Forgiveness

Time heals................

Bearing a grudge for a long time is a waste of energy.

[Rah nam]

Originally Posted by Native spirit

To myself, forgiving someone is easy, forgetting is harder to do.

Don't forget, or don't think you need to forget, it is how you view those memories and how you feel about them, that matters.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by Rah nam

Don't forget, or don't think you need to forget, it is how you view those memories and how you feel about them, that matters.

Exactly, if a memory stirs up feelings of angst, sadness, etc., it means that you haven't really forgiven. Whereas when you've truly forgiven, the memory will have no emotional charge, and it won't trouble you.

Just on this point about becoming a doormat that often comes up whenever the subject of forgiveness is raised - honestly, I think people are just looking for an excuse to hold onto a grudge when they come out with this sort of thing, or it's like they're doing the other person a favour by forgiving, letting them off the hook so to speak. But to forgive is simply to let go of any negativity you might be feeling towards a person or situation (anger, resentment, bitterness, etc.), because holding onto those feelings does no-one any good - not you, not anyone else. It's not even really about the other person, you don't actually have to tell them 'I forgive you' or have anything at all to do with them if you don't want to. Certainly I'm not advocating letting people abuse you or exploit you all over again - not for a moment, distance yourself from toxic people where possible.

That's not to say it's easy, mind, like it's just a matter of flipping a switch - letting go of these feelings can be a very challenging and painful process, and it can take a long time. Denying the negativity that lurks inside you isn't going to do it either, rather, you have to acknowledge and feel into those feelings, because they tend to be hiding deeper, more vulnerable feelings of grief, sorrow, despair, etc. Make no mistake, true forgiveness is not for the faint of heart.

To the people decrying the whole notion of forgiveness, let me ask you this question: What do feelings of anger, resentment, etc. FEEL like? If you had the choice, would you choose to have those feelings inside you?

Ok,some things, you just can't forgive but the feelings will fade in time. Remember, what goes around comes around.
Acting with those feelings could cause more harm than good.

Originally Posted by A human Being

To the people decrying the whole notion of forgiveness, let me ask you this question: What do feelings of anger, resentment, etc. FEEL like? If you had the choice, would you choose to have those feelings inside you?

I popped back on just to answer this from my viewpoint since I’m one who questions what’s achieved by forgiving. And what does it really mean? The ‘whole notion’ is pretty wide in scope. I read in your and other posts about clinging to a grudge. I suppose that does happen although not always. If trust has been broken; loyalty injured the best bet is to make sure it won’t happen again. All it takes is a decision.

One way of looking at it is the “offendee” (!) can’t help being who they are so who am I to blame or even think they need forgiving. It might be best just to stay out of their way. If one’s clinging to a grudge retribution is far less work and if successful evens things out. There’s nothing wrong with “I got my own back!” (God, in the Bible was quite good at this.) It's no less spiritual than endless introspection and contemplation which could be prolonged and a path-changer that might or might not be a good thing.

I don’t get angry except with myself if I’ve been taken for a fool – and thus, been a fool. The solution is resolve not to get taken again.

But reactions must depend on what’s being forgiven. Pecadillos can probably be dismissed easily. Things that cause spiritual and/or physical violation, not so easy. Rather than go into paroxysms of spiritual angst I’d probably keep the person out of my firmament altogether or move out of theirs and let them suffer the fallout of their bad conscience if they have one.

In situations from which people can’t easily escape: an abusive marriage or parents it’s best to get out as soon as one can, surely. The wife beaten by her husband might forgive him when he says sorry but, with no guarantee it won’t happen again, she opens herself to recurrent attack. Hence the doormat. Same if you’re always giving someone money and they always say “I’ll pay it back” but don’t. Doormat.

So if one does want to restore equilibrium it’s only worthwhile if the forgivee shows genuine repentance.

This rambling probably doesn’t answer your question but at least explores a different view that’s stood me in reasonable stead so far through my days on this increasingly messy planet.

Thanks for the challenge! Back to hibernation, then….
.

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by tommylama

When we cannot forgive someone, we are placing our self above another person....

I disagree. Jesus forgave Peter, but he didn't forgive Judas Iscariot. Even Jesus didn't forgive everyone.

It is good to be generous in one's forgiveness, but if you say that we should forgive everyone, always, for everything, that is Toxic Forgiveness. Toxic Forgiveness means being a doormat, a fool and an enabler.

Don't get me wrong. It's virtuous to have a loving nature, to be quick to forgive, as forgiveness is an act of love. I believe in generous love but not in unconditional love. I also believe that in our forgiveness (an act of love) we should be generous, but not unconditional.

90% of the time, it's good and virtuous to be forgiving. It's the other 10% when things get complicated and when forgiveness is neither right nor good. In those situations, refusing to forgive is an affirmation of our human value, it's saying "I am not worthless, I won't let people take advantage of me or hurt me, or someone I love, without consequences.". Toxic Forgiveness is denying this sense of our value and that is why it's so bad.

[Starman]

Forgiveness is for self healing; it is more about the person forgiving than it is about the person thought
to need forgiving. The person thought to need forgiving may not think they need any forgiving. You can
forgive a person without that person ever being present, or that person ever knowing they have been
forgiven by you. Forgiveness comes from a feeling of deep humility of self and empathy for others.
Although in my opinion, there may be some things that are unforgivable. Still, when something is unforgivable
we should not allow it to consume us.

“To err is human to forgive is divine”
Alexander Pope

“To err is human but it feels divine.”
Mae West

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Rather than go into paroxysms of spiritual angst I’d probably keep the person out of my firmament altogether or move out of theirs and let them suffer the fallout of their bad conscience if they have one.

That would be absolutely the right course of action in my opinion, I'm not advocating that people tolerate abuse/disrespect/exploitation, etc. Nevertheless, even if you've created that boundary there's still liable to be lingering anger and resentment about what they did - as I say, true forgiveness for me entails letting go of these emotions. And that might be extremely challenging, I know that in my own life someone hurt me very badly when I was at my lowest point and I still feel contempt and disgust towards them at times for the way they behaved. But that's my issue, ultimately, I know that I have to make peace with the situation regardless of whether or not the person in question feels remorse for their actions, because the negativity I harbour towards them is a weight on my heart that serves no useful purpose.

Anyway, I'll let you go back into hibernation. Spring's coming very soon, after all

[tommylama]

I apologize if I am using too many words, but I think this discussion is crucial and to understand it properly requires a bit of analysis.

The following is taken from a book written by Alice A. Bailey, who was the amanuensis for The Tibetan, who is a Master of Wisdom. I'm assuming that the readers of this forum are familiar with who They are.

There is, therefore, nowhere to be found any basis for separation or any possible point of separation or of essential division. Any sense of separateness is due simply to ignorance and to the fact that certain energies are as yet unable to make adequate impression upon the human consciousness,functioning in time and space. The essential synthesis exists and the end is sure and inevitable; unity is attainable because unity exists and the sense of separateness is simply the Great Illusion.

Telepathy and the Etheric Vehicle, Alice A. Bailey

I know this is a difficult idea to accept, but the problems we face as a humanity are caused by our lack of unity. We see ourselves as separate and distinct individuals, which is the Great Illusion, as opposed to the unified organism which we are in truth. We are all cells in the body of God. It doesn’t matter what religion we believe, we are all part of Him and we have yet to discover that truth collectively.

This discussion is a perfect example of the stronghold which this Great Illusion has on our individual consciousnesses. We argue that love cannot be unconditional because then we put our self at risk of further abuse. This is the Great Illusion. We are ONE. That is the truth. When we separate ourselves from each other, there is no solution to the global problems we face.

If the Masters, Who I am quoting above, do in fact exist, then Their perceptions of the world are worth a closer look. If They don’t exist, and all of the many volumes of information purported to have originated from Them are just fabrications, then I surrender to the Great Illusion or the reality of separateness. But allow me to analyze this idea of the Great Illusion…

There is, therefore, nowhere to be found any basis for separation or any possible point of separation or of essential division.

These are very powerful words. Separation is illusion. The idea that you are you and I am me is a separation. It is not true. The only alternative is that you and I and all other conscious lives are a part of a singular divine organism. I call this organism the body of Christ, but the name is irrelevant. It is a divine conglomerate. We are not drops in this ocean of consciousness, rather we are oceans within this drop. Somehow, we must collectively find a path to embracing this truth. There is no solution to the problems of humanity where the Great Illusion is accepted to be the true reality. On the other hand, when we eliminate the illusion of separateness, the road to Heaven on Earth is clear and unimpeded.

Clearing the obstacles which prevent Heaven on Earth is my basic intention for this discussion. If it is possible to collectively realize the truth of oneness and unity, then it is in everyone’s best interest to work in that direction. The obstacles to this lofty goal are all rooted in the opposite of love. Hate is a strong word which nobody likes to admit to, but the irrefutable fact is that when we do not express absolute and unconditional love to all beings, then we are reserving a little bit of the opposite of love in some cases. The opposite of love is hate. If we do not love all beings absolutely and unconditionally, then we hate some beings in some measure. It might be just the tiniest bit of hatred we reserve for certain individuals, but it is hate nonetheless.

In a world of separation, hatred is par for the course. As separated individuals we live in a dog-eat-dog world where survival of the fittest is the rule. That world of separation is doomed to become annihilated. Walls are built and wars are waged and eventually the technology reaches a level where total destruction of all mankind is inevitable. There is no future in a world of separation. But according to the Master, there is no separation in the true reality. I think His words give us the only hope for a prolonged future. How can we realize this truth?

It is my contention that when we do not forgive unconditionally, we are guilty of hating to some extent. All of the circumstances in our lives are caused by karma. Karma is a reaction to the willful acts of human beings. If a circumstance in your life is that somebody decides to beat you up, I am contending that the only reason this could happen is if you hurt that somebody at some point in the past.

I realize that I’m way out on a limb here with these ideas. I am asking you to accept as fact that you are not an individual entity. The only basis I have for this are some words from a purported Master of Wisdom. I’m also asking you to take responsibility for all of your negative circumstances. This sounds ludicrous on its face. If somebody walks up to me (or my loved ones) on the street and starts beating on me for no apparent reason, how could I possibly be to blame? I’m suggesting that we deserve whatever happens to us, because our actions in the past, including all of our past lifetimes, warrant that kind of balance. If you can get past these two ludicrous suggestions, and accept that you are a cell in the singular body of a divine organism, then in time, when you are able to demonstrate these beliefs in all of your behavior, your consciousness will open up to the glory and love and the realization in your waking brain consciousness of your innate divinity. I am also suggesting that absolute and unconditional forgiveness to all beings will open your heart and speed up the process. I agree with those who say that people who antagonize us are doing “the best they can,” if you will. Very often “the best they can” translates into deplorable and hurtful actions, but more often than not, they were subjected to abuse themselves for part or all of their lives, and they really “know not what they do.” I think whoever in this thread said that Jesus did not forgive Judas is wrong. Jesus knew what had to happen. If Judas did not play his role as the Betrayer, Jesus’ mission to show us the way would have been incomplete. We all face our own crucifixion on this Path where we must forego our own individuality. To become one, we must all die. “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”

[Starman]

tommylama, I hear and respect what you are saying even thought I have a different point of view.
Readily forgiving everyone has the potential of opening you up for continued abuse. People who are not
forgiving will see you as an easy target, and they may repeatedly abuse you.

I believe it is necessary to protect yourself; forgiving a person does not mean you allow the violations of
that person to continue. I forgive for my sake not for their sake. Yes, I agree that individuality is illusionary,
and that we are all connected.

Nonetheless, I am a center of expression for the one being which has its center in all things and beings. But
each center is expressing differently, each form is at a different stage of development, and has varying filters
which may not allow for a pure expression. I understand that Jesus said "forgive them for they know not what
they do." But are we not all simultaneously teachers and students.

The story comes to mind of the monk and the scorpion; where the scorpion asked the monk to help him cross
a river and the monk picked up the scorpion and took him across the river, then the scorpion stung the monk.
The monk asked why did you sting me and the scorpion replied “it is my nature.” Forgiving people all the time
will not change their nature.

Additionally I do not believe that life is about what we “deserve” or do not deserve. Good things happen to bad
people and bad things happen to good people. What did you do to deserve to be born? And also in my opinion no
one deserves to die. So how can we say that a person deserves what happens to them in life?

“Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.”

Peace