WHOM TO WORSHIP SHIVA or KRISHNA ?

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Conditioning can work both ways. Allow me to provide an example:

If you believe the knowledge and teachings of Krishna and Rama is equal to or surpasses those of the founding members of the Brahma Kumaris movement, then you must be dreaming!

Both Krishna and Rama are seen to be worshipping the Shivalingam.

In the ancient Guruvayur temple, it is stated that one must visit the Mammiyur Shiva temple before visiting the Sri Krishna Guruvayur temple, as Krishna's Ishtadevata is considered to be Shivalingam. In the ancient Sri Rama temple nearby in Triprayar, one similarly ought to visit the Melthrikovil Shiva temple before visiting the Sri Rama temple as Rama's Ishtadevata is the Shivalingam.

Similarly, in Rameshwaram, as per tradition, Rama is said to have built the Shiva temple with Shivalingam. The Shivalingam over there is also known as Ramanathaswamy, which mean's Rama's Lord Shiva, 'Natha' meaning Lord.

Rameshwaram means Rama's Eshwar or Rama's God Shiva.

The Shiva temple at Rameshwaram is also one of the twelve Jyotirlinga temples, with Jyoti meaning light and Linga meaning mark, that is, a mark of light.

This is exactly what the Brahmakumaris state of Shiva being a point of light. . This is also what the Vedic teachings in the Atharva Veda says, as emphasized by Swami Vivekananda and the Shiva Puranas too.


Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the founder of the Art of Living Foundation, also emphasizes this fact....


https://www.artofliving.org/worshiping-gods

In the ancient age, there was no form of Lord Shiva holding a Trishul (Trident), or anything like that. In ancient days, there was only a Pind (a stone) that was kept and then by chanting mantras, the Chaitanya Shakti (energy pervading all of the Divine Consciousness) was awakened and manifested in the Pind. So this is how it was worshiped. -
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

Even earlier, in the Sanatan Dharma (referring to an earlier name for Hinduism) there were no idols or idol worship as such, but only Havans (ritual in which making offerings into a consecrated fire is the primary action) were performed and Lord Shiva’s pind would be placed to establish his presence. That was it, nothing else would be done.

It was only later that the custom of installing idols came up. -
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

Now, why did the practice of having idols begin?

This was because by seeing the idol a feeling of devotion would arise from within.

The other reason is that when Buddhists and Jains made their temples they would place such beautiful idols at the altar. So then those who followed Sanatan Dharma felt that they should also do something like this. So they also followed the same and began to establish different idols of Lord Vishnu, Lord Rama and Lord Krishna.

You will not find any mention of a practice of installing idols for worship in the Bhagavad Gita or the Ramayana.

Only the Shiva Linga was installed. That is why only the Shiva Linga was there in the ancient period, which was worshiped by Lord Krishna, Lord Rama and everyone else. - Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Both Krishna and Rama are seen to be worshipping the Shivalingam.

In the ancient Guruvayur temple, it is stated that one must visit the Mammiyur Shiva temple before visiting the Sri Krishna Guruvayur temple, as Krishna's Ishtadevata is considered to be Shivalingam. In the ancient Sri Rama temple nearby in Triprayar, one similarly ought to visit the Melthrikovil Shiva temple before visiting the Sri Rama temple as Rama's Ishtadevata is the Shivalingam.

Similarly, in Rameshwaram, as per tradition, Rama is said to have built the Shiva temple with Shivalingam. The Shivalingam over there is also known as Ramanathaswamy, which mean's Rama's Lord Shiva, 'Natha' meaning Lord.

Rameshwaram means Rama's Eshwar or Rama's God Shiva.

The Shiva temple at Rameshwaram is also one of the twelve Jyotirlinga temples, with Jyoti meaning light and Linga meaning mark, that is, a mark of light.

This is exactly what the Brahmakumaris state of Shiva being a point of light. . This is also what the Vedic teachings in the Atharva Veda says, as emphasized by Swami Vivekananda and the Shiva Puranas too.


Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the founder of the Art of Living Foundation, also emphasizes this fact....


https://www.artofliving.org/worshiping-gods

let me try something here.... Last ditch attempt before I say "okay, whatever you say, I will believe anything you say to make you feel less insecure".

From where do we get the story of the 12 Jyotirlingams?
Do we get it from the Vedas? From Sruti?
Of course not!
The story of the 12 Jyotirlingams comes primarily from the Linga and Skanda Puranas.
The Puranas are not Sruti, they are Smriti.
You have previously discounted the Puranas as not being true or accurate because only the Vedas are the true source of all knowledge.
You said that the Puranas are wrong because they describe the being you call "Shankar" as being Lord Shiva himself.
So, are you now saying that only that part of the Puranas is wrong but everything else is correct and should be taken as true wisdom?
Do you even know the stories behind ALL the 12 Jyotir Lingams as I do?
Who is to say that any mortal human can get to pick and choose between all the Puranic narratives going "this one is true, but that one is a load of bull?"
From where is that authority obtained?

Aum Namah Shivaya

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

let me try something here.... Last ditch attempt before I say "okay, whatever you say, I will believe anything you say to make you feel less insecure".

From where do we get the story of the 12 Jyotirlingams?
Do we get it from the Vedas? From Sruti?
Of course not!
The story of the 12 Jyotirlingams comes primarily from the Linga and Skanda Puranas.
The Puranas are not Sruti, they are Smriti.
You have discounted the Puranas as not being true or accurate because only the Vedas is the true source of all knowledge.
You said that the Puranas are wrong because they describe the being you call *Shankar" as being Lord Shiva himself.

Even in the Puranas too, you can see the Shivalingam being a cosmic pillar of light, especially Shivapuranas, supporting the vedic interpretation as put by Vivekananda.

Later interpolations came up in the Puranas distorting this given fact.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Do you even know the stories behind all the 12 Jyotir Lingams as I do?
Who is to say that any mortal human can get to pick and choose between all the Puranic narratives going "this one is true, but that one is a load of bull?
From where is that authority obtained?

Aum Namah Shivaya

The Jyotirlinga stories in the Puranas are metaphorical stories created to impart wisdom to the masses who lacked the intellectual depth required to realise the deep philosophy within. That is all.

Jyoti means light and Linga means mark, thereby the term means mark of light.




The Shivalingam is a personalised aspect of Brahman,namely Saguna Brahman.



As per Hinduism, Brahman is of the nature of pure consciousness.

Prajñānam brahma - Brahman is pure consciousness (Aitareya Upanishad 3.3 of the Rig Veda)



And enlightened sages like Ramakrishna and Ramana had pointed out the nature of Brahman in these sayings....

'It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things.' - Ramakrishna


“The Self (pure consciousness) is self-luminous without darkness and light, and is the reality which is self-manifest." - Ramana Maharshi


There the sun does not shine, nor the moon, nor the stars, nor does the lightning flash, what to speak of fire! Because of Thy Light all is illumined. With His shining everything shines. - Mundaka Upanishad


Brahman is the Light of lights.
He is Self-luminous.
He is Supreme Light.
He is ultimate light.
He is an embodiment of Light.
By His Light all else shines. ~ Brahmarahasya Upanishad






The self-luminous nature of God is also described in other religious scriptures as well, as mentioned in this thread of mine...

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=127748

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Even in the Puranas too, you can see the Shivalingam being a cosmic pillar of light, especially Shivapuranas, supporting the vedic interpretation as put by Vivekananda.

Later interpolations came up in the Puranas distorting this given fact.






The Jyotirlinga stories in the Puranas are metaphorical stories created to impart wisdom to the masses who lacked the intellectual depth required to realise the deep philosophy within. That is all.

Jyoti means light and Linga means mark, thereby the term means mark of light.




The Shivalingam is a personalised aspect of Brahman,namely Saguna Brahman.



As per Hinduism, Brahman is of the nature of pure consciousness.

Prajñānam brahma - Brahman is pure consciousness (Aitareya Upanishad 3.3 of the Rig Veda)



And enlightened sages like Ramakrishna and Ramana had pointed out the nature of Brahman in these sayings....

'It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things.' - Ramakrishna


“The Self (pure consciousness) is self-luminous without darkness and light, and is the reality which is self-manifest." - Ramana Maharshi


There the sun does not shine, nor the moon, nor the stars, nor does the lightning flash, what to speak of fire! Because of Thy Light all is illumined. With His shining everything shines. - Mundaka Upanishad


Brahman is the Light of lights.
He is Self-luminous.
He is Supreme Light.
He is ultimate light.
He is an embodiment of Light.
By His Light all else shines. ~ Brahmarahasya Upanishad






The self-luminous nature of God is also described in other religious scriptures as well, as mentioned in this thread of mine...

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=127748

Yes, you are 100℅ correct.

Now excuse me while I go and pay homage to Lord Shiva AS Shankar... More precisely, AS Yogeshwara.... As the being who taught all of the occult knowledge to mankind.. Especially to the Sapta Rishis and the Sanat Kumaras through silence and the Gyan/Chin mudra... Who instructed Matsyendranath to write the Tantras... Who took human form as Lakulisha... Who appeared as the Avatar of Sharabha to destroy Narsimha Deva... Who destroyed Prajapati Daksha's sacrifice due to his incessant arrogant insolence.

Whatever his name is (he has never objected to me calling him "Shiva", put it THAT way), he is the one I worship.

Besides, whose explanation sounds more "plausible"? A billion ignorant/illiterate people who agree with me? Or a million (or so) educated and wise people who do not? I think I'll take my chances with the masses AND follow my heart at the same time.

JAI SHIVA SHANKAR!
HARA HARA MAHADEV!

[Shivani Devi]

The Sublime Vision - by SWAMI SIVANANDA

The adorable Lord of all bliss, all love, all mercy
The supreme light that shines in my heart
The Lord who fed Sambandhar and Appar
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Great Ancient, the Goal of Yogis
The Supreme Purusha that dwells in the Puri
The Adi Deva, whom the Vedas sing of
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The pillar of light which baffled Brahma and Vishnu
The ocean of mercy who saved Markandeya
The Lord of Madurai whom the Pandya beat
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The supreme Teacher who taught the four
The Adi Deva who has assumed the five
Parama, Vyuha, Vibhava, Archa and Antaryamin,
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Lord who pervades the universe
The thread-soul, the Sutratman,
The over-soul, the purport of Srutis
Him I saw at the abode, of Rishis.

The effulgence who is above the Three
Who exists even after the Pralaya
Who saved Kannappa and Sundarar
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

He who drank the poison and saved the world,
He who danced at Chidambaram,
He who shines as the Jyotirlinga
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

He who brought the jackal-horses to Pandya
He who gave pearl-palanquin to Sambandhar
He who is the essence of Panchakshara
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

He who dwells in Banares and Vedas,
In Ramesvar, Arunachal and Kanchi,
In the hearts of all beings
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

He who pleaded on behalf of Darumi
He who dwells in Kailas with Uma
He who restored the eyesight of Sundarar
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Lord who gave stick to blind Appar
The Grace who begged alms for Sundarar
The Marga Bandhu who showed the way to Appayya Dixitar
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Mercy who took the message to Paravai
The Love who wrote the poem for Darumi
The Fire that burnt Nakirar
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Lord who became a cooly at Madurai
And carried earth for stopping the floods
For the sake of a little sweetmeat
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Lord who created tank and garden for the devotee
Who became the slave of His devotees
Who sent the pearl-palanquin to Sambandhar
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The hunter who quarrelled with Arjuna
The untouchable who debated with Sankara
The groom who took the horses to Pandya
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Lord who has Uma as His left side
Who is also Narayana of the milk ocean
Who is the child sleeping on the banian leaf
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Lord who is the Holiest, the Oldest
Who is Jyoti within the Jyoti
Who is praised by the Devas and Rishis
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

He who is Ambalam in Chidambaram
Who is brilliance in Arunachalam
Who is the great thief hiding in forms
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Satguru who reveals in the Chidakasa
Who breaks all the three bonds
Who leads the aspirants to the land of Moksha
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

The Lord who dwells in the Sahasrara
Who is the way, the goal and the centre,
Who is the truth in the Mahavakya
Him I saw at the abode of Rishis.

- SWAMI SIVANANDA

Now, I do not know what God it is that YOU worship, but the one described above by Swami Sivananda himself (from the book, Lord Siva and His Worship) is the being that I love and venerate and I cannot help it.. Just as the sun cannot help but shine, or the world cannot help but spin around etc..

Aum Namah Shivaya

[NoOne]

In the Tantrikas vs Vaishnavas debate, the issue of diet is often the hottest topic of contention. I was gratified to find that Gopi Krishna supports my own experiences in this subject:

The awakening, as I’ve already mentioned, is of two kinds, one gradual and the other
sudden. When the new energy rushes to the brain, it creates a higher state of conscious-
ness soon after the arousal. In this case, the candidate has to exert himself in all direc-
tions; primarily he has to be attentive to his food and to keep his mind in a state of equi-
librium. If he fails to attend to these essential requirements the result can be disastrous.
His stomach should never be empty, for example, and he has to take a light meal after
every three hours and sometimes even more frequently to make up for the tremendous
expenditure of energy needed for the transformation and the adjustment of the brain
and nervous system.
At this critical time, he can be compared to an athlete preparing for a contest. In fact, he
has to be much more careful about his diet and behavior in order to save his life and
sanity. The constant presence of the teacher is absolutely necessary at this critical time.
In various Tantras, the ancient manuals dealing with this aspect of Yoga, the use of ani-
mal foods is advocated in the case of initiates arousing Kundalini. This fact has brought
the Shakti cult into disrepute. Actually, this injunction is meant to meet a most impor-
tant biological need of the initiate through the critical period of the awakening and even
later on throughout his life. Because in his case a larger consumption of prana becomes
necessary to maintain a highly extended state of consciousness. A regulated supply of
concentrated food, suited to his digestion, is absolutely necessary.
It is easy to understand that metabolic processes in an adult, aimed to bring about radical changes in the cerebrospinal system to adjust it to a higher state of conscious-
ness, cannot function at all without proper nourishment to maintain the strength of the
body.

Does this mean that some people are in mental hospitals because they didn’t eat cor-
rectly?
That is possible. In the case of a spontaneous awakening, even if the energy is benignly
disposed, serious mistakes made in diet can lead to mental disorder. During this pe-
riod, the seminal energy is produced in abundance to nourish the brain and the nerves.
For this increased production of sex energy to save the brain, nourishing food at proper
intervals is of paramount importance. A man or woman, aspiring for super-
consciousness, stands in need of the greatest care in respect of diet and other things,
and it is absolutely necessary that science should have knowledge of these laws.

[Jake442]

"The one who distinguishes between Shiva and Vishnu is the true atheist"-- Sri Ganapati Sachidananda Swami

[winter light]

These words came to me a few months ago and I did not know where to put them. This thread seems a good place and I thank everyone who has offered their sharing here.

Aum Namah Shivaya
I honor the creator within and without
In every thought
In every action
In every expression
The unwavering light of your being
Shines on into eternity

[peteyzen]

Originally Posted by winter light

These words came to me a few months ago and I did not know where to put them. This thread seems a good place and I thank everyone who has offered their sharing here.

Aum Namah Shivaya
I honor the creator within and without
In every thought
In every action
In every expression
The unwavering light of your being
Shines on into eternity

thats lovely

[ArthurRichardson]

We should stop this game of playing with people's devotion and dividing them. We should tell people the truth of spirit. The truth is Krishna is the Almighty, Eternal, Omnipotent and Omniscient. Only He manifests Himself in different forms like Vishnu or Shiva or Narayana, but they are no different than Himself. So first we need to know the knowledge and should not argue over things which we dont know.