Dis-Respectful Non-Vegans - You Don't Belong Here

[Flexi-Girl]

I am not a moderator here. I am not going to tell you, you can't post here but I am allowed to state my opinions.

Over the past several months on this site, there has been an influx of non-vegans posting strong opinions towards vegans and veganism. They come here and arrogantly espouse their anti-vegan sentiment and vegan shaming. They have no intention of learning or understanding other than to argue for why veganism is bad without having done any honest research.

Over time it's become less of a place for sharing and encouraging others in the vegan community, and more of a place for rude loud-mouths to smear and insult a movement we care about

While nobody here is telling you do not have the right to post on the vegan part of the forum, that doesn't mean you're not being a self-entitled disrespectful jerk.

As a 15 year vegan, I don't care about your anti-vegan opinions and your reasons for why you don't like veganism. I have no intention of arguing with you because I know in you're just being contentious. After all it's the trend, to ridicule veganism.

Some of us are vegan for health reasons, but the majority of us are vegans for ethical reasons. I am not the only voice here for veganism, nor am I the voice for the moderators but I am sure I am not alone when I say, "you don't belong here". Please don't post your garbage in our small corner of the forum. To put this in perspective, imagine going to a an anti-racist forum and posting reasons why think racism is good and going out of your way to discredit anti-racists. That's how you appear to us.

If you are non-vegan please at the very least show some humility and respect. I would also invite other vegans as well as non-vegans to stand up to these trash talkers and push them out of our forum. They're not adding anything of value. If anything they're discouraging a genuinely good people and a good community from flourishing. There is a difference between being inclusive and enabling toxic people. Don't let these jerks manipulate you, shame you, or take away from the intent of this forum. It was created for us. This is our forum.

If you have opinions about vegans and vegan diets, but are unwilling to reconsider them, then go hang out with the the 97% of the world who agrees with you. Congratulate each other, pat yourselves on the back for being so clever. Just do it some other place but here. If you want to talk about the benefits of eating steaks, fish oil, or the wonders of Paleo diets, go to the health forum. Here is the link.
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/f...splay.php?f=71 Quit polluting our space with your odor.

And if you've read this far, thank you, but if you're one of those people who wants to argue against veganism, I don't care what you think.

[Ciona]

I'm not vegan, I'm ovo-lacto but I quite agree with you. While I welcome discussion and dissenting opinions in this section of the forum, it's obvious some individuals come in here with an agenda. It grows tiresome. This is our place.

I may have to go vegan for health reasons soon as I cannot break down animal products very well or in some cases at all and every year it gets worse. Sometimes I feel caught in between vegans who disapprove of my lifestyle and these others with an agenda in a place where all forms of vegetarianism should be welcomed and in my opinion not questioned. In this section of the forum. Save 'your' (not you Flexi-Girl) Strong Opinions for Strong Opinions.

I stopped posting in here long ago when things started becoming toxic and that's also part of why I created my own thread, so I can sort out my dietary situation without that toxicity and receive support from those who care to give it.

And while I welcome anyone who wishes to support me, I have drawn the line at anyone who thinks eating live animals is okay, as I was traumatized by a different thread discussing that last year. That is an obvious hard limit so if 'you' (whoever) were one of the folks who stated that was okay because it happens all over the world or who thinks such an atrocity is okay despite some of these animals having central nervous systems (a sociopathic view as far as I'm concerned), do not visit me on my thread here, or in myspace, also please don't speak to me on any threads. I don't need your support.

[Flexi-Girl]

Originally Posted by Ciona

I'm not vegan, I'm ovo-lacto but I quite agree with you. While I welcome discussion and dissenting opinions in this section of the forum, it's obvious some individuals come in here with an agenda. It grows tiresome. This is our place.

I may have to go vegan for health reasons soon as I cannot break down animal products very well or in some cases at all and every year it gets worse. Sometimes I feel caught in between vegans who disapprove of my lifestyle and these others with an agenda in a place where all forms of vegetarianism should be welcomed and in my opinion not questioned. In this section of the forum. Save 'your' (not you Flexi-Girl) Strong Opinions for Strong Opinions.

I stopped posting in here long ago when things started becoming toxic and that's also part of why I created my own thread, so I can sort out my dietary situation without that toxicity and receive support from those who care to give it.

And while I welcome anyone who wishes to support me, I have drawn the line at anyone who thinks eating live animals is okay, as I was traumatized by a different thread discussing that last year. That is an obvious hard limit so if 'you' (whoever) were one of the folks who stated that was okay because it happens all over the world or who thinks such an atrocity is okay despite some of these animals having central nervous systems (a sociopathic view as far as I'm concerned), do not visit me on my thread here. I don't need your support.

Thank you Ciona. I have nothing but kind words to say to people like you who make a sincere attempt to learn and change their behavior. I also appreciate your support.

Originally Posted by Flexi-Girl

I am not a moderator here. I am not going to tell you, you can't post here but I am allowed to state my opinions.

Over the past several months on this site, there has been an influx of non-vegans posting strong opinions towards vegans and veganism. They come here and arrogantly espouse their anti-vegan sentiment and vegan shaming. They have no intention of learning or understanding other than to argue for why veganism is bad without having done any honest research.

These people also go in to the Buddhist section and do the same. One of them recently proclaimed that he has no intention of really learning, he is just there to convince others to subscribe to his unenlightened, constrained and limited perspective. It was obvious that he had no idea what he was even saying, and yet kept recycling the same old, ridiculous and uninformed "challenges".

I have to admit that I feel it might be the same person on this forum. I agree that such behaviors border on toxicity, if not outright trolling.

Also, I have so much respect and admiration for folks who subscribe to vegetarianism/veganism.

Thanks and sorry for the annoyances, to you both...

JL

[Flexi-Girl]

Originally Posted by janielee

These people also go in to the Buddhist section and do the same. One of them recently proclaimed that he has no intention of really learning, he is just there to convince others to subscribe to his unenlightened, constrained and limited perspective. It was obvious that he had no idea what he was even saying, and yet kept recycling the same old, ridiculous and uninformed "challenges".

I have to admit that I feel it might be the same person on this forum. I agree that such behaviors border on toxicity, if not outright trolling.

Also, I have so much respect and admiration for folks who subscribe to vegetarianism/veganism.

Thanks and sorry for the annoyances, to you both...

JL

Janie,

You're not an annoyance at all. Thank you so much reading this and thank you so much for chiming in!

There is a lot of toxic behavior and manipulation that's been going on in these forums for the last few years.

I have noticed a lot of people coming in who want to debunk, argue and debate just about every topic not because they want to learn but because they just want to stir up the pot. And we let it happen because we're inclusive.

We let these people bully us, manipulate us, trash talk our beliefs in our own spaces and bring down the over-all quality of this forum and over time the quality people get discouraged and go some place else. That's why the Strong Opinion section has is now mostly filled with conspiracy theory garbage.

The moderators can't do it all alone. I am angry because after so long of putting up with this kind of abuse. I think it's important that we members who actually come to spiritual forums to learn, to connect and grow, stand up to these people and make it clear they are not welcome. We can't be polite to these toxic people. If we want to bring back the level of quality this place used to be, we have to work together.

Flexi-Girl,

I'm so sorry for all the hurt that these people have caused. Of course, knowing one of them, he will think that he's the only logical, knowing, wise person That is the issue we are dealing with.

Non-empathy combined with a sense of (false) intellectual superiority. And yet the Universe puts these people in our way and paths. We still have to learn in our own way how we see that.

First, I think we have to protect and cherish our own peace of mind, as much as possible. That is the true path because without that, we are going to be lost. Cultivate that part of yourself that knows how to be in peace, even as the turbulence occurs.

Second, I agree that this forum is really now a shell, a very weak shell, of what it used to be. I guess the moderators have worked hard but it's hard. They banned many people who became argumentative in their minds, the no-offence rule (IMO) forced people who 'argued' to leave (after all, how many times do you want your post deleted, or told off, or banned) BUT it left those who knew how to skirt the rules - be aggressive and rude without using rude words, and then a mish mash of others...

Subtle trolling, or crazy conspiracy theorists who can now run amok. It does feel that they have taken over. I understand the frustration. But I'm hopeful that over time other people will come back, or join again that can have real constructive and mature conversations

I wonder if at some level though, this doesn't mirror the world. Look at world politics. It is the conspiracy, paranoid theorists that are dominant today - anyone that breeds on fear appears to be winning the battle. Ouch.

3. Flexi-Girl, it is because of good hearted, intelligent, wise people like you that I do not lose hope.

It is honorable and strong that you have taken a stance that does not harm animals. I do not have the same fortitude as you although I .. am conscious of it. I would never disparage what I feel takes spirit, courage, wisdom and love. How could anyone?

And yet that is the dichoctomy that we all live in. It is a lesson for us to learn . You hold true, Flexi-Girl. You are true

3. This is an example I have seen in the Buddhist forums https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...136201&page=17 Ignoring them is one option, and if there are enough other folks to converse with, it can help. Let's see.

4. Perhaps as this forum evolves, the moderators will allow for more constructive conversations, and over time, perhaps the trolls will lessen their power and grip (after all, I feel that they must be sad individuals who are so fixated that they cannot be happy in their own lives, and thus come to try to draw energy from others)

5. The most important thing is be happy in your daily life, Flexi-Girl. You are an amazing person so go forth and conquer what brings you joy and meaning in life

Love and Namaste,

JL

[Flexi-Girl]

Originally Posted by janielee

Flexi-Girl,

I'm so sorry for all the hurt that these people have caused. Of course, knowing one of them, he will think that he's the only logical, knowing, wise person That is the issue we are dealing with.

Thank you so much for your kind words. I do so appreciate it.

I think ignoring the trolls was once a good option, but I now feel we're at a point where ignoring is no longer an option. This place was Matt and Lynn's dream. It was meant to be our happy place, our refuge, and beautiful sanctuary.

In the past, I have been afraid to express my spiritual beliefs on this site out of fear of being ridiculed, and I've watched people I care about quietly fade away because they no longer felt welcomed in the place that was intended for them.

I think it's awful the way some people come here to shame and demean others in their own spaces. I feel like we are being treated like a battered spouse who puts up with abuse because we want so much to be kind and standing up to abuse feels unkind.

I feel we have to not only call these people out, but slam the door in their face. Even if we can not get them outright banned we can make them feel completely unwelcome.

Originally Posted by Flexi-Girl

Thank you so much for your kind words. I do so appreciate it.

I think ignoring the trolls was once a good option, but I now feel we're at a point where ignoring is no longer an option. This place was Matt and Lynn's dream. It was meant to be our happy place, our refuge, and beautiful sanctuary.

In the past, I have been afraid to express my spiritual beliefs on this site out of fear of being ridiculed, and I've watched people I care about quietly fade away because they no longer felt welcomed in the place that was intended for them.

I think it's awful the way some people come here to shame and demean others in their own spaces. I feel like we are being treated like a battered spouse who puts up with abuse because we want so much to be kind and standing up to abuse feels unkind.

I feel we have to not only call these people out, but slam the door in their face. Even if we can not get them outright banned we can make them feel completely unwelcome.

I don't disagree with you. There is a difference between honest and respectful inquiry and trolling - which to me, includes insincere inquiry / stirring the pot / disinterest in learning and only intending to cause disruption.

It can be hard for moderators to weed out which is which, and often discussions are subtle.

I do not envy our staff here.

That said, I've always felt that a lot of the discussions have gone away because so many people use the report option. There is a need here to talk "respectfully", but like the people who come on here and challenge veganism and extol the virtues of eating meat, so long as they talk 'calmly' with their logic voice, they fly under the radar.

I have seen people here manipulate the moderation here by crying foul even though they use techniques to stir and test.

These are psychological techniques, I think Shivani Devi once called it gaslighting.

And those who speak up are often warned, canned or deleted. Conversations stopped. Then the subtle messengers remain. Who enjoys that? I can see why so many people have left. I can't thank the moderators enough for the hard work they do and it's a voluntary job - so how do they manage? What do we do?

Yes, perhaps it is up to us, but that poses the new issue of it becomes an argument and maybe the moderators will step in.

I don't know what the answer is, but yes, I see what you are saying, and I don't disagree. We can make this a lighter place perhaps - I know each of us is responsible, including me.

I felt the same way in the Buddhist forum where people who clearly had no idea of what it is, or were even interested in genuinely learning, come and make a mockery of it.

I think these people have issues, but as in all things, it affects others.

Anyway, whatever you do, I'm in agreement with you and Ciona on this one.

I agree that if someone wants to extol meat eating that they should go to another section of the forum.

One individual is the same person anyway. They should probably post on a separate Reddit stream anyway since it's just their way or the highway that they really want - and their agenda is conversion to their singular way of thinking, confirming only that which conforms to their individual mindset.

JL

[Ciona]

Originally Posted by Flexi-Girl

I have noticed a lot of people coming in who want to debunk, argue and debate just about every topic not because they want to learn but because they just want to stir up the pot. And we let it happen because we're inclusive.

This is it exactly.

We let these people bully us, manipulate us, trash talk our beliefs in our own spaces and bring down the over-all quality of this forum and over time the quality people get discouraged and go some place else. That's why the Strong Opinion section has is now mostly filled with conspiracy theory garbage.

Very true about Strong Opinions, that place doesn't even look like the same forum to me anymore. It's become so paranoid it's laughable.

Originally Posted by Ciona

Very true about Strong Opinions, that place doesn't even look like the same forum to me anymore. It's become so paranoid it's laughable.

What's an eye opener for me is how many so called 'spiritually inclined' people subscribe to words of fear and paranoia.

JL