Sin Atonement

[Amilius777]

I don't like the idea of "sin" atonement and I don't expect any thoughtful, intelligent, rational person to believe such a thing.

I didn't want to post this on the Christian forum because of too much backlash.

How can someone make sense of "sin" atonement as seen in Bible? Why would Jesus take up such a responsibility to suffer such a terrible death and leave us to be irresponsible and continue to do as we want.

What I find ironic in the Old Testament is that the prophets could only pay for other people's sins if they themselves "identified" with the tribe. Meaning the prophet was not perfect. The prophet had a connection to God or "The Spirit" but the prophet was not perfect. Usually a lamb and goat was used to take away the sins of the people by the high priests when prophets and kings were not seen.

Jesus is seen as the "lamb of God" who is pure and innocent. But why would such a sacrifice be needed? In what way did Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection transform the world?


First off what is Sin? Sin is Separation. Separated from the Source, or living by the separate self alone. Once we separate and regress against the Harmony we become afraid and choose fear and self-awareness over Love and Pure Awareness. We are suppose to be ourselves and yet at-one with the Source as universal and individual.

The only way one can return to the Source is by reuniting in spirit and action.

Jesus' sacrifice as a way of automatic salvation is wrong, false, and immoral. Instead Jesus' sacrifice is an example of one who reunites back with the Source and separation (Sin) ends. The lamb, the relatively good self-image is given up for the greater True self- the Christ. Thus Jesus becomes Son of God in his giving up, and sin (separation) ends.

Bible says- "Jesus was everything yet did not sin". Christianity- "Jesus was sinless and never did anything wrong". True Jesus was relativity good, innocent, and pure of heart person. He chose good over evil. But Jesus, the soul individual has passed into separation in his past. Whether a previous incarnation or past soul-history, Jesus at one time separated from the Source as we all did. Jesus' payment on the cross is not only an atonement for all to follow to be liberated, but his own payment to reach perfection.

I know I just said something quite heretical but it is true. Because that is how karma works. One must pay their own way in order to learn from their mistakes. "Though he were the Son, learned obedience through suffering".

Jesus in his past separated from the Source. When he incarnated as Jesus for his final development, he had to give up his separation. Jesus overcame sin in himself. Whether we want to accept it or not that is how the world works.

Paying your own Karma is a glorifying thing and shows how universal laws and perfect and just and how justice is important even if we have to pay up as well. It is a good thing that there is justice.

Not everyone's karma is to literally die on a cross. But we all need to metaphysically die in crucifixion. Let the false self, and limited consciousness die out, and let the Christ-consciousness be born. This is to be reborn. The only reason why Jesus' lower self death was so intense and literal is because he took up the mantle of messiah. He crucified his limited self in the past when he learned under John the Baptist- his mentor. He didn't need to go through the Crucifixion literally. But he chose to do this as an example and meditation for future generations to understand.

Basically believing and studying Jesus' actual crucifixion is elementary religious level. We start here and see this, acknowledge it, but must move on. It was a terrible event in which a Man chose to die to expose a fundamental Truth and reach perfection for himself and others. But what is more important is the internal crucifixion we all will take. Then the real studying and learning begins.

Then we realize that Jesus truly crucified sin in himself by healing others, acts of kindness, giving to others, feeding, living with all groups, and identifying with his Higher Self.

[Selbor13]

I believe he came here not to rid us of "sin" but to teach us how to become one with source. His message was all about unconditional love and forgiveness. Even after being humiliated and abused he forgave them and thought no less of them. It was like him saying "look people, I know you try to justify your cruel actions and hate with the false believe that it is justice, but if I am being tortured and humiliated in public and still have the heart to forgive then so can you, that is the key to salvation".

I think "sin" was used more to control people, control by fear.

I don't like the idea of "sin" atonement and I don't expect any thoughtful, intelligent, rational person to believe such a thing.

That's because submitting to the will of God means letting go of folly and vanity. Something we are wont, as humans to cling onto.

[Seawolf]

First it means letting go of whatever I think my 'sins' or errors are that are holding me back. I have no idea what's really going on underneath the surface. Pretending I do would be me trying to take control of something I know nothing about. I would rather God have control. Then it means asking forgiveness for whatever errors are in me (my mind). All I do is initiate the process by petitioning God to cleanse me. This is a constant process. Some do the same thing by regular meditation. If it works, I start to see changes in my attitude and life in general. If it doesn't, I'll do something else. I'm not looking for specific results though, I can't control what happens. But I do look for general improvement.

[Amilius777]

You guys pretty much summed up what I was saying.

Like I said above I don't believe in "SIN" the way it has been institutionalized. It means separation and missing perfection.

To do the will of God is not to harm, it is to love all and not fear. Selfishness and fear are our primordial enemies.

Jesus showed the way back to the Source in his sacrifice. That is exactly what I meant and you made it clear Selbor

But Karma is also involved with the whole "separation" thing.

There are Two Trees in the midst of our consciousness- Tree of Life or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Tree of Life continues towards harmony and perfection. The Tree of Knowledge of Good/Evil is separated from life and Source. It brings both good and bad experiences- duality. It ends in death of the spiritual. This is karma.


We can eat from Life or the Knowledge Tree. As Moses said- "Choose before you Life or Death". Jesus could not have been become the Savior unless he ate from the Tree of Knowledge in a previous experience, so he could be the one who becomes one with the Source in his journey- this would usher in a chain reaction for souls around the world to follow his lead back to the Source.

Of course Jesus' crucifixion is on one side the sign of God's forgiveness for the hostile world against his love. But on the other side is Jesus' final development into becoming the Son of God-Christ.

[psychoslice]

You are only sinning when you believe you are nothing more than your carnal self, atonement is when you finally Awaken and realize that you are One with the Source or God.

[Amilius777]

Completely agree!

One thing I may add. What then do you call things like murder, violence, hate, bloodshed, deviance, sexual deviance, etc?

I found those to be "personal evils". Meaning they are not sins. They are far worse than that. They are the unevolved animalistic nature.

Most people only abhor thoughts of such things or feelings of anger and disgust to others but it is another thing to be "attached" to such negative emotions and to react with them.

Would you agree psycholice? That attachment and enactment of negative emotions/thoughts is what defines the separation between most normal human beings trying to learn the Oneness vs. human beings steeped in evil?

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by Amilius777

Completely agree!

One thing I may add. What then do you call things like murder, violence, hate, bloodshed, deviance, sexual deviance, etc?

I found those to be "personal evils". Meaning they are not sins. They are far worse than that. They are the unevolved animalistic nature.

Most people only abhor thoughts of such things or feelings of anger and disgust to others but it is another thing to be "attached" to such negative emotions and to react with them.

Would you agree psycholice? That attachment and enactment of negative emotions/thoughts is what defines the separation between most normal human beings trying to learn the Oneness vs. human beings steeped in evil?

There are things that we don't like and there are things we do like, in them self they are just things, yes they are animalistic, but then we are animals believing we are not.

[Seawolf]

I like what Jesus said about commuting adultery in your heart. If you think about it, it's the same as doing it. To me that means we all have hate and murder in us, but most of us just don't act it out in a way that lands us in prison.
I don't see a difference between people learning Oneness and humans steeped in evil. We're all steep in 'evil'. The pharisee looked down on the sinner and thanked God he was better than that trash. We don't realize how violent our society is and that we're a part of it. The sinner wouldn't even look up, and asked for mercy, because he had the gift of having his sins apparent to him, whereas the pharisee was oblivious to himself.

Not quite on topic but the Tree of Knowledge was mentioned.

The Tree of Knowledge is symbolic for when man was given mind. It changed him from a mindless creature into a thinking human being. This is also the reason that man "left" Eden as with the gift of mind he lost the bliss of ignorance. Now knowing good and evil, man could return to the Source.

"It can be noted in passing, also, that the symbolic tree of Masonry, the locust-acacia, is another typal representative of the tree of Eden. For it is the Greek a-ka-kia (acacia), meaning "innocence", "harmlessness". The Edenic tree has often been called "The Tree of Innocence", indicating the condition of life in its pristine "purity", before its "fall" into matter, "death", and generation."

http://www.levir.com.br/theotext.php?cod=00721