How do you navigate the path that leads to liberation?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

There is a lot of suffering that is not self generated. This planet and human life can be extremely harsh, overwhelmingly harsh. It can be a very dangerous and violent world. Plus our own body's and minds and brains can make us experience extreme suffering. But the eastern view of this is it is a result of karma. But it can be extreme suffering no matter what the cause. But we can still carry love and peace and hope, faith, until the suffering fades away as all things are transitory and impermanent. It's not really an escape from suffering, it is more about an acceptance and a lack of fight about things I have no control over. Surrender..... a lot of suffering is about not accepting things as they are, fighting the inevitable. And not holding deep in one's being love and peace under all that suffering.

I think the notion of cause in Buddhism is very specific to 'suffering has a cause', and the causal element is not the harsher extremes of experience, but the 'craving' which is the aversion toward and desire for experiences. It is self-generated in the sense that we generate our own craving, inciting the volition, which is the causal element of the kammic cycle.



The reactive tendency aversion/desire is based in the delusion that our experience is enduring, and that we ourselves are enduring experience, whereas it is momentary and without enduring quality.


The urge to escape suffering is the aversion toward suffering itself (or the aversion to aversion), which is the same as the desire for liberation. That is tricky because no one wants to suffer and everyone wants to be free of suffering, but the key is the truth itself - 'this is how it is' - as a pure, observable, undeniable fact. It can be called surrender, but specifically, surrender is to surrender the will or the volition, and when that cause is ended, kamma ceases to be generated.



However... for most of us our reactivity or craving is habitualised at internal depths of which we are still unaware, and is playing out unconsciously, so we don't know what drives us to do what we do because we don't really know what we are doing deep down. Some might undertake meditation as a way to be more aware and conscious of their deeper, subtler activities, though meditation basically means to be consciously aware of 'what's happening' in the moment.

A poem written during WW2, on the wall of a cellar, by a Jew in the Cologne concentration camp.

I believe in the sun
even when it is not shining
And I believe in love,
even when there’s no one there.
And I believe in God,
even when he is silent.



True a very real phenomena I've experienced (or been caught up in) often.



The river that is this body and it's mind, does not stop flowing until it does when it's time is up. One guru described it like being in a swiftly moving river... the body and it's mind, the strong current is down stream. But the divine is where the river starts, high in the mountains. It is there we must go. One can chose to head up stream but that does not stop the river. It is a moment to moment concentration or awareness, so one is facing the right way and moving in the right direction. It requires awareness, energy, and all it takes is one tiny moment of not paying attention, and the current takes us with it.

Yes. Well said.

It's interesting because I am aware of the conflict of it, yet somehow I'm not aware I am creating that because I am locked into certain ideas. But then when the source is seen, it's like an insight, an "ah ha" moment and the awareness of the (cause and effect - one thing) ends it. It's like having an itch on the leg and it bothering me awhile.... then I become aware of the root cause, an ant on my leg..... in one motion, awareness of the suffering and the cause, the finger flicks the ant away, the conflict or the source of suffering is gone. The solution was not to end the suffering somehow, though some practice or technique or series of classes, it was merely to be aware of the source of it.

I think the cause you refer to is a physical cause. Remove the causal ant and the consequential itch is resolved, and perhaps you say that analogously to illustrate the 'ah-ha' as you mentioned.

[sentient]

Thought these bits were rather good:
https://www.embodiedphilosophy.com/t...-of-intention/

Before there can be a result (karma), there is an action.

Before action, there is one’s will.

And before one’s will, there is one’s intention.

Before intention, there must be knowledge.

Still before knowledge, there must be learning.

And it is learning which helps us have the capacity for both right understanding and right thought.

*

[sky]

Originally Posted by sentient

Thought these bits were rather good:
https://www.embodiedphilosophy.com/t...-of-intention/


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Interesting article Sentient

I like...
' Meditation and questioning will not erase past mistakes, nor will they delete the ways we have been programmed to behave throughout our lives. But they can help us confront them, and further, be kind to our former selves '

I'm understanding this ' Being kind to our former selves ' is referring to ' Guilt ' that we sometimes feel.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by sky123

Interesting article Sentient

I like...
' Meditation and questioning will not erase past mistakes, nor will they delete the ways we have been programmed to behave throughout our lives. But they can help us confront them, and further, be kind to our former selves '


I'm understanding this ' Being kind to our former selves ' is referring to ' Guilt ' that we sometimes feel.

Oooh goody ...
I might like to change the wording there:

Meditation and questioning will not erase past mistakes, nor will they delete the ways we have been programmed to behave throughout our lives.

But through meditation - once we see - become transparent to our mistakes and programming - this gives rise to intent ... to confront & correct them, which in turn allows us to forgive ourselves …..

*

[sky]

Originally Posted by sentient

Oooh goody ...
I might like to change the wording there:


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By confronting and correcting we acknowledged something needs to change but does it always erase guilt hence being kind to ourselves comes into play....
Guilt causes untold misery to some and sometimes ends in suicide, the heavy burden can be to much to carry. Some find it easy others just cannot live with Guilt , obviously it depends on each individual...

[sky]

Realizing Guiltlessness
The Venerable Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche speaks with Pema Chödrön.
https://tricycle.org/magazine/realizing-guiltlessness/



Ven. Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche: The most important thing that I see Western students needing to realize is guiltlessness.

PC: Guiltlessness?

VDKR: Yes, guiltlessness. They need to realize that the person or the mind is, by its very nature, innocent.

PC: Could you explain what you mean by “innocent”?

VDKR: I mean that from the Buddhist point of view we can understand that all the things we do to harm ourselves and others come from deep-rooted confusions and ignorance but that the mind is by its very nature pure and enlightened. When we feel a tremendous amount of guilt, we forget this view.

PC: I think sometimes Western students have trouble believing this view.

VDKR: The fact that all sentient beings long for happiness and freedom proves that the nature of their mind is pure and innocent.



Some might find this article useful...

[sentient]

Originally Posted by sky123

By confronting and correcting we acknowledged something needs to change but does it always erase guilt hence being kind to ourselves comes into play....
Guilt causes untold misery to some and sometimes ends in suicide, the heavy burden can be to much to carry. Some find it easy others just cannot live with Guilt , obviously it depends on each individual...

I don’t know …
Monumental Guilt to me speaks of Monumental Self Importance also.

A kind of a frozen in time by fear state with inability to move on, to dare to intend, open up and then let go, & have courage to face the music.

Like running on the same spot, going nowhere - repeating the same thing day in day out for weeks, months, years on end ….

But yes, starting by acknowledging the suffering of the guilt and having compassion for ourselves ….. being kind to ourselves …….

*

P.S.
I had a sort of a friend – who was gay, coming from a very morally strict Christian family – who committed a suicide because of the guilt about his sexuality.

*

[sky]

Originally Posted by sentient

I don’t know …
Monumental Guilt to me speaks of Monumental Self Importance also.

A kind of a frozen in time by fear state with inability to move on, to dare to intend, open up and then let go, & have courage to face the music.

Like running on the same spot, going nowhere - repeating the same thing day in day out for weeks, months, years on end ….

But yes, starting by acknowledging the suffering of the guilt and having compassion for ourselves ….. being kind to ourselves …….

*

P.S.
I had a sort of a friend – who was gay, coming from a very morally strict Christian family – who committed a suicide because of the guilt about his sexuality.

*

' P.S.
I had a sort of a friend – who was gay, coming from a very morally strict Christian family – who committed a suicide because of the guilt about his sexuality.'


Sadly we hear of this over and over again and something needs to be done about it to help these tortured people. I presume His Family/Church are now feeling guilt and the circle goes round, never ending. So so sad....

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Good one Gem. I agree with everything you say here. There is just one thing that kinda grabbed me.


I was watching a documentary the other night about a Japanese geezer who skied down Everest, don't know if you've seen it but i'll post the link for all. The cinematography is wowwwsaa etc. and the story line too. Anyway they run into Sir Edmund Hilary during their trek to Everest base camp. In the convo that ensues you'll hear Sir Ed saying ...Humans need Challenges... I don't know where the human race will be ..or would be without challenges..something like that... Really Struck me and knew what he meant and knew it was different than the striving i would probably in the past have associated with what he was saying ?? ..Example at the moment for me is I'm learning a bit of welding to fix some gates for my father, ( i said to my father these are the pearly gates ..he did smile lol) Anyways that type of thing ..like a new challenge for me ? It doesn't feel driven although that too could creep in ? Is that what you mean ..that at any time we can become unhealthily and unnecessarily driven ? Thanks for the great post.

The Man Who Skied Down Everest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViFmRQx66Xg&t=3950s

I thought it was a fantastic piece of filming and tragic and controversial too that 6 sherpas lose their lives in the process.

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I watched a bit of it, and was thinking you probably have to be Japanese to do something like that . I agree it is a different kind of striving. Very hard to do, but I imagine careening down an ice face demands a high degree of attention. I suppose we are all challenged by life, as we 'rise to the occasion', as it were, and constantly adapt with the inevitable changes of our environments, social situations, life stages etc. I think the trick is understand, it's always changing, and you can't make it other than it is, so you just know 'this is what's like'. Still, it's not as if you can't have the life you want to have, even though you have no power to make it other than it is right now. This implies that the ways in which we react to circumstances and become distracted from what is have deleterious effects on outcomes compared to when we remain alert to, and unperturbed by, the lived experience as it is.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Some people say they accept things going on outside of themselves, meaning they ‘tell themselves’ they do and have, yet within I’ve noticed they haven’t truly accepted what contains deeper the truth of this as ‘themselves containing themselves’ as that acceptance.

I think there is always a bit of that as we know the difference between serenity of mind happy with things as they are and a reactive mind that's adverse to 'this' and desires 'something else', but still, we don't have the inherent stability of mind to be always completely accepting. Most of us (probably all of us) have tendencies toward restlessness and agitation ingrained life issues having been wounded and convinced of our unworthiness by the evidence of the past, so I'm trying not to speak of the ideal of being a perfect person, but the OKness of being who you are now, and even if you do judge the worthiness of that, just know that that is what you do.

In my own personal experience of this, this is truly where and how I have navigated the path to liberation. Total acceptance of everything in me in everything I hold up against the world around me.

So if we wish to break it all down, it pretty much means regardless of ‘right’ ‘wrong, unjustly, just, good, bad, every reaction I have, every thought I hold up against the external harbouring internal reaction in some form, or hold against ‘standards’ ‘ideals’ ‘ideas’ .. if I’m not listening from within, taking my bull by the horns and attending to my own charge, to move me forward peacefully, then I lose sight of the ‘abundance’ within myself and each moment, that gears me towards a path that supports me, rather than contain me. That path may not look like the ‘ideal’ or as I ‘thought’ it would be, but in releasing myself, of all containment, it’s the path that best supports me.

In ways my mind could never imagined.

There is work ethic, their is a standards you live by, but as liberation, it’s all nothing in me, it’s true emptiness as the lived experience..moving and being as this. The appearance on the surface can only be known by you deeper as you.

The doing might then look the same, but it’s not...

You become a ‘doer’ who is liberated and because ‘it’s felt’ it’s ‘effective’ as itself just being and doing.

Once upon a time, I was chasing life, as a seeker chasing myself, now life greets me and I meet it as ‘I am’

Choices are greater when you stop the choosing in you..