How do you navigate the path that leads to liberation?

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

And for those who don't believe in God ( most Buddhists )

Buddhists don't believe in no god either. They don't believe in entertaining un-answerable conceptual questions. Buddha refused to talk about god at all, either to confirm or deny. So Buddhist's have no beliefs about god, for or against.

But then that's the point of Zen, to not have or entertain any opinions or beliefs unless they are based on direct experience.

If we took someone to Disneyland, and took them on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride, when they got off the ride at the end it would be obvious to them some persons made that ride. It didn't just form randomly. It was designed by humans for humans. The boats fit us perfectly, the music is for our ears and on and on...hand rails to get on and off boats... steps...

It should be obvious this world too did not happen randomly. Why would a plant like the carrot plant make a root we can eat whose micro nutrients provide animal bodies nutrients that prevent disease, injury and illness. The nutrients in oranges eliminate harmful free radicals from our bodies. Why would a plant exist that has the dna to make a fruit with specific medicinal properties for a human body. Human bodies NEED certain foods and liquids to survive and they just happen to exist and be here. The planets way to make air as well. Recycle carbon monoxide which we exhale into oxygen which we breathe in. There are actually insects that survive off one plant, both dependent on each other for their continued existence.

So somebody getting off the Pirates of the Caribbean ride has zero direct evidence it was created by others, no idea who exactly made what, but logically knows it was created. It's the same when we have an awareness of what exists here and how it all is related. Like we have eyes, and light rays just happen to also exist as the data that enters our eyes, sound waves, ears, and on and on... but like that ride, zero direct evidence of who exactly made what, but obviously there is a who or or group of who's. Intelligent designer's.

A complex machine or system requires a complex design, as many parts work together, and a complex design logically means the existence of a designer.

Is that designer or designers an old man with a beard on a cloud.... I'd doubt that...

Have you ever thought what would be your thoughts about all this you presented in your post, if you were actually in one of your dreams, not knowing that you're dreaming? Who created all of those, all that evidence that you experienced so realistically in your dream?

Pondering like that, makes me believe that there's no infallible evidence outwards of our selves, that we create all inwards and project it outwards.

[Phaelyn]

Everyone knows themselves to exist, and we could say all of us together, consciousness, is interconnected like a big spider web. We could just call this collective of consciousnesses, "god." What do we do all day? Create stuff. Look around your house, almost everything in it was created by another person or persons. So what is the nature of consciousness? To create. We even create our relationships with others.

So since we know we exist and create non-stop, heck look in a book store... that's billions of words created by us...and we look at the stuff here we found already existing when we got here.... plants, water, sand.... (a chemist could probably offer better words) the elemental table of elements, carbon and what not, so we know we create.... what is the most logical and obvious creators of all this other stuff? AND some us believe we live life after life....reincarnate.... so go somewhere else between lives..... what do we do between lives... CREATE! The obvious answer is we made all this from the place between lives. Obviously, only a very intelligent or skilled person or persons can make a new medicine or machine or some advanced thing, a new iphone, likewise, not just anybody can make a new life form or plant or insect... it's a skill and requires a lot of learning and knowledge in how things work. But some are advanced in such things between lives just as some are advanced in certain things in this life.

[Phaelyn]

There was a person here a long time ago who did not believe anyone else existed. That's a philosophy some have. But then these people who believe this die eventually and we are still here existing without them so they did not create everything. So we know their philosophy is flawed... though they may not.

Originally Posted by inavalan

Have you ever thought what would be your thoughts about all this you presented in your post, if you were actually in one of your dreams, not knowing that you're dreaming? Who created all of those, all that evidence that you experienced so realistically in your dream?

Pondering like that, makes me believe that there's no infallible evidence outwards of our selves, that we create all inwards and project it outwards.

Well we are merged with this body, so in it, until it stops working and we leave it. So while a human, our point of reference is inside this form and body with it's endlessly "talking" mind. But then there is a way to be outside it in a sense.

Say we doubt the "dream." Mostly the mental data we are being fed as reality. We come to the conclusion that our entire existence is determined by our brains and senses. We know, can observe, there is actually no past that exists now. So why would it affect us? I think of some fight I had with my partner yesterday and get upset now. Why? It is not happening now at all. So there is some infallible evidence. I can experience what I am thinking about whether of not it is actually present, just a memory or idea needs to be present. What I am thinking about effects my experience. But then I have almost zero control over what I am thinking. So what a mess eh...... but wait, what if I have no relationship with whatever is in my head?... I am indifferent to it. Then what? Then it has no effect on me or on my experience.

The fact we can control the relationship we have with our own thoughts proves we are not thoughts, we are separate. Somebody get's told, "you're an idiot" and gets very mad and upset, another get's told that and ignores it. That's the power we have to create our own reality. We don't have much control over the dream, the talking in our heads, our dreams, our situations, our thoughts, but we can just be with it all without opinion, like being on a ride at Disneyland. We don't control what is present so much, but have total control if we pay it much attention or not, we can be indifferent to it.

But then we don't have to be indifferent to the good stuff, the taste of an apple, or chocolate, to love, a sunset, just be indifferent to the stuff that creates suffering or conflicts. Indifferent to anything that creates a need or want or expectation or desire. Because we want now and ourselves to be perfectly complete and ok as we are right now. To be here now without any conflict in total contentment and peace. It's doable. Just let go of whatever makes it otherwise.

Originally Posted by inavalan

Who created all of those, all that evidence that you experienced so realistically in your dream?

Not me and I have no control over it's creation, so meh.... don't care what it is or presents. Put a puppy on a leash and a lot of conflict is created... let it run free in a field all is well....then even better is it is not my dog, not my puppy... somebody else's so it does not have to concern me at all.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

...

You're very convinced you're right ...

[BlueElephant]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

just because buddhists don't believe in god doesn't mean god doesn't believe in buddhists...

I love this !! I think God LOVES Buddhists ! I certainly do !!

It is one of the top humanistic and accessible paths or way of life on this planet.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

Hi Hitesh and others:

In Bhakti - Loving devotion to GOD is the actual goal. If Ishwar can give one Mukti (Liberation) - then I would rather not take the compassionate grace of Mukti and become great Buddies with Ishwar - yes ??? Its like have the gift or have the gift-giver.... Do I make any sense....?

That's a dilemma many a devotees face and people choose the devotion over liberation that seems more appealing in that these is fun/excitement/joy of play which is not possible in liberation .

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

So we don't have to worry about what we do, just what we are. Are we just these bodies and their drives, our minds that are self occupied and self concerned?.

Agree with the premises and approach Buddhism and Christianity . That are perfectly valid and with great merit . True surrender to God will result in God taking responsibility and when God comes into play what can be against Him.
And when one stops associating oneself with external matters and thoughts what remains is pure consciousness within and without and one is absolved from one's delusional state.

Lest there be any misunderstanding , I would clarify with above quote that wee have to worry about what we do to determine whether we are in delusional state or not . Rising above the delusional state is goal of Buddhism also.

I also appreciate the understanding you showed to diverse viewpoints . Thanks very much .

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

I like to use the word: Universe.

It's perfectly ok to call God with some other word or vision (like some old person with beard ) so long as one understand it rightly in right earnest and substance.

[sky]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

just because buddhists don't believe in god doesn't mean god doesn't believe in buddhists...

I didn't see anyone mention this

[sky]

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

I love this !! I think God LOVES Buddhists ! I certainly do !!

It is one of the top humanistic and accessible paths or way of life on this planet.

Agree but only when practised according to The Buddha's Teachings.