Your secret weapon

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by Fatimasque

I don't know why its weird that healthy people die.
I think the idea of death is so skewed for people, like death is a bad thing.
death is a birth right. and the 'angel of death' is non discriminatory.
in the same was as the angel of birth may be.

who says when we are born and to whom and where.
same with dying.

both are Gifts to us by the Divine.
the pain of death is for those left behind, not the ones who left, and now are ready for their next incarnation, or their final rest, or their return to God. (as you see it)

Me, I think death is my final gift from God.
after I have assumed my life purpose, and lived well and with intent and worked hard to be conscious and present and generous in life...

now I have my final well-earned rest.
some people's purpose is met very soon in life. and its time for them to go.

I disagree with said angel of death being non-discriminatory. If there's one thing I've learned: if you're 200% done with everything and crave for death, then death itself will flee from you for some mysterious reason. But if you are happy with a decent life (married, kids, income, etc) then you're more prone to die all of a sudden.

Both angels of death and birth are just idiots. Forcing people to be born against their will and then snatch their lives at the most inappropriate moments. But ignoring those who cry out to be relieved from this messed up world.

Also; I don't believe in a divine purpose for life. Why do children live a short life and die? Just to ''teach'' their parents a life lesson? That's one of the sickest and disturbing thing's I've ever heard, and even more disturbing is the fact that a good amount of people on this forum support such beliefs (not refering to you though).

[Fatimasque]

Lol

It's ok if you think of me or my thoughts or beliefs stupid or delusional.

I promise it does not offend me. Everybody has a belief system that supplements to their world view and their reactions to it. and that's what makes it an interesting place at least. (even if it is not the world we wish it would be).
I respect that you have a right to your opinion.

What you describe of birth and death seems like they're on an agenda to make this world a sucky place- I personally cannot fathom that.
other than the two 'single-window' scenarios you described, there are almost as many ways to die as there are people on earth. some die early, some die old. some die peacefully others in pain. some die alone, others surrounded by love. and then everything else in between.
these are just settings of life and death.

I don't see black and white.
suffering = bad, and joy = good
is too rudimentary a formula for me.

How anything unfolds in our personal lives or human history
can only be guessed at

everyone will take the very same experience, and make of it something else. Where one may break down, another fights, another rises, some walk away, and all of these also unfold differently for our journey.
Worst case scenario for one person, is Best cast for another

Either way

meaning is difficult to find even when we look for it sometimes.
if we don't believe in it at all, then I imagine we won't see it
even if it slaps us in the face. lol. (but I could be wrong about that of to)


And back to death for a minute, because I can't help that its a favorite subject of mine. prevalent too, in much of my poetry.

I believe it non-discriminatory
I believe it our first inherent birthright
I believe it a promise that is never broken
I believe it a resting place for the tortured soul
I believe it a resting place for the peaceful soul
I believe it punctual and purposeful

it bodes well to discern between
what I've seen, vs what I know, vs what I believe.

we cannot pretend that we know everything.
and that is why faith and doubt,
walk together in harmony

Thank you for your thoughts.
Different than my own, and for that appreciated.

Salam and Love
Fats

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

I disagree with said angel of death being non-discriminatory. If there's one thing I've learned: if you're 200% done with everything and crave for death, then death itself will flee from you for some mysterious reason. But if you are happy with a decent life (married, kids, income, etc) then you're more prone to die all of a sudden.

Both angels of death and birth are just idiots. Forcing people to be born against their will and then snatch their lives at the most inappropriate moments. But ignoring those who cry out to be relieved from this messed up world.

Also; I don't believe in a divine purpose for life. Why do children live a short life and die? Just to ''teach'' their parents a life lesson? That's one of the sickest and disturbing thing's I've ever heard, and even more disturbing is the fact that a good amount of people on this forum support such beliefs (not refering to you though).

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

I disagree with said angel of death being non-discriminatory. If there's one thing I've learned: if you're 200% done with everything and crave for death, then death itself will flee from you for some mysterious reason. But if you are happy with a decent life (married, kids, income, etc) then you're more prone to die all of a sudden.

Both angels of death and birth are just idiots. Forcing people to be born against their will and then snatch their lives at the most inappropriate moments. But ignoring those who cry out to be relieved from this messed up world.

Also; I don't believe in a divine purpose for life. Why do children live a short life and die? Just to ''teach'' their parents a life lesson? That's one of the sickest and disturbing thing's I've ever heard, and even more disturbing is the fact that a good amount of people on this forum support such beliefs (not refering to you though).

This life thing is a quandary alright. Who knows why all these seemingly bad things happen to seemingly good people.

Perhaps the child didn't really want to be born in the first place? Maybe it only agreed to live a short life, before being relieved from this messed up world, in order to teach the parents an important lesson? If that were what is happening, it might make that child's spirit something of a Bodhisattva of sorts. From that angle it becomes kind of a beautiful sacrifice that spirit made in order to teach another and help them along their path.

But who knows, I am just speculating, it is hard to know what is going on there. One can believe they know and become enraged about the whole thing and shake a fist at the sky, but I think I will reserve judgment on the big picture until my vision expands a bit more.

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by ketzer

This life thing is a quandary alright. Who knows why all these seemingly bad things happen to seemingly good people.

Perhaps the child didn't really want to be born in the first place? Maybe it only agreed to live a short life, before being relieved from this messed up world, in order to teach the parents an important lesson? If that were what is happening, it might make that child's spirit something of a Bodhisattva of sorts. From that angle it becomes kind of a beautiful sacrifice that spirit made in order to teach another and help them along their path.

But who knows, I am just speculating, it is hard to know what is going on there. One can believe they know and become enraged about the whole thing and shake a fist at the sky, but I think I will reserve judgment on the big picture until my vision expands a bit more.

Agree to living a short life only to cause pain and suffering to people who merely wanted to have kids? I doubt it... But each to their own I guess. The whole life lesson stuff rubs me the wrong way, but I respect your choice to reserve judgment and observe from the sideline. I, on the other hand, am beyond that as I judge anything that just sounds totally absurd or ridiculous, of which one thing is religion (any). I hate riddles and mysteries, and if there really are higher forces at work then it's about time for them to stop cowering behind those clouds and reveal themselves.

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by Fatimasque

Lol

It's ok if you think of me or my thoughts or beliefs stupid or delusional.

I promise it does not offend me. Everybody has a belief system that supplements to their world view and their reactions to it. and that's what makes it an interesting place at least. (even if it is not the world we wish it would be).
I respect that you have a right to your opinion.

What you describe of birth and death seems like they're on an agenda to make this world a sucky place- I personally cannot fathom that.
other than the two 'single-window' scenarios you described, there are almost as many ways to die as there are people on earth. some die early, some die old. some die peacefully others in pain. some die alone, others surrounded by love. and then everything else in between.
these are just settings of life and death.

I don't see black and white.
suffering = bad, and joy = good
is too rudimentary a formula for me.

How anything unfolds in our personal lives or human history
can only be guessed at

everyone will take the very same experience, and make of it something else. Where one may break down, another fights, another rises, some walk away, and all of these also unfold differently for our journey.
Worst case scenario for one person, is Best cast for another

Either way

meaning is difficult to find even when we look for it sometimes.
if we don't believe in it at all, then I imagine we won't see it
even if it slaps us in the face. lol. (but I could be wrong about that of to)


And back to death for a minute, because I can't help that its a favorite subject of mine. prevalent too, in much of my poetry.

I believe it non-discriminatory
I believe it our first inherent birthright
I believe it a promise that is never broken
I believe it a resting place for the tortured soul
I believe it a resting place for the peaceful soul
I believe it punctual and purposeful

it bodes well to discern between
what I've seen, vs what I know, vs what I believe.

we cannot pretend that we know everything.
and that is why faith and doubt,
walk together in harmony

Thank you for your thoughts.
Different than my own, and for that appreciated.

Salam and Love
Fats

Don't worry, it would take a lot more for me to think of you as stupid or delusional, even though our thoughts may differ.

Personally, I've had various beliefs, of which some I am kinda ashamed of admitting. I've even been a fundamental christian untill I started questioning the whole logic behind my beliefs in accordance to stuff I've personally been through and the meaning of it all.

As for death, I think of it as our one and only goal in life. We are literally born to die. It's not a birthright, but a commitment. The same as paying taxes. As for what happens after death, I truly have no idea... I either end up in hell and/or am denied acces to heaven because I most likely come short of the expectations any god has for me (be it Yawweh, Allah, Zeus, Thor, etc), or I just cease to exist and my atoms get recycled in the universe. Obviously I'd prefer the latter over the former as I'd rather not live an eternity of misery.

But............ That's just my perspective. Of course it's fine if everything has unfolded differently for you.

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

Agree to living a short life only to cause pain and suffering to people who merely wanted to have kids? I doubt it... But each to their own I guess. The whole life lesson stuff rubs me the wrong way, but I respect your choice to reserve judgment and observe from the sideline. I, on the other hand, am beyond that as I judge anything that just sounds totally absurd or ridiculous, of which one thing is religion (any). I hate riddles and mysteries, and if there really are higher forces at work then it's about time for them to stop cowering behind those clouds and reveal themselves.

I think one needs to be aware of what they are judging. Is it what is there, or is it what they have framed it to look like? For example you added in the words "merely wanted to have kids." Which re-frames the tragic event of the death of ones child, one often of immense human suffering, which whether you agree or not many feel is an ingredient in the process of growth, into one of trivial selfish desire to have kids being thwarted. We all have a hard time not judging what seems on the surface to be absurd or ridiculous, but we have to be careful not to frame things into something absurd or ridiculous before we observe and consider them.

Perhaps these 'higher forces' you speak of have revealed themselves. Yet many will not see them as they are too quick to first frame and judge them. They say, "how absurd or ridiculous, it is all a crazy riddle that does not make any sense", failing to see what they are dismissing is the perception and interpretation they themselves created, not what is there. In doing so, they judge the proverbial book by its cover, and believe they know what the moral of the story is without ever bothering to read a chapter or two. One must read the book before writing the critique. Back of the book reports are a neat trick for high school students, but serve little purpose for those who desire to learn and grow.

One's mind creates the reality that we live in many different ways. One of which is that once it creates the world inside the brain, it decides what that world means, and then it castes judgement on that world based on what it decided, forgetting that what it is judging is its own creation and narration. It may put on a pair of rosy colored glasses and say how nice it all is, or put on a dark pair of shades and complain about how dark it all is. Perhaps the human mind can never completely escape its own biases. They will always be part and parcel of the world that it experiences. But I think it is important to at least try to take off the glasses and look upon what is, as it is, before beginning to ascribe meaning and cast judgment.

There is an old saying that the teacher will appear when the student is ready. This does not mean the teacher was not there all along. If the student has already judged the teacher as a fraud or lunatic, then it will not be appearing as a teacher to that student.

They say knowledge is power, but it is also true that saying the words "I don't know", can be one of the most self empowering and freeing statement one can make. It opens the door to possibilities that were previously not there. Come to think of it, I believe I would place those three little words as the greatest secret weapon of them all.

I don't know.

.

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I think one needs to be aware of what they are judging. Is it what is there, or is it what they have framed it to look like? For example you added in the words "merely wanted to have kids." Which re-frames the tragic event of the death of ones child, one often of immense human suffering, which whether you agree or not many feel is an ingredient in the process of growth, into one of trivial selfish desire to have kids being thwarted. We all have a hard time not judging what seems on the surface to be absurd or ridiculous, but we have to be careful not to frame things into something absurd or ridiculous before we observe and consider them.

Part of what you've said is very true.. Wanting to have kids can indeed be a selfish desire. But yet... It happens. Some are successful while some aren't... Same goes for a lot of other stuff. which in the end, leads to the question as to why are some allowed their desires unthwarted while others aren't? Of course it can either be the random flow of life or just favoritism, depending on whether or not you believe a god (or any sentient force) is pulling the strings.

Perhaps these 'higher forces' you speak of have revealed themselves. Yet many will not see them as they are too quick to first frame and judge them. They say, "how absurd or ridiculous, it is all a crazy riddle that does not make any sense", failing to see what they are dismissing is the perception and interpretation they themselves created, not what is there. In doing so, they judge the proverbial book by its cover, and believe they know what the moral of the story is without ever bothering to read a chapter or two. One must read the book before writing the critique. Back of the book reports are a neat trick for high school students, but serve little purpose for those who desire to learn and grow.

Well, their subtle way of 'revealing themselves' clearly doesn't work (which gives me no other choice than to cling on to my atheistic views). Why? Well, it only just causes confusion and uncertainty. If they wish to play such stupid games with someone who is mentally capable of putting up with it; fine... But not everyone is, especially those who are 200% done.

One's mind creates the reality that we live in many different ways. One of which is that once it creates the world inside the brain, it decides what that world means, and then it castes judgement on that world based on what it decided, forgetting that what it is judging is its own creation and narration. It may put on a pair of rosy colored glasses and say how nice it all is, or put on a dark pair of shades and complain about how dark it all is. Perhaps the human mind can never completely escape its own biases. They will always be part and parcel of the world that it experiences. But I think it is important to at least try to take off the glasses and look upon what is, as it is, before beginning to ascribe meaning and cast judgment.

There is an old saying that the teacher will appear when the student is ready. This does not mean the teacher was not there all along. If the student has already judged the teacher as a fraud or lunatic, then it will not be appearing as a teacher to that student.

If a teacher is being unrighteously labeled as a fraud, then at least he should have the balls to stand up for himself and correct his supposed student, or perhaps this lame #ss teacher should try to empathise with his student a bit more as to why he/she feels such way and take a different approach that's on pair with the student's mentality. But there's no doubt that silently pouting like an idiot only adds more fuel to the fire, and is not exactly what I call appropriate behavior for any teacher.

From my personal perspective, a teacher should reveal himself NOT when the student is ready, but when he is the most needed. Something akin to Christ claiming to be there for the lost and not for those who are already elevated (even though I totally despise the bible, but I suppose you got the picture).

They say knowledge is power, but it is also true that saying the words "I don't know", can be one of the most self empowering and freeing statement one can make. It opens the door to possibilities that were previously not there. Come to think of it, I believe I would place those three little words as the greatest secret weapon of them all.

I don't know.

.

I agree that admitting not to know can be more self empowering than seeking knowledge, but in the end I don't think it really matters as we are still exposed to our own experiences that may or may not overlap with our beliefs. For me it's just easier to be sceptical, even though I often struggle with my scepticism, possibly because of my theistic background.

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

Part of what you've said is very true.. Wanting to have kids can indeed be a selfish desire. But yet... It happens. Some are successful while some aren't... Same goes for a lot of other stuff. which in the end, leads to the question as to why are some allowed their desires unthwarted while others aren't? Of course it can either be the random flow of life or just favoritism, depending on whether or not you believe a god (or any sentient force) is pulling the strings.



Well, their subtle way of 'revealing themselves' clearly doesn't work (which gives me no other choice than to cling on to my atheistic views). Why? Well, it only just causes confusion and uncertainty. If they wish to play such stupid games with someone who is mentally capable of putting up with it; fine... But not everyone is, especially those who are 200% done.



If a teacher is being unrighteously labeled as a fraud, then at least he should have the balls to stand up for himself and correct his supposed student, or perhaps this lame #ss teacher should try to empathise with his student a bit more as to why he/she feels such way and take a different approach that's on pair with the student's mentality. But there's no doubt that silently pouting like an idiot only adds more fuel to the fire, and is not exactly what I call appropriate behavior for any teacher.

From my personal perspective, a teacher should reveal himself NOT when the student is ready, but when he is the most needed. Something akin to Christ claiming to be there for the lost and not for those who are already elevated (even though I totally despise the bible, but I suppose you got the picture).



I agree that admitting not to know can be more self empowering than seeking knowledge, but in the end I don't think it really matters as we are still exposed to our own experiences that may or may not overlap with our beliefs. For me it's just easier to be sceptical, even though I often struggle with my scepticism, possibly because of my theistic background.

It won't do to flick the bird at all the teachers, skip class saying there is nothing to learn there anyway, and then blame the school system for failing one. Before getting upset because it seems some have it easy and get everything they want without trying, one should remember the old (Chinese?) curse, "May life give you everything you desire."

Perhaps knowledge can be forced into one, either by oneself or even by another, but I don't believe wisdom can. Opportunities to grow and understand may come and go, but one must be open to them else they will pass bye unnoticed. I don't know that life is not obligated to teach us, it only provides the opportunities. If we are blind or deaf to them, or just not open to learning, then we will not take advantage. Of course if it turns out that there are lessons that life must teach us, then perhaps such missed opportunities will only delay that learning and keep us in school that much longer. My own experience tells me that life has a way of getting its points across whether or not I want to hear them, only the harder my skull is, the harder it has knock. It can end up getting quite painful before it gets in. If a subtle hammer doesn't work, life just keeps getting a bigger one.

If you are hell bent on slaying any light that comes your way, then nothing can be illuminated, and nothing can be learned. Skepticism is a good thing. Without it one can end up falling for even the most ridiculous of lies and deceptions. Yet if over relied on, skepticism can easily become cynicism. Where the skeptic says, "I don't know if that is truth", the cynic says "I know better, that is false." Too often the cynic is just lying to themselves and claiming to have knowledge that they do not have, deceiving themselves. Instead of protecting oneself from darkness, the cynic errs in the other direction and ends up blinding themselves to light.

In post traumatic stress disorder, the mind, after undergoing a dramatic negative experience, develops a vehement reaction to protect itself from ever experiencing it again in the future. Unfortunately, the association to the stimulus can be so strong that any similar stimulus, even if it does not pose a similar danger, may illicit a vehement overreaction. A protective groove has been carved so deeply into the mind to avoid that experience, that it falls into that rut anytime it comes near it. In severe cases, where it is easily and frequently triggered, it can be a crippling disorder robbing one of the ability to fully experience what life has to offer.

There is a saying that once bitten one is twice shy. I suppose if one is seriously mauled by a dog, one may develop a phobia to even the nicest of doggies. Which I think would be a real shame, because there are a lot of really nice dogs out there, better and more loving and noble in character then the majority of humans I have known. IMO.
.

“To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation.” ― Yann Martel, Life of Pi

[Fatimasque]

Hey

I wonder why you would be ashamed of admitting past beliefs?
if the conviction of the new belief is set, then you would feel comfort in those new beliefs enough not to be ashamed of their predecessors?
I don't know... it's just a curious thing. I don't mean to offend, in case I did... I simply question myself the same way, if I realize myself 'feeling' something that doesn't make sense.
we all change and grow and evolve. I won't feel shame if last week I didn't know how to read, and this week I do. rather, I would feel pride, or confidence, right?
beliefs, when obtained or realized, are rather like learning how to read no?

anyway...
I have a hard time coining death as a goal, the way you did.
goals are achieved or not, committed to or not.
even if I don't commit to death (which most people don't), I will still die.
there is no way around death, so how can it be a goal vs say birthright ?
Ok, for me it is a commitment and goal too. hahaha. now that you mention it...
.
but I see it as, I am committed to death because I personally believe that's when I'll finally rest beside God. when I can ask all I want, and he will answer me, and he won't speak in riddles either, unless he's being ironic and its a fun banter, which we both enjoy anyway.... hahaha.
but that's me. for the rest of the populace, who don't crave God like such, why would it be a goal and commitment for them?

either way, a very interesting perspective... maybe I toss that one about a little more before I write it off, or at least shelf it :p

as to hell, heaven, or where we end up.
even though I have my faith, I'm still tossing that one in my hand...
If heaven and hell, as taught to me by my inherited religion, are real
then I really don't think the criteria for entry we've been taught are absolute or even close.

in islam, the Quran distinguishes between believers, the faithful, unbelievers, dis-believers, etc etc.
being muslim doesn't mean you're faithful, being a believer, doesn't mean you're also muslim. I haven't settled myself into the nuances yet...
I don' know myself, where, in the way I practice my own faith, I would be classified, if classifications were so distinct and necessary and fixed.

I know I love my creator divine, I know I am committed to that love, in both life and in death.
I know I am grateful for that love. I know I can lose my way from it sometimes and feel alone, I know I can return to it with reverence and love all over again...

(and I'm never in a rush for something, right.... so this can stay a question for me in my practice of faith for years before I feel I have an answer... and even then I'm ok that the answer may be wrong or has deeper levels. discovered later on... )

anyway, the way I see it, and the one thing I know for sure
is that if there was a criteria system, it would not be based on what we called ourselves or how we stood or sat when we prayed, or whatever else the religious schools are teaching us these days.
but rather what lay in our hearts. the sincerity of our intention, the kindness in our acts.
I don't believe that the creator of us all, will condemn a full humanity which It created, simply because they didn't call themselves muslim, or christian, or jewish, etc .... I think that's illogical, and one of the stupidest beliefs adopted by populations of religions today...

anyway... very interesting discussion.
thank you for sharing your views and experience.
I'm happy to hear if there are more thoughts coming from your way.

Peace and Giggles

F

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

Don't worry, it would take a lot more for me to think of you as stupid or delusional, even though our thoughts may differ.

Personally, I've had various beliefs, of which some I am kinda ashamed of admitting. I've even been a fundamental christian untill I started questioning the whole logic behind my beliefs in accordance to stuff I've personally been through and the meaning of it all.

As for death, I think of it as our one and only goal in life. We are literally born to die. It's not a birthright, but a commitment. The same as paying taxes. As for what happens after death, I truly have no idea... I either end up in hell and/or am denied acces to heaven because I most likely come short of the expectations any god has for me (be it Yawweh, Allah, Zeus, Thor, etc), or I just cease to exist and my atoms get recycled in the universe. Obviously I'd prefer the latter over the former as I'd rather not live an eternity of misery.

But............ That's just my perspective. Of course it's fine if everything has unfolded differently for you.