God did not quite say his name was I AM.

[RabbiO]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You raise an excellent point about St. Augustine regarding "Christianity before Christ". Quoting St. Augustine:

"That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time, the true religion, which already existed, began to be called Christianity."

Apparently Tobi's admonition - the post right above yours - carries no weight with you.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by RabbiO

Apparently Tobi's admonition - the post right above yours - carries no weight with you.

Aha ! An ungentle admonition from RabbiO !

Apparently, it never crossed your mind that, as one reads through a thread and finds a post on which one chooses to comment, one's post automatically goes to the end of the thread. Hence, your assumption that I read the post immediately before mine ("Tobi's admonition") is blatantly false. Actually, when I saw your post, I had to look back through the thread to figure out what you were talking about. That was the first time that I saw Tobi's post.

Since you jump to false conclusions so quickly in such a judgmental way, it makes one wonder whether you similarly jump to false conclusions on other subjects as well.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

So what is it that we are not to take in vain? Jehovah? Yahweh? YWHW? I Am?
And what is to be hallowed?

Oh, sorry, did I just start a new topic?

It does appear that no one really knows what the "name of God" is and even the authorship of the Old Testament remains an open question, Miss Hepburn. Does it really really matter though ?

In 1800, the Bible was regarded by much of the world to be true, the unchallenged word of God. It was generally accepted that the Pentateuch was written by Moses and that the stories were factually accurate and that the contents were divine. Under scrutiny, contradictions arose and extensive research was conducted on issues ranging from authorship to the names of God to the accuracy of so-called "historical events".

As noted previously in this thread, Genesis has two different versions of Creation with Elohim being the protagonist in one and Yahweh in the other.

Using linguistic analysis, word frequency, and even syllable count, the German scholar Julius Wellhausen researched the writing styles and concluded that there were at least four (4) separate sources for the "Moses Torah".

1. The oldest section was the "J" section for the kingdom of Judah in which the name Yahweh appears most. This accounts for many of the narratives.

2. The second section is the "E" (Elohim) section which mentions Elohim and was probably written in the Kingdom of Israel.

3. The third section comprises the "legal" elements and he calls this the "P" (priest) section.

4. The fourth section is found only in Deuteronomy ("D" section).

(Richard Elliot Friedman of the University of California dated the "D" section to approximately 622 BC and attributed it to Baruch, a scribe in the court of Jeremiah. He adds that the redactor who combined the various sources was Ezra the Scribe, who lived at the time of the Second Temple.)

(Harold Bloom, the Yale literary critic, wrote a book supporting his thesis that the "J" section was actually written by a woman because of its style and sensitivity.)

Whether the above information is accurate or not is open to debate. However, since the authorship of the Old Testament does seem to be an open question (unlikely to have been Moses according to the consensus of Biblical scholars) and since so many factual/"historical" contradictions are arising, this thread on using the Bible to figure out the name of God seems to be going nowhere except for whatever entertainment value it may provide.

P.S. I'm curious to hear if RabbiO, "the admonisher", has any comments.

[RabbiO]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

P.S. I'm curious to hear if RabbiO, "the admonisher", has any comments.

I'm curious to know whether you are going to feel compelled to attack my character in every post or whether you actually want to engage in conversation.

[RabbiO]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Aha ! An ungentle admonition from RabbiO !

Apparently, it never crossed your mind that, as one reads through a thread and finds a post on which one chooses to comment, one's post automatically goes to the end of the thread. Hence, your assumption that I read the post immediately before mine ("Tobi's admonition") is blatantly false. Actually, when I saw your post, I had to look back through the thread to figure out what you were talking about. That was the first time that I saw Tobi's post.

Since you jump to false conclusions so quickly in such a judgmental way, it makes one wonder whether you similarly jump to false conclusions on other subjects as well.

Should I have been gentler in my admonishment? Perhaps, and for not doing so I apologize. However, your admonition in response was not simply ungentle, it was vicious and mean spirited.

[Miss Hepburn]

Still Waters...you mention no one really knows God's Name...
I do!!!! Hahahaha, not because I'm smart or special but because it is
an esoteric 'thing' that is revealed by certain Gurus in the East.
It is actually funny how many many yogis and gurus teach things like doing austerities, praying with their beads, doing mantras,
saying Rama or Om over and over...

Ha, i talked with one devotee of 'I forget who', sorry....lived in an ashram in Boston, was the House Father/cook. I directly asked him,
"So, is there an initiation of some sort?"
Oh yes, and he tells me these Hindi phrases to be repeated ....3 levels..
He tells me the last Mantra. I ask, "Do you do this one?"
Astonished, he says "NO!" (Because it is so advanced, you see...his hand on his chest.)

I ask him what it means in English, it went like this: "O Brahma, I bow to your Holy Name,
Your Holy Name (Sat Naam =True Name) resounds throughout all creation."

This, was what he was dedicating his life to....saying praises over and over in another language,
relating to the Name of God, but he did not have any idea what it even WAS! Wow.
It was nutty to me.

But, this Holy Name of God, the True Name or Sat Naam is unspeakable...it is a Sound that is in you at this moment, a Vibration inside you.

Only a small group of gurus reveal it to their devotees and not right away, that's for sure!
All they do is point you inward and guide you basically....it's right there....
and why Being Still is SO important....it is so subtle.

Yahweh is a good imitation of the actual sound, btw....that morphed over years to Jehovah, of course.
They are imitations of the sound.

God was way before tongues and vocal chords and Jews!
His Name is not for our mouths it is something all together different.

I have said this so much , yet, people buck me on this a lot.
All I can say is, "Whatever".

What resounds in all creation ....Yahweh? No...YHWH....no...it is a Vibration....hmmm, maybe I could say
a frequency or wavelength.
Like, humming is....the act of humming isn't a word....but we have a word for it... 'humming'. LOL... hard to explain.


Research True Name, Sat Naam, Shabd or Shabd Brahm..Sikhs and Hinduism often can lead you to other sources.


God's Name is God's Name ...a particular man made religion makes no diff, of course.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Still Waters...you mention no one really knows God's Name...
I do!!!! Hahahaha, not because I'm smart or special but because it is
an esoteric 'thing' that is revealed by certain Gurus in the East.
It is actually funny how many many yogis and gurus teach things like doing austerities, praying with their beads, doing mantras,
saying Rama or Om over and over...

Ha, i talked with one devotee of 'I forget who', sorry....lived in an ashram in Boston, was the House Father/cook. I directly asked him,
"So, is there an initiation of some sort?"
Oh yes, and he tells me these Hindi phrases to be repeated ....3 levels..
He tells me the last Mantra. I ask, "Do you do this one?"
Astonished, he says "NO!" (Because it is so advanced, you see...his hand on his chest.)

I ask him what it means in English, it went like this: "O Brahma, I bow to your Holy Name,
Your Holy Name (Sat Naam =True Name) resounds throughout all creation."

This, was what he was dedicating his life to....saying praises over and over in another language,
relating to the Name of God, but he did not have any idea what it even WAS! Wow.
It was nutty to me.

But, this Holy Name of God, the True Name or Sat Naam is unspeakable...it is a Sound that is in you at this moment, a Vibration inside you.

Only a small group of gurus reveal it to their devotees and not right away, that's for sure!
All they do is point you inward and guide you basically....it's right there....
and why Being Still is SO important....it is so subtle.

Yahweh is a good imitation of the actual sound, btw....that morphed over years to Jehovah, of course.
They are imitations of the sound.

God was way before tongues and vocal chords and Jews!
His Name is not for our mouths it is something all together different.

I have said this so much , yet, people buck me on this a lot.
All I can say is, "Whatever".

What resounds in all creation ....Yahweh? No...YHWH....no...it is a Vibration....hmmm, maybe I could say
a frequency or wavelength.
Like, humming is....the act of humming isn't a word....but we have a word for it... 'humming'. LOL... hard to explain.


Research True Name, Sat Naam, Shabd or Shabd Brahm..Sikhs and Hinduism often can lead you to other sources.


God's Name is God's Name ...a particular man made religion makes no diff, of course.

Having spent significant time in Sikh Temples in NYC, London, India, and elsewhere, I am very familiar with the Sat Nam chant since it is often chanted continuously at the various Sikh Temples. Versions of it are on youtube and I enjoy listening to it from time to time. I have also discussed it at length with Sikh "Babas" at the temples. In addition, the writings of Kirpal Singh were of great interest to me at one time.

However, what is a "name" and what specifically is meant by the "name of God" ? A name is definitely NOT the thing being named. That much is obvious. It is a word (or words) either attributed to the thing or explicitly identified with by the thing named. In general, I agree with the process you described so let's proceed along those lines.

Switching gears slightly, the Sufi Master Hazrat Inayat Khan indicated that behind the whole manifestation is vibration, which may be called movement of the Primal Intelligence. As with dream formation, one who practices conscious sleep (like myself) can attest that there is an initial ryhthm/vibration that starts in the depths of the dreamer ("Man is created in the image of God", "As above, so below"). The primary vibration separates into various other vibrations as the manifestation appears as separate entities. The initial vibration(s), as you duly noted are very very subtle --- subtler even than thoughts. That it is why it is essential that one "Be Still" in order to become aware of these very subtle vibrations. The various manifestations may even be vertical (God, Dreamer, Dream-object to name just three levels) and/or horizontal (parallel universes). Hence, there are various rays emanating from the primal Sun (light) each of which has its own unique vibration and super-subtle sound. For one who traces the sound or the light back to the Source, the vibration has a certain uniqueness. Are you receptive to the possibility that each of us in this "unity with diversity" may thus connect with a different vibration whereby various mantras (Sat Nam, Om, Ram --- to name a few that you mentioned) resonate most strongly with each one corresponding to a different unique ray of the same Sun. Hence, there appear to be differences where in fact there are none to one who can see the big picture. (Keep in mind the classic story of the blind men who each touch a different part of an elephant and all corresponding describe the elephant in quite different terms since none of them can see the big picture.)

I do not dispute that your experience has led you to connect with God through the Sat Nam "name" but is it possible that you are connecting with one of the branches of the initial primal vibration whereas others are connecting with another branch? Just as a person may be "dad" to one and "brother" to another, it would appear that each of us may connect to the Light in a different way ..... until One reaches what the quantum physicists call the "theoretical (because they can't isolate it) unified force field" behind it all.

Does That which lies beyond it all call out to be named in a certain manner? That is not my impression or my intuitive feeling. However, if it makes people comfortable to address That with a name, that is understandable.

Sat Nam is not as primal as a mantra like OM, which is considered by many to be the "name of God" since the sound OM is made simply by opening the mouth (A) followed by letting the air out as the mouth opens wide (O) and closes (M). Sat Nam requires more oral manipulation to make those sounds. In addition, the symbol for OM suggests certain elements in the process of creation which makes it understandable why it is so widely used as the "name of God".

In any case, I stand by my original position that there isn't a "name" by which that which is behind it all calls itself. However, it is perfectly understandable why beings want to anthropomorphize the experience by adding a name to that which defies description in words.

My own mantra has an interesting history which I will share at another time. It was clearly associated with one of the branches of the primal vibration, as mentioned above, but a branch that one eventually transcends as one goes beyond the outlying branches to draw closer to the Source.

This is an excellent dialogue and what I have written in words certainly doesn't do justice to what I am trying to express since the inexpressible cannot be expressed in words. That is why the stillness is so essential and that is why some of the greatest teachers whom I have met have taught in absolute silence. By stilling the mind, one soars like an eagle into the metaphorical sky of consciousness (Jung's collective unconscious at the lower level, the Cosmic Mind, etc.) where one intuitively "knows without knowing" what is in the best interests of all in any given situation with absolutely no expectation of a return. ("Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God"; "Be still and know that I am God.")

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi, Still Waters...I may not address everything, hahah!

But a couple things...if I may...thank you for bringing up the Primal Vibration or the Primordial Vibration from which all
comes from and which permeates through everything.
Any mantra of any kind can still the mind and has a usefulness...but...where is it when you answer your bosses call.
The, let's say, True mantra would be that which never ends and always was....
The ideal focus would be the placement of our attention on the Primordial (First, original)Vibration that is the Name of God...that never ends. No?

Anything else, Om, Aum, Rama, Humso, So hung....are simply representations of that First Sound Current, the Holy Name of God.

Sat Nam can be another mantra that symbolizes the unspeakable Holy Name...it, itself just is for us as a label meaning, True Name.

I do not dispute that your experience has led you to connect with God through the Sat Nam "name",
but is it possible that you are connecting with one of the branches of the initial primal vibration
whereas others are connecting with another branch?

Just as a person may be "dad" to one and "brother" to another, it would appear that each of us
may connect to the Light in a different way ..... until One reaches what the quantum physicists call the "theoretical,
(because they can't isolate it), unified force field" behind it all.

I understand what you are saying. Let me try here...there is one 'Sound', one Word, or Vibration or one Name that is in everything.
Now ,God Himself could be represented as a Big Diamond in the Sky...1000s of facets, ok?
Someone sees a facet from the bottom right and sees a bearded man in a robe. Another from India sees a Blue boy with a flute with beads....and so on...
but all reflections are from the same Diamond that is God.
So all paths lead to the same place. Sure.
Some faster than others.


But there is still One, and the first original Primordial Vibration wouldn't that be where you would like your focus
rather than words that are 'calling' that First vibration by some human name like Yahweh or Om?
Did God manifest Himself
from this Word or Vibration as a tree and a planet and a doggy and multi Universes? Well...yeah....some believe this.

(Some believe an entirely diff scenario!! Lol)

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi, Still Waters...I may not address everything, hahah!

But a couple things...if I may...thank you for bringing up the Primal Vibration or the Primordial Vibration from which all
comes from and which permeates through everything.
Any mantra of any kind can still the mind and has a usefulness...but...where is it when you answer your bosses call.
The, let's say, True mantra would be that which never ends and always was....
The ideal focus would be the placement of our attention on the Primordial (First, original)Vibration that is the Name of God...that never ends. No?

Anything else, Om, Aum, Rama, Humso, So hung....are simply representations of that First Sound Current, the Holy Name of God.
'Sat Nam' can be another mantra that symbolizes the unspeakable Holy Name...it, itself, is just a convenience for us as a label meaning, True Name.
It is saying True Name, True Name, True Name in another language, is all. Where does that take anyone?
When the actual Name Itself is repeating over and over within you! See? It is not mental, not a thought, not in the imagination ....it is
an actual thing you feel and merges into hearing....and you end up seeing within.

I do not dispute that your experience has led you to connect with God through the Sat Nam "name",
but is it possible that you are connecting with one of the branches of the initial primal vibration
whereas others are connecting with another branch?

Just as a person may be "dad" to one and "brother" to another, it would appear that each of us
may connect to the Light in a different way ..... until One reaches what the quantum physicists call the "theoretical,
(because they can't isolate it), unified force field" behind it all.

I understand what you are saying.
Lemme take a shot at this..there is one 'Sound', one Word, or Vibration or one Name that is in everything.
Now, God Himself could be represented as a Big Diamond in the Sky...1000s of facets, ok?
Someone sees a facet from the bottom right and sees a bearded man in a robe. Another from India sees a Blue boy with a flute with beads....and so on...
but all reflections are from the same Diamond that is God.
So all paths lead to the same place. Sure.
Some faster than others.


But there is still One, and the first original Primordial Vibration wouldn't that be where you would like your focus
rather than words that are 'calling' that First vibration by some human name like Yahweh or Om?
Did God manifest Himself
from this Word or Vibration as a tree and a planet and a doggy and multi Universes? Well...yeah....some believe this.

(Some believe an entirely diff scenario!! Lol)

Glad you brought up Kirpal Singh...we could have also brought up the techniques
revealed in Kriya Yoga ...aka Paramhansa Yogananda's initiation. Self Realization Fellowship.
This is still talking about the Name of God, tho in the Judaism section....Jesus was a Jew and very
'Eastern' and knew 'Eastern things' , after all.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Hi, Still Waters...I may not address everything, hahah!

But a couple things...if I may...thank you for bringing up the Primal Vibration or the Primordial Vibration from which all
comes from and which permeates through everything.
Any mantra of any kind can still the mind and has a usefulness...but...where is it when you answer your bosses call.
The, let's say, True mantra would be that which never ends and always was....
The ideal focus would be the placement of our attention on the Primordial (First, original)Vibration that is the Name of God...that never ends. No?

Anything else, Om, Aum, Rama, Humso, So hung....are simply representations of that First Sound Current, the Holy Name of God.
'Sat Nam' can be another mantra that symbolizes the unspeakable Holy Name...it, itself, is just a convenience for us as a label meaning, True Name.
It is saying True Name, True Name, True Name in another language, is all. Where does that take anyone?
When the actual Name Itself is repeating over and over within you! See? It is not mental, not a thought, not in the imagination ....it is
an actual thing you feel and merges into hearing....and you end up seeing within.

First of all, we are virtually in COMPLETE agreement regarding everything you just wrote. I am responding in two separate posts due to the length of your post and also due to the importance of giving concentrated attention to each of the two parts of your post.

You wrote, "The ideal focus would be the placement of our attention on the Primordial (First, original)Vibration that is the Name of God...that never ends. No?" ABSOLUTELY YES ! That primordial vibration .... that never ends ... is EXACTLY where the ideal focus should be placed.

In addition, you articulated what I meant better than I did when you wrote: "Anything else, Om, Aum, Rama, Humso, So hung....are simply representations of that First Sound Current." They are indeed "simply representations" and, as I wrote, they fade into the background eventually as one attunes more and more to the celestial Primal Vibration. EXACTLY. Nonetheless, they can continue to serve as a gateway to the Primal Vibration as one shifts attention back after one "answers the bosses' call" so to speak as you comically but accurately pointed out. I use my OM-based mantra in particular as the beginning (not the end) of the process of shifting attention back to the Primal Vibration after the "bosses' call".

Similarly, as you duly noted, Sat Nam "symbolizes the Holy Name". Sat Nam could be interpreted as True Name, True Name. My impression is that "Sat" means "Truth" and Nam is often a shortened form of "Namah" as in "Salutations" or "Hail". I interpret Sat Nam as "Salutations to Truth" or "Whose name is Truth" but our differences on this particular translation are so minor that they are almost not worth mentioning. I have always felt that God is Truth --- that which is (Sat) --- and, when one realizes that God is all that is, universal LOVE manifests quite naturally. Hence, one can also say the oft-repeated expression that God is Love or that God is All in All. At that point, it all comes forth quite naturally .... and sincerely (not just words).

That was a beautiful post and I woke up this morning hoping that I would see a response from you on this subject. You most assuredly did not disappoint.

Salutations to Miss Hepburn. Namah Miss Hepburn.