How do you navigate the path that leads to liberation?

[BlueElephant]

Thx BigJohn.

Phaelyn: this is why I put in genuine - there are very few genuine ones, but they exist. I am sorry for the many many people - millions - who have been fooled. Life is challenging enough on this planet - LOL.

I was lucky to have met quite a few - especially 40 years ago - at a time when there were many more truly Realized ones still living. Not self-titled, but known by many saints and scholars.

The thing is that many of them that exist - even now - are many times quite reclusive.

[BlueElephant]

If one does not love children - there is something wrong I think.

If one cannot meditate while in the middle of noise without being upset - then one might not be doing spirituality correctly...

Know them by their qualities: Love, patience, wisdom, kindness, compassion and so on.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by LiberatedLotus

Maintaining a perpetual balance between
being in this world yet not of it.

Very well said. Of course its easier said than done.

I would say this with a slight orientation /bias towards spirituality. Just the way aircraft can not stay afloat in 180 degree, our balance n middle path will be elusive if this orientation is not there.

Further there is tremendous importance of practice in action. Because God n world under the influence of God uses 3 fold test to determine a fact viz
1. intentions in mind which only God n u urself know.
2. speeches n writings like posts on this forum
3. actions in the world which is for others to clearly.

Further spirituality is less about emptying something negative in us and more about filling it with something positive.
So I m more fan of associating myself with greater beings n try to emulate them in baby steps.

Also it is very important to follow scriptures.However it requires lot of intelligence n patience to understand it. Simply reading letters without being one with it in spirit,there is no way of it.

[sky]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Very well said. Of course its easier said than done.

I would say this with a slight orientation /bias towards spirituality. Just the way aircraft can not stay afloat in 180 degree, our balance n middle path will be elusive if this orientation is not there.

Further there is tremendous importance of practice in action. Because God n world under the influence of God uses 3 fold test to determine a fact viz
1. intentions in mind which only God n u urself know.
2. speeches n writings like posts on this forum
3. actions in the world which is for others to clearly.

Further spirituality is less about emptying something negative in us and more about filling it with something positive.
So I m more fan of associating myself with greater beings n try to emulate them in baby steps.

Also it is very important to follow scriptures.However ir requires lot of intelligence n patience to understand it. Simply reading letters without being one with it in spirit,there is no way of it.

' Further there is tremendous importance of practice in action. Because God n world under the influence of God uses 3 fold test to determine a fact viz
1. intentions in mind which only God n u urself know. '


And for those who don't believe in God ( most Buddhists ) ?

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by sky123

'
And for those who don't believe in God ( most Buddhists ) ?

Buddhists believe in consciousness . For me consciousness - cosmic consciousness is God only .

Buddhist also believe in ethical norms and conduct . So God and I under God's influence consider Buddhists as believers of God (test of intention and test of action in 3 fold tests to determine a fact) regardless what they themselves claim (that's mere technical difference than that of substance ) .

Non-believers of God also can be great and can definitely be respected depending on their intentions and conduct because that is one of the myriad experiences this cosmic consciousness is having and playing with it .

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

1. intentions in mind which only God n u urself know.
2. speeches n writings like posts on this forum
3. actions in the world which is for others to clearly.

People interpret things in their own way according to their own experience and understanding which is fine. Everyone is a unique individual and chooses what works best for them. I will explain how I see or understand the above.

Using general terms, 1, 2, and 3 above are basically talking about behaviors, "spiritual" behaviors or "sins" to put it into familiar religious terms. Buddhism would not say "sin" but living in delusion, not knowing one's true nature etc all are about the same basic subject. Not being detached, in peace, in love, selfless, giving, and on and on verses the opposite. Positive harmonious states of being and the harmonious and loving actions and reactions that flow out of that state of being.

So 1, 2, and 3 above...#1. Intentions.... they can be selfish, self centered, anger, hate jealousy driven or flow out of love and compassion selflessness etc...2. What we say and write.... here again, these flow out of what we are, like selfless loving states, or selfish ego states... #3. actions in the world.....why we do what we do.

The root cause according to Buddhism is ignorance of our true nature. I'd argue this is the same as stated in all religions though all religions get to this point in their own way using their own concepts. The point is what we identify with as self.

We naturally come to identify with our body and minds as self. It makes sense as it seems like reality. We are born and others give this body we are in a name, and all we know is sensory data, what sensations we get from our bodies five senses and what our minds tell us, our thoughts. So we experience the world through our 5 senses and also through our mind and thoughts which includes memory and habit and all kinds of things. We experience our lives and we think about them, those two things at all times. So this is what we know ourselves to be.

What do teachers like Buddha, or Jesus and others point to? They ask us to know ourselves as something else. This really is the root cause of all experience and actions, behaviors, because what we do and experience is a result of what we are identified with as self. Both Buddhism and Christianity point to the same thing in their own unique ways.

Christianity points to it through the idea of surrender to god. What happens when we trust god in all things? When no matter what happens to us in life, good or bad, we surrender to it as god's will. We fully trust god to provide what is best for us. What happens here is we are no longer identifying with our self centered ego ways of seeing things. We have taken our attention off of our internal and external data and then have an experience of peace, and love.

Buddhism points to "emptiness" and not making this complicated, the basic idea here is non-identification with mind and thought as self, which like Christianity, changes what we are identifying with as self. When not identifying with mind, we become naturally loving and peaceful.

Why we are how we are, why we do what we do...a simple example, someone cuts us off on the freeway, someone calls us a name, someone blames us for something we did not do, all of these normally results is disharmony, being upset in some way, in conflict, but if we are not self centered, not identified with our minds and thoughts, instead detached, as we are identifying with other realities, God as a Christian, the liberated non-identified experience as a Buddhist.

So we don't have to worry about what we do, just what we are. Are we just these bodies and their drives, our minds that are self occupied and self concerned? If so, this is what we are, what we have decided to be. But this leads to conflict and stress as we can never fully get what we want as there is a limited amount of things we have control over. So instead we can just be grateful for what we have been given, accept those things we don't like as for a divine purpose, to not worry about ourselves so much. Be empty of thoughts of self, live to serve others, and we find doing so does serve ourselves as our conflicts leave us, our self caused struggles. Christianity talks about letting God take over, surrender, and Buddhism talks about how "all things happens on their own."

The now moment is what it is, and without me needing or wanting it to be other than what it is, it is peaceful whatever it is, without conflict. Being harmonious without conflict within, we are harmonious and without conflict in action.

[BlueElephant]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Very well said. Of course its easier said than done.

I would say this with a slight orientation /bias towards spirituality. Just the way aircraft can not stay afloat in 180 degree, our balance n middle path will be elusive if this orientation is not there.

Further there is tremendous importance of practice in action. Because God n world under the influence of God uses 3 fold test to determine a fact viz
1. intentions in mind which only God n u urself know.
2. speeches n writings like posts on this forum
3. actions in the world which is for others to clearly.

Further spirituality is less about emptying something negative in us and more about filling it with something positive.
So I m more fan of associating myself with greater beings n try to emulate them in baby steps.

Also it is very important to follow scriptures.However it requires lot of intelligence n patience to understand it. Simply reading letters without being one with it in spirit,there is no way of it.

Hi Hitesh and others:

As we know there are a variety of genuine Traditions, Paths (and even Religions - right? sort-of) that have different ways to reach Blip.

Thus:
some is through elimination,
some through inclusion,
some through transcendence,
some through embodiment.

Also as we know this might change and vary within an individuals path. There is usually a time for each of the above and an angle of each that can be understood at the same time.

Some Paths use practices and techniques that lead to a different goal, for some the practices and technique are the goal.

For example: In Astanga Yoga - the eight limb yoga and the writing of Pantanjali. There is a teaching within this to have Bhakti (loving devotion) to Ishwar (one meaning is God) because Ishwar can grant one the goal - which in this Tradition is Kaivalya (Isolated oneness/ Self Realization/ Liberation).

In Bhakti - Loving devotion to GOD is the actual goal. If Ishwar can give one Mukti (Liberation) - then I would rather not take the compassionate grace of Mukti and become great Buddies with Ishwar - yes ??? Its like have the gift or have the gift-giver.... Do I make any sense....?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Buddhists believe in consciousness . For me consciousness - cosmic consciousness is God only .

Buddhist also believe in ethical norms and conduct . So God and I under God's influence consider Buddhists as believers of God (test of intention and test of action in 3 fold tests to determine a fact) regardless what they themselves claim (that's mere technical difference than that of substance ) .

Non-believers of God also can be great and can definitely be respected depending on their intentions and conduct because that is one of the myriad experiences this cosmic consciousness is having and playing with it .

I like to use the word: Universe.

[Phaelyn]

And for those who don't believe in God ( most Buddhists )

Buddhists don't believe in no god either. They don't believe in entertaining un-answerable conceptual questions. Buddha refused to talk about god at all, either to confirm or deny. So Buddhist's have no beliefs about god, for or against.

But then that's the point of Zen, to not have or entertain any opinions or beliefs unless they are based on direct experience.

If we took someone to Disneyland, and took them on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride, when they got off the ride at the end it would be obvious to them some persons made that ride. It didn't just form randomly. It was designed by humans for humans. The boats fit us perfectly, the music is for our ears and on and on...hand rails to get on and off boats... steps...

It should be obvious this world too did not happen randomly. Why would a plant like the carrot plant make a root we can eat whose micro nutrients provide animal bodies nutrients that prevent disease, injury and illness. The nutrients in oranges eliminate harmful free radicals from our bodies. Why would a plant exist that has the dna to make a fruit with specific medicinal properties for a human body. Human bodies NEED certain foods and liquids to survive and they just happen to exist and be here. The planets way to make air as well. Recycle carbon monoxide which we exhale into oxygen which we breathe in. There are actually insects that survive off one plant, both dependent on each other for their continued existence.

So somebody getting off the Pirates of the Caribbean ride has zero direct evidence it was created by others, no idea who exactly made what, but logically knows it was created. It's the same when we have an awareness of what exists here and how it all is related. Like we have eyes, and light rays just happen to also exist as the data that enters our eyes, sound waves, ears, and on and on... but like that ride, zero direct evidence of who exactly made what, but obviously there is a who or or group of who's. Intelligent designer's.

A complex machine or system requires a complex design, as many parts work together, and a complex design logically means the existence of a designer.

Is that designer or designers an old man with a beard on a cloud.... I'd doubt that...

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by sky123

' Further there is tremendous importance of practice in action. Because God n world under the influence of God uses 3 fold test to determine a fact viz
1. intentions in mind which only God n u urself know. '


And for those who don't believe in God ( most Buddhists ) ?

just because buddhists don't believe in god doesn't mean god doesn't believe in buddhists...