, manic chocolate crazed eating bipolar ice cream lunatic....it only happens when I eat wrong. I mostly stick to herbs, chicken, greens, and pay d arcovteas, greens, fish, Omegas, B’s, vitamins, and nutrients. No problems, depression or god awful anxiety, insomnia, etc.... as long as I eat clean.

I slmost never eat out, no soda, chips, donuts, cereal, breads, alcohol, sugar, dairy, grease, etc....no gas station foods, pizza, hotdogs, hamburgers or condiments. Boring life? No...I do not suffer from fatigue, depression, hormone, or debilitating anxiety like I use to. If I start feeling unusual stress levels, anger, sadness...I look at what I’ve eaten in the last few days...and combat it with healthy anti fungals, herbs and pay d’ arcovtea...the effects are immediate relief...and to get the he junk out of my system. Diet is the underlying root of how well we function, deal with stress, and how healthy our minds are. Eat clean...can’t stress it enough.

Hi Colorado, I just got introduced to Kevin Hines who is bipolar, via a television segment I watched yesterday. I looked him up and he is my new hero. His message is related to mental illness and suicide but you may find some insight in his message for your own reasons. I sure did. He reminded me I am responsible for my own actions and thoughts. I needed to be reminded of that right now.

Yeah, because of my food allergies I have to leave all that junk food alone. I can't even have it in my house. I wouldn't consider what I can eat as boring. I can have hot dogs, pizza, hamburgers, etc but I have to eat clean, organic meats with no fillers or acid washes, fresh vegetables and prepare everything myself. It's a bit more work, but well worth it.

On the positive side Breyer's Natural Vanilla ice cream has limited ingredients, not all that stuff in it. And Hershey's is making a chocolate syrup now with only 5 ingredients. But that might be to tempting for you to keep around the house.

Starman, lol, you are taking me back a few years.

[Compendium]

I watched a youtube video last night regarding this very subject.

The two people discussing this matter are both psychologist one was the interviewer the other was the interviewee. The interviewee had a brother commit suicide 20 years ago. He delved into the souls life after suicide through a channeler and a machine ( at Monroe college I think it is in Virginia they have computers are some thing that helps the brain reach deep meditative states without being experianced. ) He has been in contact with his brother since death. The first thing he learned is there is only life after death. Depending on cause of death determines how those on the otherside handle you. Example: if you had a traumatic passing and suffered damage to the soul they may put your soul in a form of what we would call a coma while they psychically help you repair the damage. Then if you committed suicide when you watch your life review you also view what you missed out on by killing yourself. This is a summary if you want to watch the Vid i think it was called "The souls life after suicide" by New Knowledge? They have a rainbow yin-yang logo.

Namaste`

[linen53]

I think it's different for every individual when they cross over.

Helen Greaves who wrote several books back in the 1950's? 60's?, I believe, channeled her friend, Frances Banks after she passed. Frances, in real life was a nun. After she passed she worked in a 'hospital' where she tended damaged souls. Some were put in a coma-like state and the staff used various methods to heal them.

[Michelle11]

Originally Posted by Starman

It seems to me that most human beings practice some type of high risk suicidal behavior regularly, even though they may not think of themselves as being suicidal, still they may have a secret, or subconscious, death wish in practicing such behaviors.

The person who commits suicide is not necessarily mentally ill, although they may be temporarily disturbed

Intentions may come on suddenly and a person kills themselves without much thought or that person may ruminate about killing themselves.

So I think what you are saying here is that suicidal ideations, or thoughts of suicide, may be part of a growing process? Suffering can be a great teacher.

You are exactly right. It is only the past 6 years that I realized how self destructive and suicidal I have been my whole life. I never considered myself to be suicidal but I had a lot of the signs, I just did a really good job ignoring it. I do not have a mental illness and perceive my depression is more of a cognitive issue than a biological one. I was happy as a child but homesick even when I was at home. That was my first sign. As a teen I became moody but never contemplated suicide. I did, however, secretly wish for death by divine intervention. There were many doomsday prophecies going on at the time and I wished one would happen and end all my troubles. When I hit my late teens is when the sudden out of the blue urges to suicide even at times when I was having fun started to happen. I was worried about being stigmatized and uninsurable and unhirable so I just ignored those red flags. I knew there was something dark bothering me but I was too afraid to confront it, I felt I needed to run for my life from it and so it was easy to pretend I was OK. For the most part I was. I was high functioning considering the amount of anxiety, fear and dark feelings I had going on.

In my early 20s is when my behavior got reckless. It is a wonder I made it through that decade but I do think my soul saw fit to give me a body that doesn’t handle controlled substances well because they made me very sick so I could never intake enough to really do me in. I then managed to make a life for myself and thought I had gotten a handle on all of it until a life event in middle age sent me into outright suicidal ideations. It was a harrowing few years but a part of me always knew, despite every fiber of my being wanting to commit suicide, I knew in my heart I could not do it because it wouldn’t fix anything. It made the feelings worse, like not being able to scratch an unbearably painful itch that you desperately need to scratch but I feel it clarifies that I have done it in a past life in an attempt and that I now know it isn’t the answer. So when I hear of someone who goes through with it I understand that they very well don’t have that information yet. They don’t have the ‘Knowing’ that it won’t fix things. So yes, I do think that it is a misguided solution brought on by a person not knowing what else to do to help themselves feel better. At least in the case of those with cognitive depression. Obviously those who are terminally ill or believe it is the righteous thing to do for their religion have other agendas but in some ways I think that they as well will see that it isn’t the answer or a noble thing to do.

Often what we call a problem is not the problem; often the problem is our perception of the situation and not the situation itself. I do not believe that our deeper being is damaged by us taking our life, although our perception may be skewed. But it is interesting that one often takes their life to escape a situation, not knowing what they are escaping to. There is a perception that death will automatically bring a relief from what they are trying to escape, but thinking the problem/issue is the location ignores that the issue may be more internal than that. The feeling which one probably seeks in taking their life may be similar to the comfort of returning to the womb, a carefree state.

I like what you said here because I am not sure suicidal people ever think in those terms. We really don’t have a clue what we are escaping to. We just want out of the pain that seems to never end. But I have often heard of people who have tried having instant regret. I do suspect that we are met with love but that initially there is great disappointment in ourselves and then also possibly the knowing that we have to go through it all again becomes clear and something we instantly dread.

In any event, I have had a lovely life by most standards. I had an authoritarian father but most were in my time. He seemed angry a lot but he was never mean, cruel or physically abusive yet I struggled with my self view that eventually turned into outright self rejection because I never addressed it. I see my path to near suicide in the same way. I never addressed the issue early on and it grew into a monster that wanted to annihilate me. I don’t know the answer but I know the stigma attached with depression at the time was very damaging and caused me to hide my pain, which unaddressed turned on me. I am glad to see it is more acceptable to be open about it because I suspect most suicidal people aren’t suicidal on purpose they just have no clue how to fix the pain and have this impulse driving them that is quite frankly, extremely hard to resist. It feels like you Need to do it is the best way I can describe. Resisting the impulse takes a lot of willpower. When you are at a place of lost hope willpower is not all that high. In any event, I think if there was more acceptance when I was younger I may have avoided the decent into darkness in middle age. I feel proud now that I have survived myself and I feel liberated from having to run from the dark feelings but it has been a struggle my whole life. Hopefully things are turning around in regards to mental health issues and people will get help sooner before it reaches a crisis point and the impulses and/or dark feelings are stronger than they can handle.

[linen53]

Michelle and Starman, I really thought I was the only one who dabbled in dangerous behaviors, ignoring illnesses and engaging in bad habits. Death wish? I've thought that at times. I really am not ready to leave yet. But there is that instinct to attempt to want to go Home. Kind of like a "whoops!" attitude.

[Michelle11]

Originally Posted by linen53

Michelle and Starman, I really thought I was the only one who dabbled in dangerous behaviors, ignoring illnesses and engaging in bad habits. Death wish? I've thought that at times. I really am not ready to leave yet. But there is that instinct to attempt to want to go Home. Kind of like a "whoops!" attitude.

I do honestly think I was possibly more of a danger to myself when I was in fierce denial trying to be OK when I wasn't. All the signs were there but I chose to not look and so I had limited awareness. But the avoidance came with an energy where I was running like mad from myself and probably is what attributed to the reckless behavior. I had to become aware there was a problem, be blatantly honest regardless what I felt anyone would think about it and admit this is what i have to deal with, like it or not. I didn't ask to feel suicidal, I didn't want to feel like death but it was the truth of how I felt and it was only by opening up to that truth that I started to heal. But I am amazed looking back, how I was so good at fooling myself, it stands to reason I have also been good at fooling others. And if I can hide it so well that stands to reason there are many others out there who are turning a blind eye as well. Probably more than anyone realizes. It's tough being human.

[_dagmar_]

Too bad suicide has such a negative connotation.

The first response when someone says to commit suicide is often: Don't, you can get over it ! Like or there is some kind of mental illness going on or there is a good reason not to. Like life can be so beautiful, suggesting the person in question should "fight" because it can be and at this moment is just a bit lost and death is less beautiful per definition.

"fight", the idea that one needs to fight, in this case thoughts that would lead to suicide. Thoughts that are considered negative, because suicide is a negative thing that should be prevented at all times because life is beautiful. Not seeing this is then considered weak. Suicide considered giving up.

Some want to die in dignity. Some cannot take the pressure society puts on them.
There are many factors that affect the suicidal person.

Suicide is the end of great suffering.

[Starman]

Michelle11, that is quite a riveting story which you have shared; thank you for bringing that to light and maybe others by reading it can come to light as well, as Linen53 has mentioned. I can definitely relate to it myself as well. I never thought of myself as having high risk dangerous behavior but I did realize that I was continually making myself a target of close calls that could do me a lot of damage, and I did not feel like I was consciously doing this, but maybe it was a subconscious death wish.

I had low self-esteem, and after coming back to the U.S. from Vietnam, at the tender age of twenty, I did not know whether to be proud of my military service or to be ashamed of it. Basically, I hated myself, and while I did not want to outright commit suicide I did constantly put myself in situations that where dangerously damaging. It was almost as if I wanted to punish myself because I did not like me. This was reinforced by others here in the U.S. who spit on us returning Vietnam veterans, called us “baby-killers," and “war mongers,” etc. An even though I was a combat medic in Vietnam, went into villages and medically treated people regardless of their nationality or politics, delivered babies, bound wounds and helped to save lives, etc., I was still ostracized upon my return home to the U.S. I have shared here at SF many times how I lost my eyesight in Vietnam and was blind for about 5-years, went though more than a dozen eye surgeries over that period to regain my eyesight. I had a Christian minister tell me that my loss of eyesight was God punishing me for my sins. There was little to no sympathy for my situation and that added to my low self-esteem.

This was very hard on me, and it was also one of the reasons Vietnam veterans in general stayed sicker longer. The VA nor the civilian counseling community did not recognize PTSD back then as a mental illness. So lots of veterans turned to self medicating with street drugs. Lots of veterans committed suicide because of a lack of treatment, ignored by the professional counseling community, and also being outcast by society. I am glad to see today that veterans are being taught yoga and quiet meditation by the VA to deal with PTSD and for the most part it is working. Suicide rates among veterans have dramatically decreased due to this. Fortunately for me I learned how to meditate and quiet my mind back in the late 1970’s; a guru from India taught me, and without that tool who knows what path I might have taken. PTSD today is acknowledged in non-military veterans, victims of sexual abuse, first responders, etc., but it was Vietnam veterans who fought very hard, and won, to get PTSD recognized as a legitimate mental illness by the professional counseling community.

I felt evil, I felt I was evil; it was not cognitive, it was not a label that I embraced, rather it was a strong feeling that engulfed me. I was filled with rage at the universe, and it had no rhyme or reason. A feeling that I struggled with and I really did not like myself. I had to get to a place where I liked myself, I had to fall in love with myself. Quiet meditation and my spiritual practice helped me to do that. A transformation process of changing my vibration from this icky feeling of self-loathing to a peaceful and loving feeling that permeated by entire being. Surrounding myself with positive, loving, and compassionate people helped. However, for a long time I hid in marijuana and other drugs. Speaking only for myself, that only carried me so far and I had to find a more natural, non-substance induced, way of transforming my vibration. I think the Great Work of Humanity is Self Transformation. Today I am a process in progress and have come a long way from where I was, with greater, more positive, transformations going on within me all the while.

Talking about death and suicide was a taboo subject for a very long tine in the U.S. People just did not discuss it. When my grandmother died I was a little kid and was not allowed to attend the funeral because in my family back then children did not attend funerals. Rather children were told fairy tales about death, and otherwise “protected” from the reality of death, in all its’ forms, including suicide. People move from one place to another trying to get away from something, often not realizing that, that something they are trying to get away from is within them, and they have to work at eradicating what they are trying to escape right where they are at regardless of their situation. Yes, often a change in environment does help but also often, we find whatever conditioning we had over there came with us over here, or vice versa.

Peace and Good Journey

Originally Posted by Starman

Only if predetermination is the paradigm that one embraces, and every spiritual practice does not embrace predetermination. I started a thread on this topic and already a couple of people have alternative points of view, and I am fine with that because I am not posting here to convert others to my point of view. I believe that there is infinite diversity in creation and beyond, and just because I see things one way does not mean that my way is the only way.

The argument against predetermination involves taking responsibility for our own actions, or as many believe "free-will" determines things. I posted what I did in reference to me having seen so many people die in so many different ways. In combat I saw guys shot with high caliber bullets many times, piercing vital organs and they lived, while some other guys were hit by a small piece of shrap mental and died. A guy was leaning againt a long thick plank of wood and a bullet traveled through three planks of that long thick wood, struck the guy and killed him. I have seen people die in the freakiest of ways while others lived after going through the same thing.

My conclusions are just my beliefs, which I try not to impose on others, and my beliefs are not fixed nor static. We do not see life as it is rather we see life as we are, according to our conditioning and how we filter our experiences. Hopefully, we are all evolving and evolution has a way of changing our point of view. Those who commit suicide often have a fixed, unwavering, point of view.

The Sufis have a saying - "All beliefs go to God, but a belief in God is the strongest."


I believe in predetermination because I'd like to think that there is some kind of rhyme and reason for all of this, otherwise what's the point? Is Spiritual development nothing more than a series of serendipitous happenchance? Predetermination also means taking responsibility for what happens in my Life because my Free Will was exercised as Spirit, and that frees me from the victim mentality. Things don't happen TO me they happen BECAUSE of me. It wasn't pure luck that my suicide attempt didn't happen.



The curious thing about Spirituality is that it's based on mentality.

[Michelle11]

Originally Posted by Starman

I felt evil, I felt I was evil; it was not cognitive, it was not a label that I embraced, rather it was a strong feeling that engulfed me. I was filled with rage at the universe, and it had no rhyme or reason. A feeling that I struggled with and I really did not like myself. I had to get to a place where I liked myself, I had to fall in love with myself. Quiet meditation and my spiritual practice helped me to do that. A transformation process of changing my vibration from this icky feeling of self-loathing to a peaceful and loving feeling that permeated by entire being. Surrounding myself with positive, loving, and compassionate people helped. However, for a long time I hid in marijuana and other drugs. Speaking only for myself, that only carried me so far and I had to find a more natural, non-substance induced, way of transforming my vibration. I think the Great Work of Humanity is Self Transformation. Today I am a process in progress and have come a long way from where I was, with greater, more positive, transformations going on within me all the while.

Can I ask you to explain more what you mean by your perception that it wasn’t cognitive? My perception of myself is that I picked up some cognitive misunderstandings from my father criticizing all the time and his use of anger to get his point across as the solution to anything wrong with me. My perception is that is how I developed a poor cognitive perception of myself and thought using anger at myself was how to fix it. Unaddressed it devolved into complete self rejection and a self loathing that labelled me as evil and a danger to society. I had extreme rage inside and felt that is what made me evil and a danger. I had no basis for that actually being true. I have never done any heinous acts or anything so horrible as to be perceived as an evil person but that was my subconscious self view. What made it worse was not having a real clear cut source. There really was no basis for the level of rage inside. It didn’t make sense. Yes, my father was hard on me and looked at the negative side of life more than the positive but I wasn’t abused, I wasn’t treated as though I was evil. So to me I felt that something had to be wrong or faulty with me. It seemed to come out of nowhere. At least initially I mistakenly thought it did.

You had a clearly traumatic experience being in a warzone. As well you had a very misguided country that turned on you because of a lack of perception and group mentality. I think in many ways, we both took what happened to us, how people treated us personal as though what other humans say and do defines our worth. To me that is cognitive in nature because we are using our rational brain to define ourselves in a negative light. It isn’t truth but our brain perceives it as so. A shift in our perceptions of ourselves away from other human’s opinions and from being human in general can help tremendously at healing the need to do ourselves in. So I’d be interested to hear your perspective on why you think it isn’t cognitive. I’m not saying you are wrong. Actually the opposite. I like to hear varying points of view because that is how I learned about myself and see things I wasn’t seeing before.

In the end, I think in my case, I was born a sensitive person, someone prone to stronger than normal emotions. I suspect that my father appearing to be angry a lot made me feel like my life was threatened. Even though I was just being extra sensitive he seemed hostile to my sensitive nature. It caused me to fall into a state of constant anxiety worried about upsetting him. The state of being in constant anxiety molded my brain into a kind of permanent state of flight or flight. Everyone and everything turned into a threat to me. I tried to push through all that fear as best I could and I did ok. But the constant criticism undermined my self confidence and so self doubt and a perception that everything thing I did was wrong caused me to basically want to sit life out. If I can’t get it right it’s best to sit in a corner and try and not be noticed. Trying to suppress my fear and lack of confidence led to depression and wanting to escape life, which as I said, unaddressed eventually built up into out right self rejection and a desire to do myself in. As a young person I did not see the path clearly. I just felt bad and felt I had no reason to feel bad. But there was definitely a dotted line to how I got from feeling homesick as a child to the misunderstanding that I was somehow evil and needed to be destroyed. Ultimately it was my rational brain trying to sort out how to avoid the threats I felt were everywhere. Even though I was never in any physical danger our fight or flight response can get triggered simply from feeling emotional threats. So that is why I see my path as cognitive in nature and not biological or a product of mental illness. I developed mental instability and became disturbed as you said, but because of making assumptions about myself and life that were wrong. Basically disturbed is a very good word to describe how I was handling life. Unhinged and disturbed by it. But I think it all started from cognitive misunderstandings I picked up as a child that got embedded into my subconscious self view and how I perceived the world. But I would love to hear your take on it. Your story seems a lot more riveting than mine.

In any event, one of the reasons I have changed my mind about the idea that if we suicide we have a harder, worse life the next one is because my life by all accounts was pretty normal. No real abuse, just a lack of any positive reinforcement and not being taught good coping skills. As well being mistakenly being led to believe anger was the solution to all problems. My suspicion is that I had rougher lives in the past and could not stop myself from suicide. I had a few dreams that seem to indicate a few much more difficult lives. So to give myself a fighting chance I took on a less traumatizing life. In a sense I was traumatized enough because of my sensitivity to strong emotions. I didn’t need more motivation than a typical authoritarian father who had a loud bark. It was motivation enough to send me into the challenge of surviving myself and coming back from a state of self loathing. I'm glad we are moving past it. I definitely feel lighter than I have for most of my life.