THE GREATEST and 2ND COMMANDMENT

[sky]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Why did Buddha speak numerous times that if a person did certain things, they could no longer associate and in many cases, were 'caste out'? Is that not a form of punishment?

Can you point out the Sutta/Sutra please.... then I can discuss it..




But we are talking about the 1st + 2nd Command-ments are we not....

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

BigJohn,

The difficulty presented comes from understanding vs. 37..."Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind". We need to unravel exactly what this implies. How does one instruct their heart and soul to do anything ? IMO it means that we must make all 3 of these elements(heart, soul, mind) to work in conjunction with each other. It would seem that for most of us that the first effort should be focused on the mind. This seems to be the first and most logical starting point because we have familiarity with our minds.

Romans 12:2,,,,,"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind".....this tells us that we can be transformed by the renewing of our minds......i.e. that it is possible. Lyrics from 2 different songs come to mind....."Heart over mind, worried all the time" and …."My heart tells me stay but my pride tells me go". Both of these songs indicate that a conflict can exist between heart and mind. These need to be brought into harmony to be able to follow the commandment of Jesus. IMO we experience emotions(notably love) with our hearts and intuition comes from the heart. We say often...."trust your heart" which can also be understood as "trust your intuitions". This is the source of genuine knowledge....that which we are most sure of, etc. But if the heart is hardened we are denied access to intuition and true knowledge. If the mind is not transformed then the heart cannot be informed. As the one song says...(my heart tells me stay but my pride tells me go)…..our 'pride' is our mind displaying the ego. We are allowing faulty logic from our mind to establish dominance over our heart(the source of emotions and intuition).

Using and working with our mind we can remember that we are intended to be one with God and that we are a reflection of God. If this is true for us individually then it is likewise true for everyone else. We must accept that everyone else is also a reflection of God. It is with this realization that love of our neighbor is completely logical and necessary...….indeed it is the only conclusion that we can arrive at. When you see your neighbor you are seeing God in His incarnation. Perhaps one cannot see God in his neighbor but God knows that He has given your neighbor the same potential to become his fullest Self just as He has given it to you.

Once we transform our minds in this way we can bring these elements(heart, soul and mind) into the harmony that is intended and allows us to love God and neighbor as Jesus commanded.

I realize that I neglected 'soul' in this answer but I wished for brevity and discussing the role of soul would complicate and greatly lengthen my response.

As always, wisdom in your Post, really enjoyed it.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

BigJohn,

Speaking of Buddha in relation to the commandments of Jesus sounds like syncretism to me....:) Not quite sure is this is kosher...:)

I know what it's all about

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Molearner

BigJohn,

The difficulty presented comes from understanding vs. 37..."Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind". We need to unravel exactly what this implies. How does one instruct their heart and soul to do anything ? IMO it means that we must make all 3 of these elements(heart, soul, mind) to work in conjunction with each other. It would seem that for most of us that the first effort should be focused on the mind. This seems to be the first and most logical starting point because we have familiarity with our minds.

Romans 12:2,,,,,"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind".....this tells us that we can be transformed by the renewing of our minds......i.e. that it is possible. Lyrics from 2 different songs come to mind....."Heart over mind, worried all the time" and …."My heart tells me stay but my pride tells me go". Both of these songs indicate that a conflict can exist between heart and mind. These need to be brought into harmony to be able to follow the commandment of Jesus. IMO we experience emotions(notably love) with our hearts and intuition comes from the heart. We say often...."trust your heart" which can also be understood as "trust your intuitions". This is the source of genuine knowledge....that which we are most sure of, etc. But if the heart is hardened we are denied access to intuition and true knowledge. If the mind is not transformed then the heart cannot be informed. As the one song says...(my heart tells me stay but my pride tells me go)…..our 'pride' is our mind displaying the ego. We are allowing faulty logic from our mind to establish dominance over our heart(the source of emotions and intuition).

Using and working with our mind we can remember that we are intended to be one with God and that we are a reflection of God. If this is true for us individually then it is likewise true for everyone else. We must accept that everyone else is also a reflection of God. It is with this realization that love of our neighbor is completely logical and necessary...….indeed it is the only conclusion that we can arrive at. When you see your neighbor you are seeing God in His incarnation. Perhaps one cannot see God in his neighbor but God knows that He has given your neighbor the same potential to become his fullest Self just as He has given it to you.

Once we transform our minds in this way we can bring these elements(heart, soul and mind) into the harmony that is intended and allows us to love God and neighbor as Jesus commanded.

I realize that I neglected 'soul' in this answer but I wished for brevity and discussing the role of soul would complicate and greatly lengthen my response.

You are right. It would have to take effort.

Originally Posted by sky123

There will be no punishment

Don't kid yourself!! Listen up you! You will love God and your neighbor (God more though) or Jesus will come back and beat some compassion into you.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Why did Buddha speak numerous times that if a person did certain things, they could no longer associate and in many cases, were 'caste out'? Is that not a form of punishment?

Originally Posted by sky123

Can you point out the Sutta/Sutra please.... then I can discuss it.

From the Bhikkhu Pāṭimokkha: The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline.

Look under Pārājika: Rules entailing expulsion from the Sangha (Defeat)

1. reads:

Should any bhikkhu — participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness — engage in sexual intercourse, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

I know of one bhikkhus who was defeated and was no longer in affiliation. The bhikkhus was in a foreign country and had no money....... To me, this was a form of punishment, would you not agree?


This is only one of many available examples.

[sky]

[quote=BigJohn]From the Bhikkhu Pāṭimokkha: The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline.

Look under Pārājika: Rules entailing expulsion from the Sangha (Defeat)

1. reads:

Should any bhikkhu — participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness — engage in sexual intercourse, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

I know of one bhikkhus who was defeated and was no longer in affiliation. The bhikkhus was in a foreign country and had no money....... To me, this was a form of punishment, would you not agree?



Thank you...
Now if you read the WHOLE article it says in various places ' Penalty ' which is NOT a punishment

A PENALTY is something given out for not fulfilling some condition in a written or verbal agreement....

A PUNISHMENT is a deterrent against behavior that is against the rules. It is not something that is agreed to, it is something imposed upon you.

See the difference ..... If you don't practice the 1st & 2nd Command-ments, who will punish you?

[sky]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Don't kid yourself!! Listen up you! You will love God and your neighbor (God more though) or Jesus will come back and beat some compassion into you.

I am listening but what i'm hearing doesn't make sense

[BigJohn]

[quote=sky123]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

From the Bhikkhu Pāṭimokkha: The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline.

Look under Pārājika: Rules entailing expulsion from the Sangha (Defeat)

1. reads:

Should any bhikkhu — participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness — engage in sexual intercourse, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

I know of one bhikkhus who was defeated and was no longer in affiliation. The bhikkhus was in a foreign country and had no money....... To me, this was a form of punishment, would you not agree?



Thank you...
Now if you read the WHOLE article it says in various places ' Penalty ' which is NOT a punishment

A PENALTY is something given out for not fulfilling some condition in a written or verbal agreement....

A PUNISHMENT is a deterrent against behavior that is against the rules. It is not something that is agreed to, it is something imposed upon you.

See the difference .....

NOTE: The information I wrote did not come from an article. It came directly from what Buddha taught.

As for what you wrote, can you site the various places in this teaching that actually says: "'Penalty ' which is NOT a punishment"? I have previously read entirely this teaching and the word "Penalty" can not be found by me in that teaching!



"What do you think "defeated and was no longer in affiliation" is all about? As I mentioned, I know of a bhikkhus who was defeated and was no longer in affiliation. The bhikkhus was in a foreign country and had no money....... To me, this was a form of punishment, would you not agree?



The bhikkhus was expelled from his 'home'. Being in a foreign country and not having money some would say this was harsh and a form of punishment.


If you were kicked out of your home, broke and in a foreign country, would you look upon that action as a form of punishment?

[sky]

[quote=BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky123

NOTE: The information I wrote did not come from an article. It came directly from what Buddha taught.

As for what you wrote, can you site the various places in this teaching that actually says: "'Penalty ' which is NOT a punishment"? I have previously read entirely this teaching and the word "Penalty" can not be found by me in that teaching!



"What do you think "defeated and was no longer in affiliation" is all about? As I mentioned, I know of a bhikkhus who was defeated and was no longer in affiliation. The bhikkhus was in a foreign country and had no money....... To me, this was a form of punishment, would you not agree?



The bhikkhus was expelled from his 'home'. Being in a foreign country and not having money some would say this was harsh and a form of punishment.


If you were kicked out of your home, broke and in a foreign country, would you look upon that action as a form of punishment?

A PUNISHMENT is a deterrent against behavior that is against the rules. It is not something that is agreed to, it is something imposed upon you.

Who will punish you if you don't follow the 1st & 2nd Command-ments ?