Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

Originally Posted by God-Like

Self or God aware levels are reflecting within our individual behaviours and just because the God-man can potentially Self or God Realize doesn't mean that the rock is inferior to man ..

I'm saying there's no underlying difference between man-clay and rock-clay. It's only an apparent difference (maya) and that apparent difference in no way, shape or form changes the nature of the underlying clay.

EDIT: I'm also saying I'm not man-clay but clay itself, including the clay underlying rock-clay. Well, in one sense yes and one sense no. I am both the dreamer and the dream, however one is fundamentally more real than the other. One endures, the other doesn't.

https://youtu.be/vSuGD0fqotw?list=PL...F2rGcUqIb4O F

[Ordnael]

How does the river affect the spring? The condition of the water on the riverbed can't be better than at its source.

The Divine, through its powers attempts to express itself using the inferior elements of the world, and in doing so it creates the diversity and complexity of lifeforms.

Evolution of these expressions implies improvement, that things are getting better, and that is a subjective concept.

Imagine a radio, the FM and AM stations.

FM is the Eternal source, the AM the temporal manifestations. Both can broadcast music (i.e. expressions of the Divine), but AM has much lower audio quality and is subject to interference due to its inherent limitations.

FM gets no benefit from what happens in the AM stations. AM can change as much as it pleases, but it cannot affect the FM reality since it's merely a product.

To say that the source evolves with its temporal parts infers that they exist and came about out of necessity instead of will, which is not the case, or else, if we all ceased to exist it would diminish the source.

It is comparing the source to humans, who create tools and develop technologies out of need, for survival, to make jobs easier, to make life more comfortable, etc. The things we create out of will instead of necessity we call 'art', which I assume is how the source and its higher powers operate.

Having the fewest wants, I am nearest to the gods. (Socrates)

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Ordnael

How does the river affect the spring? The condition of the water on the riverbed can't be better than at its source.

The Divine, through its powers attempts to express itself using the inferior elements of the world, and in doing so it creates the diversity and complexity of lifeforms.

Evolution of these expressions implies improvement, that things are getting better, and that is a subjective concept.

Imagine a radio, the FM and AM stations.

FM is the Eternal source, the AM the temporal manifestations. Both can broadcast music (i.e. expressions of the Divine), but AM has much lower audio quality and is subject to interference due to its inherent limitations.

FM gets no benefit from what happens in the AM stations. AM can change as much as it pleases, but it cannot affect the FM reality since it's merely a product.

To say that the source evolves with its temporal parts infers that they exist and came about out of necessity instead of will, which is not the case, or else, if we all ceased to exist it would diminish the source.

It is comparing the source to humans, who create tools and develop technologies out of need, for survival, to make jobs easier, to make life more comfortable, etc. The things we create out of will instead of necessity we call 'art', which I assume is how the source and its higher powers operate.

Having the fewest wants, I am nearest to the gods. (Socrates)

There is no necessity for anything. It's all free will. We can choose self limitation and we humans are masters of self-limitation. And we humans are also masters of releasing resistance/limitation/self contradiction. And that's also what makes humans so advanced. To be able to experience so much specificity and detail and reality. Compact, in this timespace reality. Allot of energy, coming to gether, and transforming and expanding into greater allowed realisation. Ongoingly. Effortlessly, naturally. As it requires no action to release the self-limitation. So humans are very used to limitting the self, and they're very good at it, but it is the most difficult thing. And so, we are so good at it, that we believe that releasing resistance is difficult. Even tho it is so easy, that one cannot even do it. One can only allow the allowing. And to remember how easy it is, that is also how we humans re-awaken, evermore ongoingly effortlessly. Throughout all time and space. Eternally and infinite being and becoming evermore effortlessly and naturally and joyfully and freely and lucidly and vividly and knowingly, and undoubtedly, here and now.

[Ordnael]

The spring needs not the river, the river needs not the fish, the fish needs not the humans, but humans need them all.

And because we need them, we also need buckets, fishing nets and fishing rods, fire, plates, cooking pots, silverware, tables and seats, etc. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that most everything that we create and develop is because of our needs.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I'm saying there's no underlying difference between man-clay and rock-clay. It's only an apparent difference (maya) and that apparent difference in no way, shape or form changes the nature of the underlying clay.

EDIT: I'm also saying I'm not man-clay but clay itself, including the clay underlying rock-clay. Well, in one sense yes and one sense no. I am both the dreamer and the dream, however one is fundamentally more real than the other. One endures, the other doesn't.

https://youtu.be/vSuGD0fqotw?list=PL...F2rGcUqIb4O F

You said No matter how fancy, ornate or intricate the pottery, the nature of clay is not changed.

You were not speaking of clay men or rocks .

It is correct to say that what you are is both the dream and the dreamer the perceiver and the perceived but incorrect to say it from the point of I AM the dream / dreamer .

This is where although there is sameness there is difference within your point of perception as an individual compared to the totality .

This is why I asked Sky Waters did she create the moon then?

Your starting block of Pure Awareness is flawed from very start excuse the pun because you are already in duality mode .

What you are as a starting block has to be beyond duality and beyond non duality and to be even more precise here it would be beyond the starting and finishing point/s .

You can't have a starting point in duality because you will imply that there is what you are that isn't Pure and that's just mind conclusion/s based upon judgements and prejudices and conditioning .

This is why the Truth of all this Pure Consciousness and Awareness falls short of the mark too because the Truth is just another one of those duality things .

This is why I speak of the mind-trap and plenty of Guru types are trapped within the scriptures just like the christians are with the bible .


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by John32241

Yes I agree. The human mind being the human intellect.

My understaning is that the intellect isolates itself from core wisdom. That there is a natural connection it has with the heart and the 3rd eye. However it needs to be trained through us to integrate itself with those aspects of self.

I am curious about your perspective on that process.

John

John has noted a core truth in 3 parts, in his paragraph of 3 sentences, above. So John, I'm completely agreed with all you've said.
It is about living from the heart centre with awakened mind in service to awakened heart.

Has JustaSimpleGuy (or anyone else) responded back to his query?

The reason why I believe John's statements are key is that I believe it may be quite difficult to address this topic in depth without having come to a heart-centred consciousness and lived it out, day-to-day.

That is, what you share is just not "heard" by many, or it may not resonate or be understood fully. Always a difficult thing.

Perhaps I'm way off base, but I feel my own understanding on this has changed a fair bit over the years. I'll respond to the OP and share it.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

John has noted a core truth in 3 parts, in his paragraph of 3 sentences, above. So John, I'm completely agreed with all you've said.
It is about living from the heart centre with awakened mind in service to awakened heart.

Has JustaSimpleGuy (or anyone else) responded back to his query?

The reason why I believe John's statements are key is that I believe it may be quite difficult to address this topic in depth without having come to a heart-centred consciousness and lived it out, day-to-day.

That is, what you share is just not "heard" by many, or it may not resonate or be understood fully. Always a difficult thing.

Perhaps I'm way off base, but I feel my own understanding on this has changed a fair bit over the years. I'll respond to the OP and share it.

Peace & blessings
7L

I keep it simple. There's Consciousness/Unified Field depending whether one looks at it from a spiritual or scientific perspective. Everything else is simply a temporary manifestation of and within Consciousness/Unified Field.

Some other labels that can be applied are Absolute, Vast, Infinite, Emptiness, Self, One, Source, Unity, Brahman, God, etc...

I believe what John refers to is a means to that end (knowledge, understanding, realization) and the same can be said for any and all spiritual practices.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I'd say Consciousness always was, is and always will be and independently so. What evolves are the forms that are illuminated by consciousness, one of them being the human mind.

"God sleeps in the rock, dreams in the plant, stirs in the animal, and awakens in man." ~ Ibn Arabi

Hello Just,
First, I do agree with you that consciousness IS and is beyond time (and thus, the entire material realm). Meaning, and this is key, it is unbounded and not limited by the finite aspect of the material realm. When the material arises and then passes, consciousness simply is and thus consciousness remains.

But, due to the interbeing of One and Many (we are among the Many), there is always growth and change. At the level of Many and at the level of One. One and Many are relevant, meaningful distinctions that we make to sort our reality. There are real distinctions that accrue to Many versus One in our physical reality and in the fact of our individuated consciousness as sentient beings. However, ultimately Many and One are not separate simply because they are distinct. We are forever bound and intertwined. IOW, this is interbeing at the grand level, and not just the interbeing of humanity or life on earth, etc.


-- Individuated consciousness does evolve [grow, change, learn] over "infinity", else it is re-cast to grow and evolve elsewhere

We could rather arrogantly call this "evolution", with the (big) assumption that we are in fact moving onward and upward spiritually, morally, and ethically in some positive or sustainable fashion. Huge, huge question there, and growth doesn't automatically mean evolution in any functional sense.

Rather, being conscious, self-away sentients, we must ultimately consciously choose to engage, take decisions, and take ownership for our journey. Otherwise our "growth" may be circular, regressive, desultory, and/or misaligned and unsustainable...at which point we must truly change and evolve...OR if we choose not to do so, then we will ultimately be re-cast into new forms of consciousness.

This is where the core of John's truths come into play. Again, the being and doing are not "means to ends" once integrated. That is not a coherent concept beyond a certain point. Being and doing are not separate from apprehension or illumination, once integrated. That is why it is referred to as "the way". It is All, is it Many, it is you and it is your path (being and doing). And that is how we evolve, vs. getting re-cast

and

-- One consciousness (What Is, All, etc) necessarily incorporates and is inclusive of that evolution. And the relationship of One with Many also changes in each moment.

Thus, nothing is static, including All That Is or undifferentiated One.
Everything exists in interbeing, in its being and in its function, neither of which can be naturally parsed but only artificially taken apart. Mostly to accommodate our conceptual limitations.

Even the undifferentiation of All must expand and grow in its undifferentiated foundation to incorporate the ever-changing reality of What Is in each moment. Or, simply in its moment-to-moment relationship with all other (individuated or communal) forms of consciousness.

That is, *even if* ONE is wholly unaware of all other consciousness, nonetheless it has changed in relationship to all other (differentiated) consciousness in each moment. Because all other consciousness has changed in each mo. Like a body that grows whilst you sleep or go about your business, it changes and thus so do you. At some point, you even become conscious of it (body's growth), and of how you've changed as a result hahaha Shivani and others were also getting at this concept, as I understood it, and God-Like has spoken at length about this duality. Or as I have called it, the distinction (of One and Many) within our interbeing.

There is no separation. Interbeing does NOT mean sameness, however. There is distinction, as God-Like and I have both noted.
The mystics have always told us that separation is the greatest illusion, along with its associates, "death" and "time".
I believe that is an ultimate truth or reality. Meaning, that goes for us, for all that is, and that goes for One as well.

Therefore, consciousness has always experienced growth and change...(and we would further like to call that "evolution", right? Certainly regarding ourselves and the One-Many relationship we (humanity) have).
Those are my thoughts...what do you think?

Peace & blessings
7L

[John32241]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

The reason why I believe John's statements are key is that I believe it may be quite difficult to address this topic in depth without having come to a heart-centred consciousness and lived it out, day-to-day.

That is, what you share is just not "heard" by many, or it may not resonate or be understood fully. Always a difficult thing.

Hello 7L,

Nice to see your comment.

I follow the Kryon teachings. One of the things that gets talked about a lot is how a lower consciousness can not comprehend the wisdom presented by a higher consciousness. However if that were 100% true, all of the time, then none of us could evolve.

The key in my mind to evolving is having the humility to appreciate How Much you do not understand. Not many if any intellectual posters has that quality.

The more central key is being compassionate. That involves a great many things like kindness and respect for all ways of being and thinking. This is that heart centered way of being you speak about. Without it nothing can be learned. For the wisdom in the heart is core truth.

Our intellect will always see itself as well informed. That is a natural survival trait. Self preservation being the highest priority for all living creatures. Moving beyond that is not a consideration for many even when they know they are immortal spiritual beings. That is because personal change can indeed be hard.

So I do what I can to answer the questions being asked. I do not mind it when my replies are seemingly not helpful. I feel if I am inspired to respond to a question then it will have some value. The subconscious, which is 1 million times more aware that the intellect (that has been scientifically proven) then in many cases I am responding to a person's subconscious. What I speak about may be beyond their logical reasoning, however at deeper levels, they hear me.

Much of the time I do not get into discussions with others. I do not even read most of what others talk about. If a point of view can not be simply expressed then I would not be able to comprehend it.

John

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello Just,
First, I do agree with you that consciousness IS and is beyond time (and thus, the entire material realm). Meaning, and this is key, it is unbounded and not limited by the finite aspect of the material realm. When the material arises and then passes, consciousness simply is and thus consciousness remains.

But, due to the interbeing of One and Many (we are among the Many), there is always growth and change. At the level of Many and at the level of One. One and Many are relevant, meaningful distinctions that we make to sort our reality. There are real distinctions that accrue to Many versus One in our physical reality and in the fact of our individuated consciousness as sentient beings. However, ultimately Many and One are not separate simply because they are distinct. We are forever bound and intertwined. IOW, this is interbeing at the grand level, and not just the interbeing of humanity or life on earth, etc.


-- Individuated consciousness does evolve [grow, change, learn] over "infinity", else it is re-cast to grow and evolve elsewhere

We could rather arrogantly call this "evolution", with the (big) assumption that we are in fact moving onward and upward spiritually, morally, and ethically in some positive or sustainable fashion. Huge, huge question there, and growth doesn't automatically mean evolution in any functional sense.

Rather, being conscious, self-away sentients, we must ultimately consciously choose to engage, take decisions, and take ownership for our journey. Otherwise our "growth" may be circular, regressive, desultory, and/or misaligned and unsustainable...at which point we must truly change and evolve...OR if we choose not to do so, then we will ultimately be re-cast into new forms of consciousness.

This is where the core of John's truths come into play. Again, the being and doing are not "means to ends" once integrated. That is not a coherent concept beyond a certain point. Being and doing are not separate from apprehension or illumination, once integrated. That is why it is referred to as "the way". It is All, is it Many, it is you and it is your path (being and doing). And that is how we evolve, vs. getting re-cast

and

-- One consciousness (What Is, All, etc) necessarily incorporates and is inclusive of that evolution. And the relationship of One with Many also changes in each moment.

Thus, nothing is static, including All That Is or undifferentiated One.
Everything exists in interbeing, in its being and in its function, neither of which can be naturally parsed but only artificially taken apart. Mostly to accommodate our conceptual limitations.

Even the undifferentiation of All must expand and grow in its undifferentiated foundation to incorporate the ever-changing reality of What Is in each moment. Or, simply in its moment-to-moment relationship with all other (individuated or communal) forms of consciousness.

That is, *even if* ONE is wholly unaware of all other consciousness, nonetheless it has changed in relationship to all other (differentiated) consciousness in each moment. Because all other consciousness has changed in each mo. Like a body that grows whilst you sleep or go about your business, it changes and thus so do you. At some point, you even become conscious of it (body's growth), and of how you've changed as a result hahaha Shivani and others were also getting at this concept, as I understood it, and God-Like has spoken at length about this duality. Or as I have called it, the distinction (of One and Many) within our interbeing.

There is no separation. Interbeing does NOT mean sameness, however. There is distinction, as God-Like and I have both noted.
The mystics have always told us that separation is the greatest illusion, along with its associates, "death" and "time".
I believe that is an ultimate truth or reality. Meaning, that goes for us, for all that is, and that goes for One as well.

Those are my thoughts...what do you think?

Peace & blessings
7L

From a strict non-dualist perspective, It's not only beyond the limit of space and time but also causality. That being the case it is not the effect of any cause therefore always was and cannot be changed.

What you call individuated consciousness I call manifested consciousness, and it's only a reflection of unmanifested consciousness and limited to the mirror doing the reflecting.

Can a wave change the nature of water? Can a cloud change the nature of space? Both appear, linger for a time and then subside and water is still water and space is still space.

Can your reflection in a mirror change you?