Does one environment affect/forms ones beliefs?

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

So if you had the power, the ultimate say, you'd outright ban organized religion, is that correct? How about expression of secularism and atheism, or is that okay?

How about publishing and selling of religious scripture? Icons? How does one practice their beliefs if there's no organization behind them?

You don't even realize how dogmatic you are in your beliefs, more dogmatic than most religiously inclined people.

A secular society doesn't have to ban religion. You keep it to the private sphere. Religions offer false narratives that can't be proven, which is why they should not have centralized power. They [seek to] institutionalize subjective experiences as infallible truth.

We all start religion-free, an empty page. Religious beliefs are forced upon people or adopted. Why should the state [and the rest of us through tax money] finance or support your personal beliefs and practices? We all pay so people can organize their belief systems? That makes no sense to me.

You can ''practice'' your beliefs by yourself, at home, or with other people in some place. It is your responsibility if you believe in gods, angels and other things, it's not my responsibility, or that of the state..

[Sunshine111]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hello Sunshine11,

I relate to much of what you present.

Will add it also takes a willingness to change and/or adjust.

True if not fully aware of something, then can one change it or understand it?

Through the years and will add growing older gained insight and more secure with in myself.

Some of the growth and awareness is asking myself why do I believe it? Meaning, is it something that was told to me or convinced myself as being or is it something experienced and through this becomes a knowing a sorts?

Thank you for sharing

Hi Moonglow,

You are very welcome.

True about the willingness to change. I will add that nobody can change anything unless they really want to.

Yes, that is the beauty of growing older. I definitely enjoy the level of my emotional maturity, less trouble, fewer problems, better life.

Yes, the question "why do I believe this" and "how this came about" were also used by me when questioning my beliefs abd have been extremely helpful.

Basically, this is what comes down to, another questioning their beliefs and beliefs are related or constitute the self or are part of and constitutes who we are.

Therefore, what will be questioned is the self or what constitutes the self and if someone is fixated on and too rigid in them or does not like change or to be questioned, in my opinion, is an almost impossible task to take place, if not possible at all.

I am just glad that, I am flexible like a chewing gum.

Originally Posted by Altair

A secular society doesn't have to ban religion. You keep it to the private sphere. Religions offer false narratives that can't be proven, which is why they should not have centralized power. They [seek to] institutionalize subjective experiences as infallible truth.

We all start religion-free, an empty page. Religious beliefs are forced upon people or adopted. Why should the state [and the rest of us through tax money] finance or support your personal beliefs and practices? We all pay so people can organize their belief systems? That makes no sense to me.

You can ''practice'' your beliefs by yourself, at home, or with other people in some place. It is your responsibility if you believe in gods, angels and other things, it's not my responsibility, or that of the state..

By your own standards shouldn't you keep your spiritual preferences a private matter and not impose them on others?

By the way, I don't support theocracy either, but that's a long way from the state allowing free exercise and expression of religion. Otherwise we end up with suppression like that of the Soviet Union or Maoist China. Maybe that's why so many Chinese are atheist. Threat of re-education and death are potent motivators.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Altair

To me it's really the practice and its outcome that matter, not the belief. When I started participating in yoga and meditation groups I was always eager to know what other people experienced and was very open to sharing what I experienced. After a while I realized it's not really a helpful thing to do, because you are influencing each other's experiences and making pointless interpretations. One person's angel is another person's demon. Some people will interpret fear during meditation as ''ego'', others will simply accept that it's a learning curve that doesn't deserve to be labelled with sinister terms..

''What was said was for you, and for you alone'' ~ https://youtu.be/EUN1ClT9i9w?t=282

People fight and make wars over subjective experiences. They are attached to the content of said experience, they see a god, a holy man, an angel.. and they demand others must believe them. Worse yet are those who are influenced by religious books and culture because then they will find others who had a similar experience and feel justified that it's a 'truth', not knowing that it is merely their mind that created the content of the experience.

I really don't think there's a place for religious beliefs in society at large. People can all benefit from spiritual practices, and hopefully that becomes mainstream, but people can keep the content of all manner of beings, figures, and prophecies and what not to themselves.. unless people are specifically interested.

When Religion gets marketed for profit, political for power, and institutionalized for control, this to me when it is misused.

History and current events are littered with examples showing such.

To me, religion is "spiritual teaching". It is expressed in many ways. I am not familiar with all the practices out there, so to say do away with religion in society, feell is a bit extreme. Just my opion mind you and not directed at you personally.

Can agree religious practice is a personal thing. Most people I have met and continue to keep it that way.

From various conversations I have had with others it comes off to me that having a faith in something gives one a center. Can also be a way to express ones connection and gratitude. Yes, may not be true for all, but find this to be a general theme. It was that way when I was a church going guy, but now found other ways to create these things with in my life.

Brings my thoughts back to asking why someone is doing what he/she is doing.
Which feel is for each individual to figure out. It does help, at times, to have another bring to my attention what I may be doing that may seem to be unhealthy or stubborn. Up to me as to how I interpret the information and use it or not.

This for me can be applied to anything in life in regards to the interactions I have with others, religion included.

Yes, the mind can create "illusions" (for lack of better terms). It can also process information to create ways to adjust and cope with life.

There is also things that are marketed with a religious/spiritual implications.
Yoga for example. How many so called Yoga classes actually teach the tenants of Yoga. Most that I have attended were more like exercise classes with a bit of meditation thrown in.

There are misuse of religious practices. Not only conversion of children before they are able to make his/her own decisions (as experienced by my upbringing), but misuse of information about the practices and thier intentions as well.

My parents were taught and held onto the belief that the church gave one grace. They also walked the talk, not by trying to convert others but by being respectful and kind to others. They pretty much kept their faith to themselves, but had my siblings and I attend church and follow the faith.

Later in life realized I did not agree with the politics of the church and was going because believed was pleasing my parents. I left the church, but some of the basic teachings/message I still relate to.

A long post, but you brought up so interesting points.

I feel we do and can learn from each other. It may depend on how the information is conveyed, understood, and used, IMO.

Brings to mind what has been told to me; Don't mix religion with politics.

Yes, it is a personal thing.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Sunshine111

Hi Moonglow,

You are very welcome.

True about the willingness to change. I will add that nobody can change anything unless they really want to.

Yes, that is the beauty of growing older. I definitely enjoy the level of my emotional maturity, less trouble, fewer problems, better life.

Yes, the question "why do I believe this" and "how this came about" were also used by me when questioning my beliefs abd have been extremely helpful.

Basically, this is what comes down to, another questioning their beliefs and beliefs are related or constitute the self or are part of and constitutes who we are.

Therefore, what will be questioned is the self or what constitutes the self and if someone is fixated on and too rigid in them or does not like change or to be questioned, in my opinion, is an almost impossible task to take place, if not possible at all.

I am just glad that, I am flexible like a chewing gum.

Hi Sushine11,

"Flexable like chewing gum",lol

For me at times,it takes chewing it over in order to soften it up, lol.

That's life, isn't it? Learn as we go along.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

To me, religion is "spiritual teaching". It is expressed in many ways. I am not familiar with all the practices out there, so to say do away with religion in society, feell is a bit extreme. Just my opion mind you and not directed at you personally. Can agree religious practice is a personal thing. Most people I have met and continue to keep it that way.

Yes, religious beliefs are a personal matter. Problems arise when people use subjective experiences as infallible truths. Me seeing a tooth fairy or any kind of god does not give me moral support to build a religion around it and demand/expect others to follow me, or ask the state to spend tax money on my religion. In the process of doing this I am under the illusion that my subjective experience are somehow relevant to everyone else, when as a matter of fact, they are not (!).

Just as Morpheus says.. ''What was said is for you, and for you alone''...

Religious beliefs and how they influence people's ''experiences'' is a web of illusion in and of itself. Any kind of spiritual group or community should, IMO, simply focus on the practices, help others find peace within, and not feed people with beliefs in dependency on this or that religious figurehead or utopia.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

There is also things that are marketed with a religious/spiritual implications. Yoga for example. How many so called Yoga classes actually teach the tenants of Yoga. Most that I have attended were more like exercise classes with a bit of meditation thrown in.

It's what you make of it that matters. Doing some asanas with a bit of meditation is just that, focussing on specific practices itself. There's no necessity to spend time on visualizing angels, preach belief in this or that Hindu god. The community should focus on the practice, the individual can add gods or angels when doing the practice at home. Influencing other people's experiences by basically forcing them to visualize Krishna or pray to Allah during a spiritual practice is not a sound practice. It is a biased practice that turns mindful practice into religion.

No issues whatsoever if you do that at home, but dragging others into it misses the point of, and deviates from the practice.

I have been to multiple spiritual groups, and I'm increasingly mindful about this, and try to avoid teachers with religious agendas. I like meditation groups where you can practice silence and avoid discussions. It reduces inauthentic experiences and it allows you to practice modesty.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Brings to mind what has been told to me; Don't mix religion with politics.

Yes, it is a personal thing.

Yupz..
Interesting story, Moonglow. Thanks for sharing.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Altair

Yes, religious beliefs are a personal matter. Problems arise when people use subjective experiences as infallible truths. Me seeing a tooth fairy or any kind of god does not give me moral support to build a religion around it and demand/expect others to follow me, or ask the state to spend tax money on my religion. In the process of doing this I am under the illusion that my subjective experience are somehow relevant to everyone else, when as a matter of fact, they are not (!).

Just as Morpheus says.. ''What was said is for you, and for you alone''...

Religious beliefs and how they influence people's ''experiences'' is a web of illusion in and of itself. Any kind of spiritual group or community should, IMO, simply focus on the practices, help others find peace within, and not feed people with beliefs in dependency on this or that religious figurehead or utopia.




It's what you make of it that matters. Doing some asanas with a bit of meditation is just that, focussing on specific practices itself. There's no necessity to spend time on visualizing angels, preach belief in this or that Hindu god. The community should focus on the practice, the individual can add gods or angels when doing the practice at home. Influencing other people's experiences by basically forcing them to visualize Krishna or pray to Allah during a spiritual practice is not a sound practice. It is a biased practice that turns mindful practice into religion.

No issues whatsoever if you do that at home, but dragging others into it misses the point of, and deviates from the practice.

I have been to multiple spiritual groups, and I'm increasingly mindful about this, and try to avoid teachers with religious agendas. I like meditation groups where you can practice silence and avoid discussions. It reduces inauthentic experiences and it allows you to practice modesty.



Yupz..
Interesting story, Moonglow. Thanks for sharing.

Hi Altair,

Thank you for sharing as well.

You bring up some good points to consider.

How one projects belief(s) upon another and/or group and how one may come to understand or accept or not the information.

My example of Yoga was illustrating for myself how practices can get over marketed. Some can get away from or deminished the intent of the original practice.

Can go along with if it work for the individual and brings benefits to them, then does it really matter what it is called? That, yes, it also seems to be for what the experience brings to my life, more then what may be dictated as to what it "should" bring.

Humans in general are social beings. Most I have come across and myself included, like the feeling of being a part of something.

Some may find it through religious practices, others through communing with nature.

I also feel respecting each other is important. This for me includes not forcing oneself upon another. Believe at the core most desire to be respected in some way and to be able to have thier say as well.

You bring to mind; It has come to me that it is about the message and not so much about the messagers. However it may come.

How these get understood seem to vary according to each person, IMO.
Can find common ground with others, but each seem to have his/her own take on it. In this way can understand beliefs as being subjective. This for me makes life interesting.

Yes, some things are for me and no one else.

[Sunshine111]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Sushine11,

"Flexable like chewing gum",lol

For me at times,it takes chewing it over in order to soften it up, lol.

That's life, isn't it? Learn as we go along.

Lol, lol can't stop laughing because when I read your message about having to chew it over and over in order to soften it , I was also reminded of a natural chewing gum that no matter how much you chew it, it does not soften.

Always end up hurting my jaws instead

Imagine the chewing gum that after a few times you chew it, it stretches out about 1 meter if not more than this.

That's the one I meant .

On a serious note now, yes, we learn to be our true selves

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Sunshine111

Lol, lol can't stop laughing because when I read your message about having to chew it over and over in order to soften it , I was also reminded of a natural chewing gum that no matter how much you chew it, it does not soften.

Always end up hurting my jaws instead

Imagine the chewing gum that after a few times you chew it, it stretches out about 1 meter if not more than this.

That's the one I meant .

On a serious note now, yes, we learn to be our true selves

Glad you found the humor in it.

That is also part of the fun, to not not take it so seriously all the time.

Laughter is a great healer.

Thank you for the lift.

[Sunshine111]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Glad you found the humor in it.

That is also part of the fun, to not not take it so seriously all the time.

Laughter is a great healer.

Thank you for the lift.

And, a great stress buster/reliever as well.

Thanks for making me laugh , I feel I've just gained 10 years more of life.

What's a life without fun in it?!.