The Symbolic Realm of Culture and Religion

[Gem]

I have to explain something before I begin speaking of culture and religion. Its difficult to explain, but it's basically about how the symbolic is formed by both the imagination and reality.

Lets start with the Tao paradigm where light/dark good/evil pleasure/pain predispose or inter-define each other. I.e. 'you can't have one without the other.'

There's the imaginary, which is like a story that can imagine a world where there's only good. The story sounds like 'good will triumph over evil', and through imagining a conflict where good will annihilate bad there's a delusion entirely detached from reality.

Symbolic is like if you imagine an up, you consequently have a down, so when they say 'anything's possible' that's true, but the consequence is inevitable. This inevitability of up requiring down is where the symbolic bridges the imaginary with the real.

The real itself is like, it's incorrect to think of reality as that is imagining the real. We simply acknowledge it because you think of an up you necessitate a down.

This basically means, the real itself is indistinguishable and can't even be thought of, the imaginary is delusional, and because the symbolic takes the imagined up with the inevitable down, it is imaginary but 'faces reality' - 'facing reality', as it were, is what gives a symbol meaning. Thus, all meaning is symbolic.

I hope that explains the thing, because understanding the a symbol isn't only an imaginary fancy, but also accepting of reality, is what makes a symbol meaningful.

The 'half imaginary/half real' meaningful nature of symbols is the foundation of culture and religion. I might come back another time to continue.

[Deepsoul]

Interesting. Although for me if the focus is Love light and Goodness I am not denying the other just choosing to create in that realm, whilst knowing that I have this power in Christ makes for a life that is hopeful ,loving and peaceful. Yes as you say there is an awareness of the up and down and its about being at peace with that but knowing that the down can always be transformed is a blessing.

[Deepsoul]

Yes I just read your post again like the yin yang symbol ,but is it imaginary to believe in perfection ,although reality shows imperfection, and yet when we combine the two in love we see that imperfection is actually perfection ,because it is viewed in love, is this just imagination or a divine design to come to a point in perception and spiritual awareness that it is all good. Seeing everything worthy to be transformed. And as said there would be no up without the down. But to finish also its not just transformation every time but also a humble acceptance .

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Deepsoul

Yes I just read your post again like the yin yang symbol ,but is it imaginary to believe in perfection ,although reality shows imperfection, and yet when we combine the two in love we see that imperfection is actually perfection ,because it is viewed in love, is this just imagination or a divine design to come to a point in perception and spiritual awareness that it is all good. Seeing everything worthy to be transformed. And as said there would be no up without the down. But to finish also its not just transformation every time but also a humble acceptance .

In fairness, one doesn't love up and hate down. We're basically indifferent to what is up and what is down. We don't glorify these with spiritual embellishment. We don't even accept them nor even reject them, and I would argue that in order to accept there is necessarily the acknowledgement of rejection or avoidance. In real live there are those things which are avoided and other things that are accepted. Pure acceptance is the imaginary, and we call sorts these imaginary 'perfections' ideals. Ideals represent 'what we think we really want'. I saw a good video on this subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0LGi7js8g

[Gem]

The OP tries to express how the symbolic merges the imaginary and the real to bring about meaning. That being said, all facets of culture meaningful symbols. It's entirely imaginary, but given meaning as it applies to the social environment. In the case of religions, there are many, and each is marked with its own symbol:



(image from, http://liveinchapelperilous.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/every-man-and-woman-is-star.html)

These symbols don't have inherent meaning.The meanings are learned and the symbols go on to become powerful social emblems.

Look at symbols within the Christian Church. I see those cars with the fish symbol on them and I know, a Christian owns that car. That symbol is used to declare 'this is who I am' and let others know. People wear a crucifix necklace and I know what that conveys. I also know that I am not that. There is that inevitable split.

Coexist is an imaginary. It can't happen in reality, because these symbols of culture and religion declare 'who we are' as opposed to 'who we are not' by the very function of their meaning, just as up is meaningful because it is not down.

[Deepsoul]

Mmm interesting I recently stopped wearing my cross as i didnt feel I needed to express to the outer world my inner devotion, I love Jesus because he challenges me I

have a strong selfish streak born of hurt and privelage, the return of his JOY, Jesus ,others and myself is high self esteem ,deep compassion and understanding, and a

coherent feeling of wellbeing and an undeniable portal to God. Its all about going deeper and deeper and there are so many ways to access that ....Horray for the Love

in God. Thankyou for the coexist symbol ,uniting as one in love is what its really all about, Yes these things exist they are born from a higher spiritual plane bringing

people focus hope and drive and when its of God LOVE and it produces progress,positivity and Peace there becomes a reality supported by a foundation of the great awesome

unknown....some call it God....

[Deepsoul]

Not only symbols , but ritual, chanting, worship and faith all are links to the Divine.....

I love to chant Hari Krishna,it can open and connect my crown chakra as much as a mystical connection with Jesus.....

American Indian chanting is the ultimate in balancing and accepting high and low ,up and down as ones tone rises and falls .......and then finds a middle way

Chi-gong and the movement of Chi ,divine life within us flows ,gathering heavenly Chi and grounding one on earth.......

Mother Earth and animal wisdom the list is endless........Also and not negating self love either

I have a deep love of God ,The creator and am very Thankful for all the wisdoms of the ages each one offering connection support and spiritual growth....Amen

[Gem]

Today I attended a forum where social workers formed a panel and spoke in turn of their work and the dilemmas that they face on the Job. The first was a Jewish woman worked in palliative care. She made one comment how people living in the area were culturally diverse, but the care unit has a crucifix over the entrance door and crucifixes are hung on the walls in every room. It's a government hospital palliative care unit, where they say there's separation of Church and state, but the care institutions obviously taint their services with a Christian flavour. The presenter also said that even though the area was culturally diverse, their clientele are pretty much all white people from Christian backgrounds. There were no Muslims or Mid-eastern people receiving care even though a mosque is directly across the street.

The second presenter worked in a wellbeing centre that mainly focuses on counselling services. Her first Powerpoint slide showed the organisation's emblem, which included a crucifix. Fair to say her organisation was a christian charity and that emblem is perhaps appropriate, but to me, such a symbol as the crucifix conveys to the client 'this is who we are and Christianity guides out values', it also represents their market group and says 'this is the kind of client that we want'. Naturally, another culture such a Jew or a Muslim would not feel a part of organisations which impose their own cultural paradigm; a paradigm which does not realistically reflect the multiculturalism in their communities, and clients who are not white Christians get a pretty clear message, 'you are not like us'.

Even for me, a person with no religious identity who displays no icons or symbols at all: I would not feel a part of 'their' clearly religious message, albeit it subtly and wordlessly delivered within the social symbolic itself.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Deepsoul

Mmm interesting I recently stopped wearing my cross as i didnt feel I needed to express to the outer world my inner devotion, I love Jesus because he challenges me I

have a strong selfish streak born of hurt and privelage, the return of his JOY, Jesus ,others and myself is high self esteem ,deep compassion and understanding, and a

coherent feeling of wellbeing and an undeniable portal to God. Its all about going deeper and deeper and there are so many ways to access that ....Horray for the Love

in God. Thankyou for the coexist symbol ,uniting as one in love is what its really all about, Yes these things exist they are born from a higher spiritual plane bringing

people focus hope and drive and when its of God LOVE and it produces progress,positivity and Peace there becomes a reality supported by a foundation of the great awesome

unknown....some call it God....

I claim that coexist is completely imaginary and fails to realise that the symbols themselves are used the differentiate and disparage between groups that are represented by them. For example, A Christian is not a Jew who is not a Muslim. Of course, these are all human beings prior to becoming symbolically defined identities.

In actual experience a person isn't religious as a fixture. There are periods during the day when the icons and rituals don't occur to their minds at all. At such times, is a person still a Christian - or do they cease being a Christian for that period and resume the identity when 'christian identifiable thoughts' again return to conscious awareness?

The worn crucifix is used perhaps to remind the person each time they see it 'I'm a Christian', which remembered fleetingly, is then forgotten again. The rituals such as grace, mass, prayers at night are the learned traditions that are repeated and habitualised as a constant reminder 'I am a Christian'. 'This is what I do because I'm a Christian', the ceremonial dress of the priesthood the iconic figure of Christ, the crucific and the fish; along with customary words that are repeated, such as 'amen' for example, continually reaffirm the Christian identity - and if such thoughts did not occur to the person at all, what defines a Christian?

These symbols, rituals, traditions and peculiarities of language are the entire structure of belief, and culture and religion is the act of reaffirming and maintaining these symbols.

[Deepsoul]

Dear Gem,I understand what you are saying ,its like say an indigenous community or any culture for that fact will have created there own way of connecting with the divine. Its an obvious requirement of the spirit for life on earth for many of us. It seems perhaps maybe I dont know but you may have a particular dislike of christianity for personal reasons. To me and many others the cross symbol stands for love and hope and peace, which is what Jesus taught, and is not exclusive but inclusive by this.

When I say I am born of hurt and privilege without dragging up my past ,I mean that my upbringing was spiritually empty and with abuse although there was a type of love there and the privilege comes from being in a western country with all of its material wealth.

I have suffered from this as much as anyone and there are many of us ,I was atheist for many years and while I always tried to do the best I could I just didnt have enough structure or support ,as I was surviving and living a life of a lost little girl ,this can not be sustained and eventually life as I knew it fell apart, my hubby also from chronic abuse and a self abusing alcoholic and drug user as well as abusing me cause thats I guess all I knew,Look we had some good stable times but you would not believe half of my experiences only to say they were soul destroying over a 20yr period. Jesus has and continues to save my life and my husbands and childrens, we now live a drug and alcohol free life and he is at Uni, me Im still in spiritual recovery our children dont have to endure the horrors of broken selfish parents any more ,although they were never directly hurt they saw and experienced way too much.

The good old Aussie culture of have another beer shell be right mate is gone from our minds and replaced with effort that is reinforced and supported through the teachings and spirit of Jesus ,so fishes on cars you see may you know that some people have come a long way and have found sanctuary. My neighbour who is in housing drinks smokes and yells and swears at her poor defenceless children mercessly ,But how can I judge she obviously is stuck in a pattern of abuse ,But I do pray for her and her kids that she will one day find what she needs for happiness for us its been Jesus and I thank God for Him and his way everyday .Amen