It isn't ONE Self it is Self that is all there is ..

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Greetings GL,

It has been presented in this thread that it doesn't matter whether someone perceives I exist or not, I exist none the less. Or words to that effect.

It comes off to me this conversation is involving two things basically. That which is Directly Experienced and that which is Thought/conceptual to be possible or be. What enters into ones own consciousness and what is within consciousness as a whole.

Well MG it could be said that there is only a thought that one is directly experiencing lol, can you directly experience typing a reply without a thought of it that could be conceptualised as that

May observe the moon, but never been on the moon. So go by what information is given about the moon. Being on the moon is still just an idea as to what it is like, for me. The moon exist none the less.

So, don't know in regards to expericing being on the moon. Can still observe its reflection in the sky here. If not observing from the perspective here on Earth, would presume the moon would be experienced in a totally different way.

Yes, life and the many lifeforms will do what each are created to do regardless of what I may think about. It makes life interesting. A little mystery breaks up the boredom.

I also think there may two different things being discussed. The existance of life forms, which gives diversities/individualizations and the wholeness/inclusions of it all. Which can bring about a sense of inclusion.

What is experienced by the individual creates what may be perceived. Was what is observed there before it was observed? Seems some of the philosophical/conceptual questions presented. The question for me is; What is being experienced and what is this bringing into my life/experience?

Philosophical/conceptual is more mental and/or pointers. Which have thier place. The other creates a knowing that goes beyond just thinking about it, IMO.

Don't get me wrong. Do enjoy exploring the possibilities, at times. Enjoy sharing and viewing different insights and perspectives. What is experienced in whatever way brings it home, atleast for me.

Also the imagination can open the mind to explore beyond what may be held at present and observed. It makes life interesting and has its place as well.

A well balanced thoughtful post MG, it's like you have one foot embedded in the earth while your finger tips are swirling the clouds

In regards to what was bolded, was your partner there prior to observing him or her or did you create their existence through the perception of him or her .

Its a bit like the chicken and the egg scenario, but you can't make an omelette if you haven't got an egg present . How would you create an egg if one didn't already exist ...

Open question ..

Lets see if anyone can create an egg into being from perceiving one that isn't already there ...


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

putting a different film in the camera is relatively easy... trying to figure out how the camera works is much harder...

Trying to perceive a camera into existence when it isn't there already is even harder

Have you managed to create a diamond necklace into existence or a million dollars that wasn't actually there to begin with?


x daz x

[God-Like]

[quote=ketzer]

Originally Posted by God-Like

To be honest I don't follow the inns and outs of these types of experiments so I don't understand them, I am more of a red belt in these fields .

Originally Posted by God-Like

Well then, it is worth a look in my opinion. The crux of it is that in the experiment, (which is now up to 2000 atom molecules, my previous info was from 2012), is that matter when not being observed, does not seem to be material at all. In fact it does not appear to exist in any traditional sense of that word. Instead what exists is a mathematical probability function (in the form of Schrödinger's wave function) of where the matter might be observed to be if an observation were to be made. In other words, the matter only ‘exists’, as a thing, when we are looking. Actually, we don’t even need to be looking at that moment. We can design an experiment in which we could later... say...IDK...a billion years later… go back and look at the data and determine which slit the ‘molecule’ passed through, (as a single thing would do, as opposed to how a wave would go through both) and we find that the matter seems to have known that the possibility of being observed existed way back then, and so behaved accordingly, as an existing observable thing would do. But run the experiment in a way in which one can never know which slit the molecule (or perhaps one day moon) would have gone through, and it will once again behave as a mathematical wave of probabilities of what might become but not yet is, it will instead go through both.

So when a ball hits you on the back of your head and you feel the impact then how can the ball not be foundationally on a similar wavelength of vibration as the head that it hits .

What I mean is, we have to have the same wavelength of vibration don't we in order for the ball the actually impact on the head .

Individual perception has to be involved for the ball to actually effect oneself .

If it doesn't materially exist using your words when not perceived then it cannot make an impact .

I have an understanding that nothing is solid per se even though there is the vibration felt of solidity but a snipers bullet that hits you between the eyes isn't seen but it still ends your physical life experience .

Who creates a bullet that flies through the air that isn't seen or perceived until it hits you?

I find science interesting but from one perspective the scientists that come out with these experiments from a non duality point of view aren't even here and are part of the dream are they not ..

When we talk about consciousness, no one knows what it actually is, partly because it's a man made concept and partly because the essence of what we are can only be mindfully approached and concluded ..

As just said to Falling leaves and MG lets do an experiment now and create something in front of you that doesn't exist until you perceive it ..

Lets all try and create a chimpanzee 'now' that doesn't actually exist now .

You see it's all well and good suggesting that the moon is created when perceived because we all know of the moon ..

Lets try and perceive something into reality that no one knows of ..

This is an experiment that will show you that this type of experiment only works on something that is objectively there in the first place .

Otherwise you could create a pink elephant now through perceiving one .

I bet you can't perceive a pink elephant through creating it through perceiving one .


x daz x

[God-Like]

[quote=ketzer]

I am trying to establish a foundation of what we are here that reflects in all things .

There is self, which creates that I AM thought that it perceives to be what it is here, self’s perception of ‘self’, and self creates all the myriad things which it perceives as ‘not self’, the molecule, the moon, the tree, the you. [quote]



I would say there is I AM awareness that creates a sense of self .

The self is a thought of oneself that derives through I AM awareness .

You see there can be an absence of a thought of self and still be I AM awareness, so I AM awareness super duper trumps a thought of self

So if you believe that the tree is not self, there has to be I AM aware that I AM not the tree ..


x daz x

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Have you managed to create a diamond necklace into existence or a million dollars that wasn't actually there to begin with?


x daz x

no, but then why would I want to? For me it isn't a matter of bringing things into existance just to get what others say I should have, it is a matter of getting rid of all the stuff I hate but was told to want anyway.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by God-Like

This is an experiment that will show you that this type of experiment only works on something that is objectively there in the first place .

Otherwise you could create a pink elephant now through perceiving one .

I bet you can't perceive a pink elephant through creating it through perceiving one .


x daz x

i'm sure that makes sense to you since you do indeed have that limitation... but I am not sure at all that it is a NECESSARY limitation. Other than to keep people from getting too full of themselves when trying to impress each other...

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by God-Like

A well balanced thoughtful post MG, it's like you have one foot embedded in the earth while your finger tips are swirling the clouds

In regards to what was bolded, was your partner there prior to observing him or her or did you create their existence through the perception of him or her .

Its a bit like the chicken and the egg scenario, but you can't make an omelette if you haven't got an egg present . How would you create an egg if one didn't already exist ...

Open question ..

Lets see if anyone can create an egg into being from perceiving one that isn't already there ...


x daz x

Hi daz,

I don't deny thoughts. Sure there are thoughts behind these words and what is being presented. There are thoughts in understanding or not what is being presented. For me at times it is how the thoughts are directed
Have you ever just sat with a loved one or friend and not a word is spoken, yet each feel the others presence? Or just enjoying taking a walk, without thinking about what everything being experienced is. Just noticing and enjoying the walk, the moment.

This is some of what I notice with in myself and around myself, life just doing what it does. Not to have to think about it all the time and at times can be caught up in overthinking it. Over thinking tends to blurr the view a bit. For in this it is a bit of a control thing, instead of allowing it to just roll.

I create my thoughts on some level. I create my perspective influenced by my thoughts. This does not mean I create everything. Just how it is sensed by me.

A scent can be pleasant for some and unpleasant by others. Just as an example.
Each person has thier own ways and abilities to conceive, understand, interpret, and such an what life may bring.

Not referring to whatever is observed being created by me, but in how whatever it may be is perceived or not. Does a tree care if it is called a tree? I observe the tree and call it such for reference sake, so perceive it being a tree as oppose to a bird.lol.

This in a way starts to drift into what is believed. Another subject perhaps?

What influences what is perceived? Our thoughts, what is observed, what is already there? All these and more? It is the mysteries in some ways and a knowing in some ways.

For me it is not that what is created and has been created does not exist and I am the sole Creater, as much as how I relate and understand it.

Sometimes I just enjoy the view.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Yes, and this is why it is necessary to get the foundation straight to begin with otherwise premises are built upon an unsound footing. Some have a foundation where they are the only real conscious creator and perceiver and everything comes and goes because of this .

It's a mad premise and I have spoken to peeps that present this foundation but it never works and never ends well



Theoretically this is true, there could always be some organism that is present even when the personal self feels that they are alone . This organism (using the premise of the perceiver creating one's form) would therefore hold your form of existence simply by being present perceiving . In a way this is a water tight premise because one couldn't prove either way that there is something present of this world or not creating your form .

Again we can delve back into how appearances appear and the requirement for a physical birth for one to make a physical appearance, it's not as if appearances in this way can appear and disappear because we need the actual birthing experience in the first instance . This would suggest the birthing process isn't actual, all it is is a smoke screen because it's the dad or someone else simply creating the existence of the baby by perceiving into reality ..

I could say that you are really a martian disguised as a human and have total memory loss and you could not prove me wrong . This is what can happen when we create premises that are water tight, but we need the foundation to be true to begin with .



There are I am sure many theories that exist to explain all these aspects .. I like to see all these aspects integrated and it seems to make sense to do that because we cannot separate one aspect from the other when experienced in a certain way and in a certain environment .


x daz x

I enjoy integrating all aspects of existence.

I am starting to think that physical existence is a hologram, not a hologram that is illusionary, dreamy or not real, but a hologram that is real/truly exists. Hmmm, It makes sense that everything can be made out of light, but we/our brains, mind and body, which include our physical senses perceive everything as physical matter.

What do you think?

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi daz,

I don't deny thoughts. Sure there are thoughts behind these words and what is being presented. There are thoughts in understanding or not what is being presented. For me at times it is how the thoughts are directed
Have you ever just sat with a loved one or friend and not a word is spoken, yet each feel the others presence? Or just enjoying taking a walk, without thinking about what everything being experienced is. Just noticing and enjoying the walk, the moment.

This is some of what I notice with in myself and around myself, life just doing what it does. Not to have to think about it all the time and at times can be caught up in overthinking it. Over thinking tends to blurr the view a bit. For in this it is a bit of a control thing, instead of allowing it to just roll.

I create my thoughts on some level. I create my perspective influenced by my thoughts. This does not mean I create everything. Just how it is sensed by me.

A scent can be pleasant for some and unpleasant by others. Just as an example.
Each person has thier own ways and abilities to conceive, understand, interpret, and such an what life may bring.

Not referring to whatever is observed being created by me, but in how whatever it may be is perceived or not. Does a tree care if it is called a tree? I observe the tree and call it such for reference sake, so perceive it being a tree as oppose to a bird.lol.

This in a way starts to drift into what is believed. Another subject perhaps?

What influences what is perceived? Our thoughts, what is observed, what is already there? All these and more? It is the mysteries in some ways and a knowing in some ways.

For me it is not that what is created and has been created does not exist and I am the sole Creater, as much as how I relate and understand it.

Sometimes I just enjoy the view.

You saying "Just how it is sensed by me", sums it up pretty nicely. We do not create or attract anything, we simply sense what already exslsts out there, and what exists out there is infinite, thus anything and everything is possible.

[muffin]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I enjoy integrating all aspects of existence.

I am starting to think that physical existence is a hologram, not a hologram that is illusionary, dreamy or not real, but a hologram that is real/truly exists. Hmmm, It makes sense that everything can be made out of light, but we/our brains, mind and body, which include our physical senses perceive everything as physical matter.

What do you think?

Good afternoon MikeS80

Me thinks your going down a side tunnel of the same rabbit hole, still makes for interesting material