My objections to the claim of God's perfection

[MattMVS7]

Christians claim that God is perfect. But, I have my personal reasons for thinking He's imperfect. I'll just share 3 reasons for now. My 1st reason is in regards to the 2 popular, Christian views of punishment, which are Annihilationism (the idea that God erases unsaved sinners from existence), and Eternal Torment (the idea that God casts unsaved sinners into hell to suffer forever).

I think both views depict an unloving (imperfect) God, and I'll explain why. A punishment can be loving or unloving. An example of a loving punishment would be a loving parent punishing his child until that child learns his lesson and changes. An example of an unloving punishment would be God condemning stubborn, rebellious sinners to eternal torment in hell.

In order for torment in hell to be a loving punishment, it must be temporary (that is, it must last until those sinners in hell change their ways). Once they repent and accept Jesus as their savior, their hellish torment should end and God should welcome them into His heavenly kingdom. This temporary torment would make God like a loving parent who punishes his children until they change.

No loving parent would have his/her child tormented forever or annihilated. It says in the bible that God is love, which means His actions are loving. His punishment of stubborn, rebellious sinners on Judgement Day should, therefore, also be loving. Now, Christians think it's just if God's love ceases (if He delivers the unloving punishment of annihilation or eternal torment). But, it wouldn't be just because it would make God imperfect.

Why? I'll explain. A perfect God must be as loving as He is just and vice versa. Therefore, since a perfect God never stops being just, then He never stops being loving. In other words, since His level of justness is perfect (everlasting), then His love must be at the same level, which would be perfect (everlasting). But, there's a verse (John 15:9-12 KJV) that indicates God's love ceases for those who don't keep His commandments.

Therefore, this verse and, of course, annihilation and eternal torment, depict an imperfect God. Everlasting love is called "unconditional love," and no perfect being posseses love that's conditional. Now that I've discussed my 1st reason for thinking the Christian God is imperfect, I'm going to share my 2nd reason. People who don't conclude He exists will face punishment.

So, if He exists and someone concludes, based upon his extensive research, that He doesn't exist and never concludes He exists, then he'd be annihilated or suffer eternal torment in hell, even if he tried his best to come to the right conclusion. I think that's cruel and unfair.

Another example would be someone who does much research, but never comes to any conclusion, due to ongoing controversy regarding God's existence, and due to his lack of intelligence necessary to comprehend most of the research.

That person would also face the cruel, unfair punishment of annihilation or eternal torment, even if he tried his best to come to a conclusion. Now that I've discussed my 2nd reason for thinking He's imperfect, I'm going to share my 3rd reason. If God's human creations don't have free will, then any punishment He inflicts upon them would be unfair.

So, when I mentioned in the beginning that temporary, hellish torment was loving (fair) for stubborn, rebellious sinners, that was from the perspective of humans having free will. But, I'm going to explain why they don't have free will. God knows what tasks a robot would perform because robots don't have free will. They're just machines that are programmed to do certain tasks.

If they had free will, God couldn't know what they'd do because they have the free will to decide. Now, God knows everything, including our future actions. For example, He knew events would occur before they happened, such as the rise of Hitler and his act of exterminating the Jews, and He knew biblical prophecies would be fulfilled.

So, that means humans don't have free will. Also, He knew that only very few people would enter through the narrow gate (Matthew 7:13-14 KJV). If we had free will, He couldn't have known this. So, Matthew 7:13-14 implies that we don't have free will because not having free will means our fate is predetermined, and that Matthew verse explains a predetermined fate.

[Podshell]

A teacher knows how to plan lessons, some pupils gain knowledge in those lessons some , don't, does it make a difference whether God knows this? The benefit is that some will learn. We all can learn by direct knowledge and hands on real life situations. The teacher could say 'its not a god idea to put your hand in the fire " but you may want to test it out yourself, and God will know what will happen but will he know how long it will take you to realise you would have been better off just listening in the first place? Some carry on shoving their hand in.

The other points could be attributed to human imperfections in translation.

[sky]

@MattMVS7.

I presume you believe every 'man written word' in the Bible expressed though the primitive minds of our Ancestors.....

[Podshell]

Originally Posted by sky

@MattMVS7.

I presume you believe every 'man written word' in the Bible expressed though the primitive minds of our Ancestors.....

I was going to say that but then changed my mind as I am sure the individuals would have been chosen as capable, so thought most errors occur in later translation.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Podshell

I was going to say that but then changed my mind as I am sure the individuals would have been chosen as capable, so thought most errors occur in later translation.

We have to remember that Scribes, editors, and copyists were not wedded to "authenticity ", neither did they think that word for word accuracy maintained the sacredness of the Text.... Different times, different place, different cultural beliefs, hence the contraditions we find in various Bibles.... Imo.

[BigJohn]

MattMVS7

.... and if you look at some of the newer translations of the Bible, you might be surprised HELL is rarely mentioned if mentioned at all.

[Podshell]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

MattMVS7

.... and if you look at some of the newer translations of the Bible, you might be surprised HELL is rarely mentioned if mentioned at all.

Yes like the OP I can't see a point in eternal hell.

[Podshell]

Originally Posted by sky

We have to remember that Scribes, editors, and copyists were not wedded to "authenticity ", neither did they think that word for word accuracy maintained the sacredness of the Text.... Different times, different place, different cultural beliefs, hence the contraditions we find in various Bibles.... Imo.

I have seen this with translations of other sacred texts that ere not compiled by the true devotee, I think it's at the end of the Bible w a warning about changing the words of the book.

[BigJohn]

..... you might be surprised at how may words were mistranslated that because of the erroneous changes, resulting in altering basic 'Church' doctrines.

An oddity is when the errors are exposed, they generally are allowed to continue.

[Miss Hepburn]

I would not say God Himself is imperfect, at ALL....rather the (IMO) silly beliefs of Man about God are imperfect.
And the superstitions and fears made up about 'Him' from primitive, ancient ideas are imperfect or false.

*No specific religion being criticized here, mind you.