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  #61  
Old 16-09-2017, 05:48 AM
baro-san baro-san is offline
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Hello! Being a man / woman doesn't entitle you to speak for men / women in general, and even less to comment on the opposite sex in general! You may believe that you're right, but you aren't.
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  #62  
Old 16-09-2017, 06:11 AM
Silver Silver is offline
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Originally Posted by baro-san
Hello! Being a man / woman doesn't entitle you to speak for men / women in general, and even less to comment on the opposite sex in general! You may believe that you're right, but you aren't.

There is something satisfying that you said there, baro-san. I largely agree with it, but it doesn't stop people from talking about what they will...

I'm glad you recognize among other things, that people should be allowed to speak for themselves. So much of the talk is sheer projection, as I see it anyway.
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  #63  
Old 16-09-2017, 01:42 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Hey there r6 and thank you for your very long and detailed response.
I think first I need to clarify once more, that of course I speak for myself, based on my own experiences, the experiences of the women I've known, throughout my life, and my in-depth studies and observations academically of women (among many other things) from every corner of the globe.

That's not to say that there are not individual exceptions or times in people's lives and so forth when they may not fit the general trends or behaviour of "most women". But that's exactly my point here. If it doesn't speak for who those women are as a whole across the entirety of their lives, that's not what I want to focus on. And most women don't want to be defined by their "bad times" or by their one mistake or period in their life when they were not well and made poor choices, or whatever. That's not who they are, that's not what they seek, and they would resent the hell out of being defined by that. In my experience, per all those I've ever known and all of those for the most part that everyone I've ever known has ever known and so forth and so on

Now because it's so tedious to have to post a disclaimer like that every time I want to speak to my experience, observations, and studies, which are quite in-depth, I didn't bother to do so before the last posts and I'm glad you seem to understand where I was coming from. Since you're coming from the same place, but more purely based on scientific observation, I think in your case. This is a disclaimer l make more for the benefit of other folks who may not understand that this is always where I'm coming from. How could I be coming from anything else? Hahaha

It seems to me that you however may have greatly misunderstood my primary point, which is that women primarily do want a loving relationship with men, or else as they get older they prefer often not to engage in either sex or relationships that are loveless or meaningless. There's a reason why women initiate between two-thirds and three-quarters of all divorces. And if they are not already in a committed relationship for marriage that they want to continue for many other reasons, and there are many other valid reasons for a lot of women such as family, companionship, and so forth, which have nothing to do with sex. But unless they are already in a long-term relationship, women increasingly often choose not to pursue a relationship at all if there is no one who is willing to first get to know them as people and as friends. How else do you get to know someone authentically and for who they are as a person?

It's not through hooking up at the age of 40 plus without an authentic love well-established, to primarily indulge in your sexual urges. Not as a woman. So many of us find that increasingly distasteful, in large part because we're much more aware of the fact that there is no love present. Those women who do pursue aggressive sexual behavior after this point (what I call the Age of Maturity versus the Age of Innocence), are usually bent or extremely desperate. And like I said earlier, these situations and these people are to be avoided. All the more reason for men who are not already in a committed partnership to own their game and practice discipline and temperance, so that they can exercise good judgment.

If quality relationship opportunities do not present themselves to emotionally and spiritually mature women as a pool of men that you've already come to know and love as people, from whom you can pick a partner long-term (one that you authentically love and also truly desire to touch), then women can and do increasingly choose to forego any and all relationships that do not satisfy and nurture their soul. Definitely including partnerships lacking love if they don't already have one at this point. In other words women can leave the door open but do not actively seek it necessarily and do not require one. We can and do equally get our companionship and intimacy needs met in many other places and we always have done for the most part. This doesn't change for many women.

If someone presents themselves substantively and seriously, without demanding women prostitute themselves as a condition to "get to know you" over many many months (lol), then we're talking. If not, it's not only pitiful and ludicrous, but it's a completely unappealing choice for increasingly numbers of women who have come into this age of maturity. To put a fine point on it, it reflects those men's core lack of understanding of the majority of women who require authentic love in order to find sex appealing, particularly over the long haul.

Within a loving relationship, particularly if meaningfully committed in some fashion, sex is okay and even desired by women if they feel authentically loved for who they are, and not conditionally "loved" (i.e., as long as you give me sex regardless of how I treat you, as long as you do what I say, as long as you know your place, as long as you still keep yourself up whilst I go to pot , and so forth). As women get older and have had their children, conditional "love" which does not include a satisfying and authentically loving component (where we feel loved for who we are as an individual and as a soul), is realised for what it is, which is not very satisfying and frankly is increasingly optional for many of us. Increasingly, meaning as we come into our maturity and spiritual awareness.

Remember what I said about how sex without love feels very similar to coercive sex or to rape for many women. It becomes that distasteful. And from that perspective you can perhaps begin to understand a woman's orientation to sex far better.

What we do seek is authentic love in ALL of our personal relationships, and for many women they've been doing that throughout their lives. So once again, I think you greatly misunderstood my meaning if you think that I said women don't want loving relationships. Actually that's *exactly the opposite* of what the vast majority of women want as I understand, based on my own experiences and the experiences of pretty much everyone that I've known who has not been in a bad place, or had some sort of mental or emotional illness or challenge, etc.

I probably will not respond in detail to most of your items in the prior post, because they are taking more of a purely scientific approach. My whole thrust on this thread has been that I don't think genes are largely responsible for the majority of who and what we are. They provide template upon which we stamp the essence of our soul and our spirit, to form the essence of our being in this incarnation. More to the point they provide a manifestation into the physical realm of a few of our gifts and most of our challenges.

But I will say that this particular area -- at this point in time, and in this place on our journey as a species -- that there is a core and fundamental difference in our approach to this particular topic or aspect of life, meaning sex. However, if we come to a place of authentic love both as men and women, for one another equally to the self, and for the self equally to the others, then I think that we can come to a middle ground. Where no one feels touch without love, like rape. Where no one feels exploited or used, and where no one feels ignored or rejected because they are not being touched with love when they are within a committed partnership (let's say).

All of those issues can be addressed from a middle ground of authentic love, but without that middle ground none of these issues will ever be adequately addressed, IMO.

It's been very good talking with you again, as always :)
Peace & blessings all
7L
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  #64  
Old 16-09-2017, 02:02 PM
Silver Silver is offline
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Silver likes. ^ ^ ^
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  #65  
Old 16-09-2017, 02:32 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Big hugs back atcha Silver !!!

I feel like I'm holding a matchstick against the flaming frigging forest fire of lies and misdirection that our culture has imposed upon so many of us... And which has completely misled and confused so many of us on these really core issues. These fundamental areas where folks really need some true understanding of where we're all coming from.

And then some look at me with the matchstick and the flaming frigging forest fire of lies and deceit, manipulation, and misdirection... And they say, well that fire looks a lot bigger to me... Hell, you haven't even lit your match. What's wrong with you? Get on board

And I'm saying yes, well that's exactly the point. I've chosen not to do so and to make different choices
And... So many of us have done, or are beginning to do so. There's an entire ocean of us out here .

But due to our intentional cultural misdirection and the resulting confusion that ensues, many still look for guidance to the consumptive raging fire instead.

Hang on... Imma go put my matchstick in a nice little bowl of water :)
Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #66  
Old 16-09-2017, 02:44 PM
Silver Silver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Big hugs back atcha Silver !!!

I feel like I'm holding a matchstick against the flaming frigging forest fire of lies and misdirection that our culture has imposed upon so many of us... And which has completely misled and confused so many of us on these really core issues. These fundamental areas where folks really need some true understanding of where we're all coming from.

And then some look at me with the matchstick and the flaming frigging forest fire of lies and deceit and manipulation misdirection... And they say, well that fire looks a lot bigger to me... Hell, you haven't even lit your match. What's wrong with you? Get on board

And I'm saying yes, well that's exactly the point. I've chosen not to do so and to make different choices
And... So many of us have done, or are beginning to do so. There's an entire ocean of us out here .

But due to our intentional cultural misdirection and the resulting confusion that ensues, many still look for guidance to the consumptive raging fire instead.

Hang on... Imma go put my matchstick in a nice little bowl of water :)
Peace & blessings
7L

I've been aware of the media's pushy tactics since I first picked up the Cosmo magazines - when I was a teen. The supersonic speed of seduction to feel and belief and even act like that is mind-blowing.

I don't appreciate their efforts. Yet, as young one, I poured over those pages. fwiw
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Old 16-09-2017, 03:14 PM
r6r6 r6r6 is offline
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7luminaries---but more purely based on scientific observation, I think in your case.

Some not all, and only like to consider those science-based correlations when they exist.

Quote:
which is that women primarily do want a loving relationship with men, or else as they get older they prefer often not to engage in either sex or relationships that are loveless or meaningless.

I think men also want a loving relationship and sex.

If there is no bonding/love in the relationships, I understand a woman having less interest in sex, and more so in as time{ age } goes by.

Quote:
But unless they are already in a long-term relationship, women increasingly often choose not to pursue a relationship at all if there is no one who is willing to first get to know them as people and as friends. How else do you get to know someone authentically and for who they are as a person?

Again, I believe this goes back to some of my previous statements. Men just need a place, women need a place and a reason.

And again, I think this correlates to lab studies that show womens brains being more active in both hemi-spheres , than mens.


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...it reflects those men's core lack of understanding of the majority of women who require authentic love in order to find sex appealing, particularly over the long haul.

Diitto my above women also need a reason to have sex and be in relationship.

Quote:
Remember what I said about how sex without love feels very similar to coercive sex or to rape for many women. It becomes that distasteful. And from that perspective you can perhaps begin to understand a woman's orientation to sex far better.

I understand, and agree, however, if one of the partners desires sex, it is the responsible of the other to help faciliate those desires. imho. This is a part of marriage, if sex is going to be involved in a marriage.

Otherwise the man or woman will go looking elsewhere to fufill their sexual desires.

Quote:
I probably will not respond in detail to most of your items in the prior post, because they are taking more of a purely scientific approach. My whole thrust on this thread has been that I don't think genes are largely responsible for the majority of who and what we are.

I belive genes are correlated to all of behaviour.


Quote:
Where no one feels touch without love, like rape. Where no one feels exploited or used, and where no one feels ignored or rejected because they are not being touched with love when they are within a committed partnership (let's say).

There exists degrees of love. Marriage is not always a perfect blissful state of union. IF two choose not to love each other, yet stay together and have sexual relationship, is their choice.

Quote:
All of those issues can be addressed from a middle ground of authentic love, but without that middle ground none of these issues will ever be adequately addressed, IMO.

Marriage is a middle ground of comprise, communication and many marriages touching, feeling, and blissful orgasim with another individual we love to whatever degree and trust. Trust they do not have AIDs or some other disease.
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Peace & blessings all
7L


And to all good night.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there exists a time--- mostly from puberty on --- for both men and women when there is overwhelming desire to have sex. You dont seem to believe that is so.

Both men and women desire a bonding/loving relationship. You dont seem to believe that either.

More specifics on the above later below.

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... in that authentic love is unchanging and uncorruptible at core.

I think this belief keeps you from having a broader consideration of what bonding/love is and can be. Too narrow for my tastes.
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Authentic love amongst humanity manifests in both intention and action: in actively seeking and actively desiring the highest good of the other(s) equally to the self, and of the self equally to the other.

Spirit-1, metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/conceptual spirit-of-intent.
Ive referenecd this above many times in many threads over the years.


Quote:
I think the authentic love "info" is located just as the mystics have always said...in the point of singularity that overlays all realms.

I was asking where in the genetic code{ codons } does the gene for bondinglove. Your comment above appears to me as meangingless mystiscism and not an actual location in the body of man and/or woman.


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The divine spark by which spirit enters and animates the temple of the body.

Again, meaningless mysticism to me. Not grounded in scientific foundation.
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The singularity is said to be metaphysically contiguous or present within the physical heart.

Sorry 7L, more meaningless mystiscism. No scientific basis, that I'm aware of.

More broadly put, it lies at our centres, the core of who we are.

I think I asked Linen about a similar statement. Where is the "centres" "core" located in the human body?

...."r6--A human yawns and another human sees that has an empthetic reaction/response they often time yawn also.
These two are similar situations of empathising. imho
....r6--If we see someone else having sex some people--- men more than women ---will have genetic sexual response some degree of the time."

I believe men are more sexually activated/stimulated via visual images than women. I dont know about audio.

Quote:
Let's state this another way. Loads of women would feel only revulsion, and/or perhaps embarrassment for the folks on display. I myself would have no response at all other than repulsion at a private act laid bare callously and publicly, and it would not hold my interest for any longer than it took to figure out what I was seeing.

This goes to men being the primary viewers of porn. Again, men sexually stimulated/activated by visuals more than women is my belief.

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Are you beginning to get the depth of the difference between most men and most women here?

Mostly over the years Ive focused more on the genetic manifest physical differrences, however, as I stated previously, I belive that men tend to only require a place{ to have sex } women tend to need a place and a reason.

For me this goes back to lab studies that show when asked a series of questions, women brains tend to become more activated in both hemi-spheres than men.

I.e. women have the same sexual desires, but another part of their brain also needs to be satisfied. Men may not get that for the most part, and they will say anything the woman wants to hear, just so they can get on with the getting it on.

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Of course if we feel truly loved by a specific individual for our unique souls (and NOT just for our bodies or parts which are common to all),

May relationships are based on compansionship, and/or along with a sexual relationship.

Quote:
. When a man realises the deepest level of intimacy is the soul level of authentic love -- which absolutely does NOT require sex and often will NOT involve sex -- ONLY THEN is a man truly capable of authentic love in partnership, where sexual intimacy is finally right and desirable for most women.

I'm not aware of any science based studies of regarding a depth of intimacy as correlated to any soul level of authentic love. Again, authentic love is will need to be better clarified/defined to a degree that both men and women can agree upon.

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Authentic love is not sex and is not created by sex. Non-sexual bonding is universal and potentially eternal if it is also an authentically loving bond, whether family, beloved friends, neighbours, partners, or whomever.

I dont believe your authentic love refutes sexual relationship. I think authentic love would be all inclusive and all includes a sexual relationship if one of the partners desire that.

Quote:
If you are talking about sex as equivalent to "bond/love", I think most men AND women would strongly disagree.

Ditto my above. Authentic love is all inclusive i.e. sex is not to considered revulsive, not considered as and intimate part of having a bonding/loving relationship.

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The chemical that encourages men to sleep after sex (LOL hahaha) is just that. It is inherited from the animal kingdom as a crude way of handling a barbaric and animalistic level of humanity via a form of sex addiction.

That rarely has ever happen to me. Do you a link to some scientific type{ Ex Johnson and Johnson studies?

Quote:
But as we can see in the modern world, if we were ever moronic enough to think otherwise for even a moment, we cannot manufacture authentic love through any means, and certainly not through sex or crude chemicals.

Genetics is chemistry. Hormones is chemistry. The sex drive is strong Luke Skywalker and Princess Lela{?}.
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The only time a woman may truly appear to reliably seem to crave sex is for deeply emotional reasons tied into her biology.

Ditto my above, and as stated earlier, women have and additional factor. Having an additional factor does not exclude the genetic desire. imho
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....most women prefer to seek mates whom they hope or believe love them specifically and (ideally) authentically and absolutely NOT at all just for sex or for various conditional reasons (appearance, type, etc).

Women like to know they are pretty and desired.

Men like to know that they are wanted. Authentically wanted?

Quote:
Sex is incidental for women in general. Meaning it's potentially or often desired IF loving and committed BUT it's strongly repulsive and disgusting if lacking authentic love and soul resonance, or if coerced (all of which feel more or less the same to most of us). Men really, really need to take that in.


Incidental
:accompanying but not a major part of something.
  • occurring by chance in connection with something else.
2....liable to happen as a consequence of (an activity)



Again, men sexual desire requires only a place, a womans is both a place and a reason{ emotional etc }



Sex is not on the same level as those other items you mention which are necessary for individual life. Sex is only necessary at the species level.


Sex and compansion is is neccesary for many men and women. imho
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Women are simply not burdened by the ongoing drive or requirement of having to have a man in order to shag. Put another way, it's easily, readily, and regularly simply channeled into intimate and loving relationships with ANYone close to us.

That goes back to men being the main market for porn.

Quote:
And sex without love is so strongly repulsive to a majority of women since it is equivalent spiritually and emotionally to rape, so it is not even remotely enticing for many of us without a deep agape love for us as people and as friends BEFORE any sex.

Equating rape with sex seems incorrect to me. Sorry to hear you feel that way.

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All in all, it's simply very liberating and the clarity is pure bliss...and I definitely appreciate this aspect of being a woman.

If you believe that a sexual organsim is not also pure bliss then again, I think your missing the boat of genetic chemistry all humans share.

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And only then also in partnership.

There exists partnership whenever two agree to do so. Let none put asunder what God has put together or some such saying like that. Fullers opens one of his most comprehensive book with that quote and address to his wife.


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On this one topic perhaps more than almost any other, women are light years apart from most men. But perhaps, if we can meet in the middle in authentic love, it does not have the remain that way for humanity in future.

I agree that men and women have differrences--- light years or a city block ----can be disscussed, but not very scientifically is my best guess.
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  #68  
Old 16-09-2017, 03:40 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
But for the 99%, it is nearly always the case that a context of love, acceptance, peaceful engagement and resolution, good diet and health, and good life skills generally can mediate almost any genetic tendency. Just day-to-day, continuing over the course of a lifetime.
Let's step back a second and look at the bigger picture. Genetic tendencies are built-in and determines most everything we are drawn to and involved in. The part that you mention is simply the surface layer of how we perform in relation to those built-in conditions. The drive toward sex, the foods that we eat, the need for shelter and personal protection, on almost every level of our human experience we directly confront the base-needs and demands of what it is to be physical within a physical setting. We can easily trace much of everything that occurs to us to one physical need or another. What you're referring to is the social manor in which these needs are projected. Nature sets the stage, while nurture becomes the means in which this nature is expressed.

Social interaction is a cultural pattern
while physical need and inclination are the drives behind how these cultural patterns are stimulated.

I suspect that perhaps 99% of what we're drawn to has a natural component and impetus.

Let's take the observations of women and sex and explore what science has found out on the subject. I read what you've detailed about women needing love in order to experience attraction. This is not always the case. The ovulation cycle tends to have a mind of it's own and for roughly 2 to 4 days out of the month a woman may find herself eagerly drawn to a sexual encounter, whether love is present or not. Studies that were done in the lab tracked the hormonal cycles of women via cotton swabs samples from the mouth in order to determine which stage in their cycle they were in for the month. They were then shown films and pictures of both neutral scenes and
scenes of love making, with special glasses being worn that tracked her eye movements in relation to each scene. In some studies the women were also fitted with a vaginal instrument that would determine blood flow and swelling indicating sexual arousal. In most cases, if a woman were in the fertile part of her cycle when a picture of a male making love to a female appeared on the screen her attention would center on the sexual organs in a most focused way... even if the subject insisted she was not aroused the vaginal monitor would often suggest otherwise. In these cases her body was responding without her having a conscious awareness of this attraction. Outside of the fertile part of her cycle many showed little interest in the sexual components of an image and focused more on the decor of the room instead, or some other component. :)

There were other studies done at bars that tracked women who were dressed scantly with those who weren't, using the same cotton swabbing that were used in the labs to track where in her cycle that she happened to be at the moment. A similar correlation was found there as well. The fertile part of her cycle had her drawing on sexual cues, while outside of this occurrence she tended to dress more conservatively.

So even with sexual urges we find biology prompting in such a way that supersedes and/or deeply influences how such urges are felt and expressed.

Look to any corner of our daily experience and at the base there is biology prompting our movements. Human bonding is natural because we evolved in small groups where bonding was necessary for survival and security. What we often call love is really a biological expression of such needs.

So let's flip this and say that perhaps 99% of our experience is a natural derivative, while the remaining 1% are random associations, where occasionally we'll be thinking a little outside of this naturally pre-programmed box.
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  #69  
Old 16-09-2017, 03:42 PM
Lorelyen
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Just spotted this topic as I came back from playing at a wedding this aft.

My genes made me do it? Nope, my jeans made me do it.

Fool, me, to wear jeans. Thank heavens I wore a really long knitted top. I'm not so tall so I have trouble reaching the organ pedal board. I had to take them off. Thankfully no one noticed as the console is behind a panel.

Just my jeanetics...
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  #70  
Old 16-09-2017, 03:55 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
I feel like I'm holding a matchstick against the flaming frigging forest fire of lies and misdirection that our culture has imposed upon so many of us... And which has completely misled and confused so many of us on these really core issues. These fundamental areas where folks really need some true understanding of where we're all coming from.
Which is why I love science. I enjoy studying with those who are actually taking the time to look as to how things are all stitched together. The soul is in there somewhere, but that's not what's holding our attention in a riveted way. The fire is being fed by unfounded impressions, we can often be lying and have little to no clue that we're doing so.
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