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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 31-07-2020, 03:48 AM
Uday_Advaita Uday_Advaita is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
Experiences of advanced guides don't match with this narrative of enlightenment.
Hello Hitesh
Yes. You are absolutely right
The experiences of the Masters like, Raman Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sadhguru, and many others have been widely different. This mindbody has had a few glimpses so far. The teaching that resonates with my experience will be my guide. I can speak only on that basis.
If it interests you, I can recommend a book "Enlightened Living" by Ramesh Balsekar.
Namaskar
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  #12  
Old 31-07-2020, 07:54 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: West Wales. u.k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
Experiences of advanced guides don't match with this narrative of enlightenment.


The Buddhist teaching of no doer is very clear and yet traditional Advaita asserts that there is someone who can become enlightened, hence practise. Alternatively Neo Advaita mirrors the Buddhist teaching of no doer and asserts that there is no such thing as personal enlightenment.

It is not surprising that no doer is less popular bearing in mind the liking for the idea of personal empowerment, which supports the idea of mind insisting on and arranging that empowerment.
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  #13  
Old 31-07-2020, 09:49 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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What exactly is the doer? The more conscious I become of my life source I realize that I am not the doer. All I do is open and close, like breathing in and then letting it out. Nothing can come in unless we invite it in.

The doer are the forces, spirits, etc., that we invite into our lives. For example, a person who is drunk on alcohol; what is the doer in this case; the person or the alcohol? We are as puppets, or servants, to whatever we invite into our lives. We can invite love into our lives and let that be the doer. Some invite hate into their lives and allow that to be the doer.

At our core we are crystal clear transparent beings, but human beings invite things into their lives that have the potential to color and cloud that clarity. Speaking only for myself; happiness comes when I empty myself and just sit with that wide open presence of clarity, a clarity which the human mind might call “nothingness.” When I am not doing anything but being.

True happiness has a presence all its’ own; it is and infectious presence that can bring joy for no reason whatsoever. Happiness is inherent in the fabric of our deeper being, it is our truest nature. Like birds singing. I don’t think we need to do anything to be happy. Happiness often comes to me when I appreciate the simplicity of life.
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  #14  
Old 31-07-2020, 07:48 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Golden Bay, New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
The Buddhist teaching of no doer is very clear and yet traditional Advaita asserts that there is someone who can become enlightened, hence practise. Alternatively Neo Advaita mirrors the Buddhist teaching of no doer and asserts that there is no such thing as personal enlightenment.

It is not surprising that no doer is less popular bearing in mind the liking for the idea of personal empowerment, which supports the idea of mind insisting on and arranging that empowerment.

This is perhaps over-simplistic. Buddhists may teach that there is no doer, yet Buddhism is all about practice. And over the centuries they have developed a wide variety of practices.

And does traditional Advaita really teach that there is someone who can become enlightened? Yes, there is a moment of realisation where the individual realises that they are the Self, but that realisation includes the recognition that there is no separate personal "I".

Neo-Advaita makes many claims, but all the Neo-Advaita teachers seem to have had a moment of realisation, which is why they then began teaching. Followers of Neo-Advaita may say that there is nothing to do, but where is their moment of realisation?

Stephan Bodian addresses this in Wake Up Now, in a section where he looks at common misunderstandings of enlightenment:

Myth 7: You're already enlightened so why bother seeking?

As the flip side to this addiction to struggle and attainment, this laissez-faire approach to awakening places you outside the gateless gate ... Yes, you're already enlightened, but until this enlightenment dawns in the particular body-mind it's just an abstract concept with little power to relieve your suffering and transform your experience of reality, which is the whole point of the awakening process. Paradoxically, the separate self can never become enlightened, yet genuine enlightenment must take root and blossom there.


Peace
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  #15  
Old 01-08-2020, 11:14 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: West Wales. u.k
Posts: 1,002
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
This is perhaps over-simplistic. Buddhists may teach that there is no doer, yet Buddhism is all about practice. And over the centuries they have developed a wide variety of practices.

And does traditional Advaita really teach that there is someone who can become enlightened? Yes, there is a moment of realisation where the individual realises that they are the Self, but that realisation includes the recognition that there is no separate personal "I".

Neo-Advaita makes many claims, but all the Neo-Advaita teachers seem to have had a moment of realisation, which is why they then began teaching. Followers of Neo-Advaita may say that there is nothing to do, but where is their moment of realisation?

Stephan Bodian addresses this in Wake Up Now, in a section where he looks at common misunderstandings of enlightenment:

Myth 7: You're already enlightened so why bother seeking?

As the flip side to this addiction to struggle and attainment, this laissez-faire approach to awakening places you outside the gateless gate ... Yes, you're already enlightened, but until this enlightenment dawns in the particular body-mind it's just an abstract concept with little power to relieve your suffering and transform your experience of reality, which is the whole point of the awakening process. Paradoxically, the separate self can never become enlightened, yet genuine enlightenment must take root and blossom there.


Peace
Yes the argument against nothing required is always that for this to be seen there needs to be realization. But what is always over looked is that it is already Oneness not realizing so no increase in connection to Oneness is achieved by realizing.
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  #16  
Old 01-08-2020, 11:14 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: West Wales. u.k
Posts: 1,002
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
This is perhaps over-simplistic. Buddhists may teach that there is no doer, yet Buddhism is all about practice. And over the centuries they have developed a wide variety of practices.

And does traditional Advaita really teach that there is someone who can become enlightened? Yes, there is a moment of realisation where the individual realises that they are the Self, but that realisation includes the recognition that there is no separate personal "I".

Neo-Advaita makes many claims, but all the Neo-Advaita teachers seem to have had a moment of realisation, which is why they then began teaching. Followers of Neo-Advaita may say that there is nothing to do, but where is their moment of realisation?

Stephan Bodian addresses this in Wake Up Now, in a section where he looks at common misunderstandings of enlightenment:

Myth 7: You're already enlightened so why bother seeking?

As the flip side to this addiction to struggle and attainment, this laissez-faire approach to awakening places you outside the gateless gate ... Yes, you're already enlightened, but until this enlightenment dawns in the particular body-mind it's just an abstract concept with little power to relieve your suffering and transform your experience of reality, which is the whole point of the awakening process. Paradoxically, the separate self can never become enlightened, yet genuine enlightenment must take root and blossom there.


Peace
Yes the argument against nothing required is always that for this to be seen there needs to be realization. But what is always over looked is that it is already Oneness not realizing so no increase in connection to Oneness is achieved by realizing.
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  #17  
Old 01-08-2020, 12:48 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
To re-frame this in a different paradigm, we might say that the illusion of doing creates the illusion of causing what is happening.

From modern physics we can look at the hypothesis of the Block Universe. Here past, present, and future all simply exist and are equally real as part of the present moment. Also from physics we can look at the hypothesis of the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Here all possible outcomes of the so called 'collapse' of the quantum wave, actually do happen, each branching into a separate 'future'. Combining the two we have a reality in which all possible events, past, present, or future, including all possible outcomes, eternally have, do, and will exist. Some may see the echoes of the Akashic Records here.

In this version of reality, in a theory some have called the Search Light theory. Conscious awareness does not cause the events, as they already exist. Instead, consciousness navigates through the matrix of existing events choosing which branch it will become aware of at each junction along the way. And so it does become a matter of accepting. Consciousness builds the story it will experiences as it chooses which outcome, which branch of the ever branching universe, it will accept and become aware of.

We say I chose to do that, yet that, and every version of doing that could be done, is already done. Choice is a matter of which we will accept and experience as our next present moment of reality, and that is what we will become aware of as what is happening.

When one wishes to control the flow of water as it moves downhill in response to gravity, one does not stand in front of it and push the water here or there. The water will eventually overcome anything blocking its path, we must accept this fact. Instead, one creates a path of least resistance for the water in the direction one wishes to see it flow. One seeks to align the waters preferred path with ones own preferred path.

The flow of events that we become aware of as our experience of life, are those events that we create a path for by accepting them into our conscious awareness. We engage life by yielding to that which we wish, accepting and allowing it in, rather than resisting that which we do not, trying to block its way, and being overwhelmed by it.

The way of the Tao is like that of water. The highest harmony results when ones own path aligns with the way of the Tao. Then one does through non-doing, knowing that nothing is left undone.
.
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  #18  
Old 01-08-2020, 03:24 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Location: West Wales. u.k
Posts: 1,002
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
To re-frame this in a different paradigm, we might say that the illusion of doing creates the illusion of causing what is happening.

From modern physics we can look at the hypothesis of the Block Universe. Here past, present, and future all simply exist and are equally real as part of the present moment. Also from physics we can look at the hypothesis of the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Here all possible outcomes of the so called 'collapse' of the quantum wave, actually do happen, each branching into a separate 'future'. Combining the two we have a reality in which all possible events, past, present, or future, including all possible outcomes, eternally have, do, and will exist. Some may see the echoes of the Akashic Records here.

In this version of reality, in a theory some have called the Search Light theory. Conscious awareness does not cause the events, as they already exist. Instead, consciousness navigates through the matrix of existing events choosing which branch it will become aware of at each junction along the way. And so it does become a matter of accepting. Consciousness builds the story it will experiences as it chooses which outcome, which branch of the ever branching universe, it will accept and become aware of.

We say I chose to do that, yet that, and every version of doing that could be done, is already done. Choice is a matter of which we will accept and experience as our next present moment of reality, and that is what we will become aware of as what is happening.

When one wishes to control the flow of water as it moves downhill in response to gravity, one does not stand in front of it and push the water here or there. The water will eventually overcome anything blocking its path, we must accept this fact. Instead, one creates a path of least resistance for the water in the direction one wishes to see it flow. One seeks to align the waters preferred path with ones own preferred path.

The flow of events that we become aware of as our experience of life, are those events that we create a path for by accepting them into our conscious awareness. We engage life by yielding to that which we wish, accepting and allowing it in, rather than resisting that which we do not, trying to block its way, and being overwhelmed by it.

The way of the Tao is like that of water. The highest harmony results when ones own path aligns with the way of the Tao. Then one does through non-doing, knowing that nothing is left undone.
.

There is no doubt that events appear to happen. Another suggestion about what determines these events is the concept of an automatic infinate balancing system, perhaps illustrated by the Yin/yang symbol, which is built into the manifestation, without which there would be no manifestation. Does anyone know the origin of this theory? We have an example of balance locally (On this Planet) with symbiosis.
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  #19  
Old 01-08-2020, 06:21 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
There is no doubt that events appear to happen. Another suggestion about what determines these events is the concept of an automatic infinate balancing system, perhaps illustrated by the Yin/yang symbol, which is built into the manifestation, without which there would be no manifestation. Does anyone know the origin of this theory? We have an example of balance locally (On this Planet) with symbiosis.

Don't know. Taoism is pretty old but I don't know if the Yin/Yang symbol arose from it or predated it. As far as the theory of balancing being necessary for manifestation, you may have answered the question of its inspiration with your last sentence. All of ecology, including symbiosis, requires a balancing of the relationships between the organisms that make it up, as well as with the environment that underlies it. Populations that get too far out of balance will eventually end up growing to a point where they exceed the carrying capacity of their local environment and will eventually exhaust the resources and end up crashing. If they crash hard enough they may even become extinct. Humanity is busy doing this at the moment but delaying the inevitable with technologies to extract more and more from the resources so its population can keep on growing for a while longer.

Anyway, Taoism is known for its appreciation and reverence for nature and its ways and their hidden meanings. So it is not too surprising that it would include a symbol that represents balance, the circular nature of life, and the interdependence of things, which the Yin/Yang symbol does quite nicely.

.
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  #20  
Old 01-08-2020, 08:45 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Golden Bay, New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Yes the argument against nothing required is always that for this to be seen there needs to be realization. But what is always over looked is that it is already Oneness not realizing so no increase in connection to Oneness is achieved by realizing.

I repeat Stephan Bodian's words:

... until this enlightenment dawns in the particular body-mind it's just an abstract concept with little power to relieve your suffering and transform your experience of reality, which is the whole point of the awakening process.

Saying that it is already Oneness not realising so realisation does not increase connection to Oneness is an intellectual concept, which may satisfy some people. The reality of such a realisation is that there is now a conscious connection to Oneness, which removes the need for all intellectual concepts.

The reason why all these Neo-Advaita teachers are out there teaching is because they had such a realisation. Without this realisation they would not be teaching.

Peace
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