Invitation to question my view

Nice to meet you all again. This is my view about Brahman.

Brahman, is capable of disorder,thoughts,nature,pleasure-sufferings,subject-object,knowledge,ignorance, Duality. If Brahman, in absolute sense, has not the capability of these, these might not have been experienced in relative sense.

Greenslade may question that, saying Absolute and Relative is itself Duality which Viswa might have to look into. But, it's not so.

Duality means, Experience. Experience can happen only in Duality. In absolute sense (Non-duality), no experience happens, as Nature/Prakriti (5 sheaths from Annamaya to Anandamaya, 3 gunas) is in Unmanifested state. Unmanifested means, Nature is present but it is subtle and not experienced.

I go with Vedanta, and not Advaita Vedanta, as Advaita gives reason for Relativity as "Ignorance". When questions raised how come the Ignorance/Tamasic Guna dominate if Absolute is Absolute Always (Ignorance cannot happen if Brahman is Totally Consicous/Aware in Absolute sense) - it has not proper answer for that. Thought Ignorance is the cause, it is the second cause after the Causal Body, only after Atman sheds it's light upon Nature/3 gunas, Tamasic Dominates and Ignorance happens, but what is the cause for Atman shedding it's light upon Nature if Atman in itself is Pure Consciousness/Knowledgeable/Awareness, Advaita has no Answer - as they assume Atman/Brahman as Consciousness/Pure Knowledge/Awareness. The Causal Body is Sat-Chit-Ananda (Saguna Brahman, only Advaitins call Brahman in Absolute sense as Sat-Chit-Ananda, but not me, I call it only in Relative sense), which is the cause for Ignorance. Sat-Chit-Ananda is the cause for Ignorance, but how come Sat-Chit-Ananda arise in limitations to Time (in relative sense)?

So, how come there happens this relative sense (Manifested Nature), i.e. Experience happens? Why the Absolute (Experience-less) is prone to relativity? How Nirguna Brahman, comes to bound to Time/relativity even before "Ignorance- a domination of Tamasic Guna"?

No answer. No one can grasp the reason behind for the CAUSAL body (how/why absolute changed into relative and there is a desire for experience), as Intelligence and thought and Bliss and Consciousness and everything happens to come only after the time came/start to be. Religions and many schools says different answers for the 'how and why' questions according to their own view/knowledge/experience, but in truth, no accurate answer. And so, it is called Maya (A Power which cannot be really understood but only can remain unattached with the need of that power and reach that Absolute - Non-Experience State). When first Relative happens, there happens to be Atman seated in this Pond/Heart and start to feel conscious of everything, and so Bible and many starts with "In the Beginning", no one cannot know what happened before the Beginning for the Beginning of Time come into Existence. And so I feel, Buddha never tried to go back to the past to find 'how/why', but only on the now, to cut off all desires.

Every Knowledge known and Experience felt are bound to Duality, whatever form-less and form-full it might be, whatever ignorant and knowledgeable it might be, whatever delusion or Enlightenment experience it might be, all the experience and Knowledge happens only within this Pond/Consciousness.

Can we call Brahman in Absolute sense as Consciousness?
Nope. Consciousness, is not a Noun but a place/Ground. Consciousness is not a living entity. Only Water/Atman is THE ONLY living entity and not the Pond/Waves. The Living entity - Atman, seated in the cave/heart/Consciousness, and witness all the actions of waves and never acts.

Pond and Waves, are not living entity. A Pond (Consciousness), is a place for 5 sheaths to Manifest and Experience, a place for the waves to play. Consciousness is also bound to Time. A slight difference here is, Waves can arise only in a Pond (Consciousness) but not the Ocean (Absolute or Infinite or Brahman).

All the actions of waves (made up of five elements and sense organs and locomotary organs and mind and Intellect) are bound to 3 gunas. Even the action of an Enlightened/Liberated (including GOD - Brahma/Vishnu/Rudra or Sakthi or Jesus or etc.,), is bound to the 3 gunas where one dominates in every action, and for enlightened beings - the Sattvic Guna dominates to set a role model for the Rajasic and Tamasic People and never have a desire for Sattvic Actions too. Even Plants have life, and killing plants or plucking fruits is injuring living being, so Sattvic people also have to injure for eating/living. Many organisms are killed by waking/breathing, so unconsciously killing happens in Sattvic domination too. Every action, there is a killing/injuring (consciously or unconsciously), but being a Sattvic is less injuring compared to other gunas. Only when one is actionless, then no domination of 3 gunas happens, but in every movement/actions - these 3 dominate one upon another.

Can Brahman can be known in Absolute sense? Nope. Only in Relative sense, as Formless Sat-chit-Ananda, as Nothingness, can it be known, but not in Absolute sense, as it is Infinite. Infinity cannot be actually experience, and only parts/finites of Infinity can be experienced. Brahman (in absolute - infinite sense - beyond time) remains unknown, Always.....

So, is all the above view necessary for Enlightenment? Absolutely not. Is there a need to understand "Who am I?" for Enlightenment/etc., more than intellectual? Absolutely not.

When one desires for these experience/knowledge of 5 sheaths, it will go on. When one sees the limitations and conditions of these, and step aside from desire for anything, in time one reaches the Enlightenment (where no Karma/attachment adds up to any actions), and when time comes to an end, one reaches the absolute.

It's all unto one. One is always free to decide what they really need/want in life/after death. But, in all the experience of 5 sheaths, including Bliss, has it's own limitations to time (either psychological or physical). Even though Bliss is bound to Time, it can be used as a Boat in this stream, as it will end only when time ends, and until that it happens to remain unlike Intellect/Mind/Physical objects. Bliss, is the real/true happiness in this relativity, and not the pleasure from Knowledge or thoughts or sensual objects.

So, Bliss is the highest experience one can get in relativity/duality, and it is available for everyone, including Putin/Hitler/Satan. No Bars for anyone, like everyone goes to sleep, irrespective of the actions they do in waking and dreaming states.

It's all Attachment and Desire. One has to decide what they really upto, either to experience 5 sheaths or nothing they really want. If one desires for any experience in any of this 5 sheaths, Bliss included, one is sure bound to duality. If one desires for nothing, and ready to face whatever happens (say a thief comes and stoles everything he has, or a psychotic/inhumane person kills his parents/wife/son/friends/people/animals/etc.,), then that is true renunciation but not the physical renounce. One has to ask themselves whether they are ready to be alone (in a desert or city or etc.,) all life long, ready to be in a crowd full of Humane and Inhumane people, ready to be in a Satanic place, ready to face death - if someone kills or an animal attacks or nature destroys, ready to leave everything one accumulated/nearby and ready to face whatever happens in life? If not, what I'm feared of, because everything is Brahman.

Without these attachments/desires to 5 sheaths subsides, no enlightenment occurs, whatever methods/songs/meditation/action-less been or however sufferings felt. Senses/thoughts tries magically to impress the Intellect. But, the Intellect has to be very sharp of all the limitations of them and itself, and the view of that sharp intellect, is the view of the Fearless lion - which the Elephants obey and subsides. Then, Bliss is Felt, arising from the right heart and spreading all over the body and beyond in this tremendous silence of Mind, the heart is where the Atman rests and remains action-less and be the witness of all the actions of Intellect-Mind-Body.

Note - I might have posted this in "My Space", but I welcome questions to many non-dual persons here, so that I might learn a different view. The all above is my own view, but I'm open to learn too if the questions are reasonable, and I also give a warning that, I might question the other person's own views too, and so please, one who wants to be safe in their views/knowledge, please give a note that "Don't question it", so that I might read your views and inquire for myself and never reply with any question about your views.
All Others, let's inquire like philosophers say, let's debate like Buddhists did, let's argue like Shankara did. Let's DANCE.

[HITESH SHAH]

Keeping in mind that the forum is to improve our common world views and not engage in ego bashing , I try to keep it simple and short .

The views of Advaita / spirituality are to a greater extent diametrically opposite for many quoted points . Many unquoted points I do agree .

Advaita has been variously expounded by Shankaracharya (Kevaladvait --> Only non-duality ) , Vallabhacharya (Shuddhadvait --> Pure non duality) and Ramanujacharya (Vishistadvait --> Unique non-duality ) . And non-duality is the same as one-ness other traditions talk about .Like you there are many in the world who do not know one-ness /non-duality. But that simply does not make it unreal.

Non-duality blissful experience comes in sleep (as a domination of tamasic prakriti) and also in turiya state of meditation . Vedanta believes in Nirguna-Nirakar-Saguna-Sakar Brahman . Accordingly Sat-Chit-anand can be attribute of Saguna-Sakar Brahman.

Originally Posted by Viswa

Duality means, Experience. Experience can happen only in Duality.

I go with Vedanta, and not Advaita Vedanta,

The Causal Body is Sat-Chit-Ananda (Saguna Brahman, only Advaitins call Brahman in Absolute sense as Sat-Chit-Ananda, but not me,

Originally Posted by Viswa

No answer.

Answer is Maya .

Originally Posted by Viswa

Waves can arise only in a Pond (Consciousness) but not the Ocean (Absolute or Infinite or Brahman).

Only when one is actionless, then no domination of 3 gunas happens, but in every movement/actions - these 3 dominate one upon another.

Tamas dominates in passivity.

Originally Posted by Viswa

It's all Attachment and Desire.If one desires for nothing, and ready to face whatever happens (say a thief comes and stoles everything he has, or a psychotic/inhumane person kills his parents/wife/son/friends/people/animals/etc.,), then that is true renunciation

Then, Bliss is Felt, arising from the right heart and spreading all over the body and beyond in this tremendous silence of Mind, the heart is where the Atman rests and remains action-less and be the witness of all the actions of Intellect-Mind-Body.

Desire not to desire also is a desire. Yes renunciation is virtue practiced by greats like Buddha, Jesus , socrates ,Mahavir etc . Still its not the everything/only thing required for spiritual progress . There can be many more attributes to it .

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Keeping in mind that the forum is to improve our common world views and not engage in ego bashing , I try to keep it simple and short .

Desire not to desire also is a desire.

Thank you for expressing your view sir.

I have a different view about many things you said. But, it's okay. Nowadays, I started to welcome every views, so thank you for spending time and replying about it. Yeah, I don't know clearly about Non-duality. I just shared what Upanishads and BG said, which is the base for every schools. If schools and their views are important and not Upanishads, then it's welcome too.

Just a Note, I'm not saying "desire not to desire" but seeing "Desires as Loop or Poison or Magic - a Beautiful Witch with an apple - and distracts one from something DEEP and so BEWARE".

Other than the above, all knowledge I spoke and shared about Vedanta and Maya and etc., is all not important for me now.

For many days, I couldn't understand what Greenslade meant about Non-Duality, so just to clarify it I asked that in another thread. That too, if it is not good to be shared - it's fine again.

All Views (including Vedanta and Upanishads and BG - upon Bliss and Sat-Chit-Ananda and Nirguna and Saguna and nothingness and self and Atman and Sankhya and etc.), all gone unimportant for me now, and I started to welcome all views, if those views are really crucial.

Sorry for sharing those views, which I truly don't know. But, only by all the members questions here (and in Krishnamurti forums), I came to see these.

Please ignore this thread. Or the Admin or Miss Hepburn may delete this thread.

I feel Blessed to met you all in my life.

Take care All.

Do - what one really want to do. Have many Excitements in that doing.

Namaste.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Viswa

I have a different view about many things you said.

That's perfectly ok and u are entitled to your own views and even air your differences publicly on the forum .

Originally Posted by Viswa

Yeah, I don't know clearly about Non-duality. I just shared what Upanishads and BG said, which is the base for every schools. If schools and their views are important and not Upanishads, then it's welcome too.

What Advaita schools says is consistent with BG and Upnishads . You read Sthitpragna darshan in chapter 2 of BG
एषा ब्राह्मी स्थिति: पार्थ नैनां प्राप्य विमुह्यति |
स्थित्वास्यामन्तकालेऽपि ब्रह्मनिर्वाणमृच्छति || 72|
That precisely depicts non-duality status without using the word non-duality.

You read Ishavasyopanishad .
ॐ पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदं पूर्णात् पूर्णमुदच्यते।
पूर्णस्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते॥
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः॥
ॐ ई॒शा वा॒स्य॑मि॒द सर्वं॒ यत्किं च॒ जग॑त्यां॒ जग॑त् ।
तेन॑ त्य॒क्तेन॑ भुञ्जीथा॒ मा गृ॑धः॒ कस्य॑ स्वि॒द्धन॑म् ॥१॥

This too depicts non-duality process without using the word non-duality .

Originally Posted by Viswa

Just a Note, I'm not saying "desire not to desire" but seeing "Desires as Loop or Poison or Magic - a Beautiful Witch with an apple - and distracts one from something DEEP and so BEWARE".

Agreed . This is the perspective of almost all religions . Regulate desires/ improve the quality of desires is the normal guideline almost everywhere.

Originally Posted by Viswa

Do - what one really want to do. Have many Excitements in that doing.

Hope you are able to do what u want and u are having great excitements . Keep it up.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Hope you are able to do what u want and u are having great excitements . Keep it up.

I couldn't find what I want or what to do, in this life/future. Lack of Passion. Poor and Ignorant I am. Full of Tamasic.

Happy that you found what u want. See you.

Namaste.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Viswa

I couldn't find what I want or what to do, in this life/future.

You are very young. Take time to decide what you do but then dedicate yourself to do that with dedication, passion and excellence. And that alone can take you somewhere.

Way to God is not denying /abandoning life but is through life understanding/ appreciating /respecting /following its rules .

Though others may have ample creative freedom in all others do but that's not absolute . Others are also bound by rules and answerable to others .Grass is always greener on the other side .

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Way to God is not denying /abandoning life but is through life understanding/ appreciating /respecting /following its rules .
.

True sir.

But, I don't have the capability to decide.

To live, one needs money. And for earning money - one needs skill. I don't have any. Also, I couldn't fix to one to learn and improve that skill.

I'm not fit to earn money sir. I know I cannot earn sufficient money for satisfying the needs of woman and son/daughter - if I got married.

I know I can earn for food and a simple cloth and a few rent payable for a single 10×10 feet room. It might cost around Rs. 10,000/-pm. Some daily wage or accounting entries or data entries, I may earn it.

But, managing skills and Business and doing profit and satisfying psychological needs of people around me, my mind is fighting tough for indulging on those.

I decided to drop Chartered Accountancy due to this, and conveyed to my parents about this, but convinced them that I will clear Govt. Exams for officer cadre. But, I know I'm not suitable for Officer cadre. I can't harshly speak with clients/suppliers/customers/employees, when they plead for more time. I'm not a scolding character. Also, I am not a motivating character. As I see everything gonna end, my mind couldn't concentrate on motivating/encouraging to work for 'something/someone'. Side-by-side, I'm enrolling for Clerk Jobs, then if I get that job, to silently enter it by convincing my parents that "I will join this as of now and will continue my officer cadre exams". After convincing them, I feel to not prepare those exams well, and smash/destroy all their hopes and desires and expectations they have upon me, inch by inch, and make them say 'okay' to my simple life. Vey Cruel I am. Isn't it?

So, I'm not scolding and not motivating and not profit oriented character. Those three are most important officer and managerial and business skills, but I can't do those. I'm not good at poetry/dance/music/sculpture/painting/any kind of Arts oriented, also the Excitements on seeing those are gone away when I started to feel Bliss. And, I'm not good at Science too, also I started to see those limitations - so no interest come upon those.

So, only Clerk and Data-Typer and Daily Wage, are suitable for me. That is also sufficient for living simple life. But, that's not sufficient for a family to run. Loans have to be availed for satisfying the family needs, but my mind not fixing for buying loans.

So, if a woman, who don't have any desires psychologically, and only have to wakeup-eat-enjoy whatever is -sleep, wakeup-eat-enjoy whatever is-sleep, wakeup-eat-enjoy whatever is-sleep, but that is not happening really in the world. The psychological needs are more for women than men. Maybe those kind of woman can be found only in Ashramas.

So, one who sees unfit for living, then one of the two options is to become sage. Isn't it?

I am also more interested in what is there to be like Sages and Wizards and Monks, instead of bread-winning life. Without a desire for life, one cannot live. That's where rebirth ends.

But, I have another one option. To wait for a Guru/God who knows my situation and guide me or order me to "do this". Then I'm okay to do that for sake of God/Guru, as I have no desire/attachment upon any action/things/people. Nothing I see as Regulated Desires, but only Duty/for godsake (Okay. They say me to do this, let me do that work and at the end of death, reach them and never come back here as I don't have any desire here upon also unfit being here).

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Viswa

I don't have the capability to decide.

Hi ,
There are many things

1. It's a clear law - world or God helps only to those who help themselves (or others still better) . God's descending grace matches the ascending (meaning sincere, genuine , rigorous) efforts on your part . So the solution to all these questions primarily within u only.
2. Canvass of life is so vast that one life is simply insufficient to view/enjoy its all colors .In order to get even some part of it in its full glory one need to accept a dedicated role and be part of it .So everyone (including presidents of powerful countries and billionaire CEOs of MNCs) has to accept a role with its all limits and rules . And accordingly you too have to accept a role for life - a calling which by itself give tremendous satisfaction. Results come naturally in a calling which you enjoy and excel.
3. In order that life gives you gifts from its treasure , you need to leave many things to it and do not need to have rigid pre-conceived notions about it and accordingly should have some hope , trust , confidence in self/others / God that life can and will be far better.
4. It may look the life of Sage/Rishi/Monk/teacher is trouble-free, simple and with more rewards. It's a myth . In fact their life has far more difficult challenges .

While I can write many more things in detail , I think that's beyond the scope of the forum due to space/time limits and primarily its for you to work out .

[movingalways]

How Nirguna Brahman, comes to bound to Time/relativity even before "Ignorance- a domination of Tamasic Guna"?

Hi Viswa, because "before" is relative to "after", there is no "before" in the Absolute (what you call "Nirguna Brahman"). The Absolute is timeless as The Absolute is infinite (omnipresent/present everywhere), is this not so? What this means is that relative (impermanent/finite) forms do not appear in the Absolute at some moment in time, instead, the impermanent relative is the appearance of the permanent Absolute.

Why does the permanent Absolute become attached to Its impermanent, relative appearance? The truth is, there is no absolute answer. However, it's logical to conclude that, within the Absolute, there is a principle or law that causes attachment and nonattachment.

Originally Posted by movingalways

the impermanent relative is the appearance of the permanent Absolute.

Why does the permanent Absolute become attached to Its impermanent, relative appearance? The truth is, there is no absolute answer.

Hi there. Yup. No absolute answer of 'How and Why' (The cause of Causality).

It's pretty simple of this Attachment and Non-Attachment. One is domination of Rajas (Attachment), and another is domination of Sattva (Knowledge).

But, it's okay. You may leave that if it's outdated theories.