How would you feel?

[astralsuzy]

Hi asearcher, I do not want to talk to my brother about it because I think it would do more harm than good. My cousin from America, family members and their friends are invited to my brothers birthday. It is disappointing and I do not feel like contacting them. I doubt if I ever will now. I will try not to make it obvious. I will buy my brother a birthday present. I let my sister in law know that my husband, son and myself will not be going to the restaurant which is a week after my brothers birthday. I let her know in an email. That way I do not have to talk to her on the phone about it. I told the truth and that is I have chronic headaches. I could not go as I would have to keep walking around. Sitting and lying down hurts my head a lot. I should get rid of my headaches in about six weeks time or greatly reduced with the new medication I am on.

Her daughter invited us to the beach in the morning then to her home for Christmas seafood dinner. I thought it was lovely of her thinking of us but we will not go. I am not sure what I will say but I will figure it out when it gets closer. We feel we are not welcome and we do not belong there. I am sure they would make us feel welcome but that is the way we feel. I do not want to feel bad going. I am sure they will be nice to us but other things has happened and enough is enough. We are tied of it. We will have a lovely Christmas lunch at home.

Hi astralsuzy, I understand. I am sorry for your chronic headache and hope the medication will work out right for you.

I can recognize how your thoughts are going. When I could not take it no more with my extremely narcissistic parent-in-law I withdrew, only I withdrew from everyone. This because it was too much for me, I could not deal with it no more. I was fed up. There was never gonna be a change, for real. I would get anxiety if I knew I was to go to a social event with the narcissist present for weeks or days before. I was not looking forward to it one bit, despite me knowing all the other people would be there as well. It was always so that after such incident/s me and my husband would end up in a quarrel or fight, and we both knew it. That contributed or was the large part why I got anxiety.

I think it is right you withdraw when you feel it is too much for you, but please, and I'm gonna use my husband's quote on this that he had said to me before "Don't throw them all overboard".

When and if you feel you can handle it and are not feeling pressured into it I would like to suggest that you could then have, develop, your own routines, strengthen the bonds with the rest of the family, relatives, but doing so without the sister-in-law present. This is how we had to work around it, once we were reconciled, for instance seeing one other family at a time or two or more of them at at time, but with the knowing his parents were not invited, and too having other type of contacts with them when not seeing them of course. When before I felt I was up to it I would come along even when knowing the narcissist was present. Despite me then being nothing but polite, distant, avoiding the narcissist, it would not help. The narcissist's sensitive radar still went after me but now had to do so with my husband present, by my side, and other people too and this narcissist then came off looking like the bad guy.

If you withdraw completely it is as if you have let the sister-in-law win, win all these other people who are good to you, who want you and your family in their lives. They could feel hurt and rejected by you and your family, they are not the sister-in-law, this is what I had to tell myself when it came to my own narcissist.

Truth of the matter is that a person only get to sit on the throne if the others see it as a throne. If they just see it as another chair, that is all it is. The person sitting on the chair (it's own imagined throne) can pretend for everything it is worth, does not mean that the rest of the people in the room view it with this person's eyes. They can still be in the room, though. They can still interact with each other. They can put up with the throne-loving-person, but that is not the same as them actually thinking the person is sitting on a throne. They only humor, wanting a smooth ride and do not care. Then there are those who buy into it, which is down to a vulnerability within them and it makes them vulnerable further ahead as long as they have it.

If one gets to be this way, it was, in my case, about a vulnerability I had and the narcissist going at it, again and again. The vulnerability I had is was my fear that the narcissist was powerful enough to turn my husband against me, and at the time, these years of it, I loved my husband very much.

My husband was an introvert, silent, used to only dealing with the narcissist by being this gray-stone-of-a-tactic defense, that was his norm, and he was blind to it. He was vulnerable. And because he was vulnerable even when thinking he wasn't, he was no shield for me to stand behind.

Even when I then had enough and wanted and did leave my husband, there for my vulnerability went out the window, hurraa, my husband or estranged husband proved to me he was not going to buy into his parent's tactics, that this parent would never be able to turn him around, against me. He stood up. He was done playing too. Along the way, before it all culminated, he had reacted on some things he thought his parent acted out on me for no good reason, but he was still partly in denial of his own vulnerability. It wasn't enough. He would always so though that if we were going down, he couldn't do it as he still loved me too much and wanted this to work. He would read up about narcissism, and high sensitivity (me being that) and work on himself. I did not see a real change til after the autism diagnose, then it was finally as if everything fell in to place.

Some of these manipulative ways of his parent has passed him by as he is on the autism spectrum. I can honestly tell that the other parent have been missing these vital signs as well. It is down to their autism, not because they stand by the narcissist's side. They don't see it, their autism make them more vulnerable to it. I have in secret thought how on earth it could be that my other parent-in-law stands for this, year in and year out, to then understand after a rising conflict with someone else in the family, that this parent can not read it off properly, this even if being intelligent. And so the show continue. It's the same picture. Feel like I've watched it now over a 100 times.

Some people, through experiences and/or a sensitive radar for it, will discover manipulative ways of someone before others, but it don't mean the other ones are the bad guys, they are however also vulnerable as long as this continue, if they don't change that about themselves. And in order to change it they have to first of all become aware of it.

You could ask yourself if you have a vulnerability that this sister-in-law is using, because she is using something, there is this trigger. It may not be obvious to you now, and may take it's time to unravel what exactly it is, but once you have found out what it is she will know you are not to be played with no more and it will strengthen you and the others as well. You turning down the restaurant invitation is a sign you are no longer under her command, and I for one think that is good :) You don't play this by her rules. But please do not let her have all the other people, and not you and your family, sounds to me like she don't deserve having that the way she has behaved.

With my own experiences, in my own culture, I have seen that most planning etc of an event is done by the woman in the family, that could be why your brother simply go along with it without questioning it. I think his boundaries are screwed up with of course, and part of that I think has to do with manipulation and someone constantly being pushed under the water and not having enough strength to get up, as this person is taking so much energy otherwise as well, and him not actually understanding the social norms, having a hick-up about it, buying what ever the reason/s that have been presented.

On his part it could be about shame too. Shame he is not the man he wants to be. Shame is a very strong feeling. Gets you to be in denial or entirely wipe out the memory of it. My husband was fighting it, my image of him, how he came across to me, til he one day didn't and said he felt very much ashamed of not having been man enough to stand up and do a well enough of a job to protect me from this. Had he not had a vulnerability - none of this would have happened to me. Had your brother not had a vulnerability, and his shame-mechanism I gather, this would not have happened to you.

Your brother and my husband were/are placed in the middle and loyalties are torn, tearing them apart, both directions. They can never win. It is more easy for me, and you, and it is more easy for "my" narcissist, and your sister-in-law, and one has to bear that in mind, it's the most difficult on those in the middle when they have a vulnerability.

I think what her daughter did is a wonderful signal to you and your family and a sign you are welcome, you are part of the family, she's reaching out :)

[astralsuzy]

Thank you asearcher but my family cannot go through with it. We really do not want to go to their Christmas. I will keep in contact with my brothers. I will not invite my brother and sister in law to my home. They invite everyone to their home and not us. I will from time to time contact my other brother to see how he is. My brother not inviting us to his 70th birthday is the last straw when my cousins and other people are invited. It was mean. He has done other things. He lied about saying he tried to contact me when my mother had covid. He tried to make himself sound better by making up excuses. If he apologised I would have forgiven him and I would have forgotten it. My brother has done nice things. My husband and son are adamant that they do not want to go to their Christmas. As I said, we feel we do not belong there. My husband is a very caring person and he said it was mean that my brother did not ask us to his birthday. He did not want to let me know what he thought but I asked him again today and he told me. I rarely see my nieces. They do not go to the family events unless it is at their parents home. We do not go to their home as we are not asked to go there. If my daughter and partner invited them to an event we would go. I would be polite and kind to them.

You're welcome.

Then of course you and your family should celebrate it without, I can understand the tensions are high, having culminated now after time and it is not exactly ideal to then spend what should be the coziest day of the year in such circumstances.

However with that said, even if you may not need or want my advice on this, is to please isolate the damage as much as you can, that is it is not your brother's daughter that has any blame in this.

Too also to be clear on how your rules are, usually it is a give and take and open communication is always the best way that nobody dictates over another family or the other way around. I know for instance one time when my parent in laws had decided something without communicating this at all with any of its grown children and their partners and we found out through pure accident that apparently they had a rule about this, it ain't no guessing game and we aren't mind readers + like I mentioned just before, always 2 to tango, always 2 families or more, that should have that open communication or else something important may get lost in the silent translation of things. It is when you assume that things can get wrong very fast. In that scenario the parent in laws assumed one family would first of all understand this silent non communicative rule, that it was only up to them, the parents, second they assumed the other family would think so and so, but they did not.

Just saying these rules you have now decided with your closest family ought to be then communicated in the right manner to the people, other family members, relatives that are completely innocent and has nothing to do with what is going on with your sister-in-law and brother.

The way you describe your brother tells me there is both good and bad here, and I still think if you would just talk to him, one and one, you will then get this poison out of your system and you two can then decide how to move on forward. If it was my brother I would tell him Look I am hurt and angry that we were not invited over like everyone else, why did you do that? But then again that is how it goes in my family, we are straight forward, we fight, but we're also close, there is no reading between the lines. My family would be able to tell if I had it all stuffed in as well, ready to explode, it's no good.

When I have been able to say yes to an invitation of lets say one of my husband's sibling and it's family, knowingly the narcissist is too a guest, I have tried to think of it as us both being guests, and if the narcissist-guest is not behaving then it is the one who is living in the home, the inviter, who gets to tell this guest off, and/or to leave.

I can imagine in the scenario had you went to your brother's daughter's Christmas over at her home, it would then be her home, and then her mother should not be the one running things, but her daughter, she should merely then be a guest, and as a guest one has one rule to follow and it should be simple and it is to behave like a guest. This has, BTW, also happened, that the ones living in the home, the inviters, had to step in and so on, with the narcissist behaving badly, it's crazy. I have experienced everyone else so much more relaxed and themselves without the narcissist present.

I have grown up with so many people, relative and other people at events etc and I have never ever encounter this issue with anyone til I met the narcissist.

However I did stuff it in when I knew my husband was used as a pawn which hurt me greatly in the past and I then did the same to him, to them, as what had been done to me - and that was fair game. i was hurt over that my husband and the other parent enabling more than I cared about the damage the narcissist tried to do to me. In one way it worked to my advantage given I wanted nothing to do with the narcissist I now could exclude it and them as well, keeping myself and any child with me safe from all that, and my relations with my family and friends got stronger as I had no bother rejecting my husband's side and doing my own thing, I felt a feeling of freedom and I got stronger. I needed the right set of people around me to help give my value as I was back then pretty pushed down from everything. Before I kept everything to myself as my way of thinking i was loyal to my husband and me trying to protect him, but then I realized he was not loyal to me, so who was he to receive it from me, and so when I got strong enough I actually opened my mouth and spoke my feelings, and people liking me for me, sided with me. First time I did it my husband exploded but later apologized, it was out of shame, him saying we should keep it within the family. I clearly said What family? Yours or mine? And you and nobody gets to tell me to shut up about anything. I will speak up weather you like it or not. You have shown me where your loyalties are at and they ain't with me. It is you that brought in and changed all the rules we before had set and thought this was fair. All he before had said to me again and again was that I was sensitive, I know I asked him is that all you got for a defense, that I am sensitive? As long as I am not hallucinative or crazy then I am still speaking the truth. I also got great help, advice on this forum that helped me believe more in myself.

How ever things turn out I hope you will feel free from any heavy feelings regarding this, as well as your family of course :)

[astralsuzy]

Originally Posted by asearcher

please isolate the damage as much as you can, that is it is not your brother's daughter that has any blame in this.

I agree. I will not be mean. I will always be friendly and kind towards them. It is not my nieces fault. I think a lot of her particularly for asking us over to her home for Christmas.

That is good advice and that is to ask my brother why is everyone invited and not us particularly as my cousin is coming over from another country. I think it would backfire. His wife would be extremely mad as she is always right and I am not to question things. My brother would likely make excuses as to why he did not invite us to his party. He would likely try to make himself sound good just like when he did not let me know my mother had covid. I will not allow myself to be down about this anymore. Perhaps it is for the best. Who needs toxic people in your life. I can guess why my brother did not want to invite us and that is because we are different to them. He wants me to play sport and do other things and I do not want to. He plays sport all day. I think differently to him and he does not like it. My brother is racist but I do not think he is unhappy that I do not agree with him. There are other things such as, he wanted to know our finances. I would not tell him as it is private and it is no ones business. I was nice to my brother about it but he kept asking me and he would not leave it alone. He said to me later on that he was mad with my husband. My husband did not want to let my brother know about our finances.

[astralsuzy]

I just got an email from my sister in law saying my cousin is not going to my brothers birthday. She will be there at the club for lunch the week after my brothers birthday. I asked my sister in law when is my cousin coming here in Sydney and she told me.

[astralsuzy]

I realise it will look bad if I do not go to my nieces Christmas celebration. My cousin will be there. I said to my husband I think we should go. My husband said to me I am in no state to go anywhere with my head pain. I have to wait and see how things go. If my head pain goes then I can go.

Hi Astralsuzy, (edited this 2 version, sorry about that, don't want there to be any misunderstandings)

what I can tell is that this is a pattern where there are these innuendo tactics going on from the brother and the sister-in-law. I recognize such things from the narcissist. It is never the will to get to the bottom, of both sides being heard out on equal ground.

The innuendos would make it difficult to relax around and there is no trust then, or so I have experienced it to be, it is as if one never knows when one is gonna get "pinched".

There is obviously a problem with boundaries from your brother asking and on top of that thinking he is entitled to become upset about your and your husband not feeling like talking to him about your financial situation. Crazy, if you ask me. I never ask anyone of their financial situation, I think that is common sense, I thought everyone knew that. (If people by themselves want to share that, fine, but it is not something to tell someone else off then, I think). Wonder why he asked. Such things make me suspicious.

I know I before in another thread made heads up to you to be on the look out of your mom's health situation and finance situation, as some people are like this, I know from experience, and I can imagine some people would want a dominant hold on your mother like nobody else in the family has.

I would not be comfortable with the brother or the sister-in-law being the gateway in/the access/having both a duty and more power/more privilege to be the first people they contact etc. It is difficult for me to say of course if you were deliberately excluded from knowing or if it was done by a mistake and/or if your brother lied to you because he was scared. This is why too it has been difficult for me to share some of the stuff the narcissist has done to me as other people can judge it as not so bad, a mistake, when I know it was not but I can't prove it then and there (but could later). I am afraid that the situation with your mother is one of the vulnerabilities the sister-in-law and your brother has on you.

I would make sure I had my own separate relationship with my mother and the staff.

I would not trust my brother or nobody else to for instance get the information of your mom's conditions, sickness, I would get involved in a way that I would never again, risk having that happen.I would see it as my responsibility as a daughter to make it my business, and nobody else's. Not again put the trust on the brother or the sister-in-law, having them back in that power. I have seen too much of the dark side in people regarding old family members, and relatives, so this why I am most cautious about it and feel I have to warn you.

The way I see it you own it to your mother and you own it to yourself to step up and reclaim your place, your power. Nobody is going to give it to you, you have to take it, this is your right and this is your duty. Do not place that on your brother who you do not trust or anyone else.

I think the incident happened for a reason and the reason is for you to step up, stand up. Do not victimize yourself, which I too have done in the past as one feels powerless. You are placing yourself in a situation inferior to theirs and then point the blaming finger on them. That is not to say you are not right to be sad, hurt about it. But now move who ever is in your seat, sit down and take over the steering wheel or this will continue. I hope I am making sense. These people will most likely not change because of this or that, or what ever you say, they are too weak in a way even if appearing strong in another. It's all attitude, once one see through that that tactic seize to work.

I would still confront my brother about it and not give a dam, sorry, what ever the sister-in-law thought of it. Does she ever care how you feel about being excluded? Nope, is my guess or that she take pleasure from it. You are giving her too much power. I am guessing like you are how I was before, afraid. You don't want drama. You don't want other people involved. They don't have to be involved. You speak your mind. That's it. I made sure if and when I have I am assertive, I do not curse, I do not call names, my message is clear. I have realized when I speak this way other people respect me, and the "bad ones" don't get anywhere. The vulnerability has seized to exist.

Their reactions are their issues. You don't want them near either, do you? And if you do not, then you would not want to be over at his home, do you? You really have to think about which way do you want to go? This because I recognize this as well, you have 2 energies swirling around in you is my guess, where you wish how it would have been (the normal way) and then you have the harsh reality. Having these two energies take so much energy out of you, did on me at least. You will feel better once your final decision is reached.

Some times we end up with family members that are not suited for the character of which they are to play, that is just how it is. So then I take away the privilege of that and I don't view them as that. They are who they are. I treat people of how they are, not what role they have been born into. How many kings in the past were born into their political position etc when they were clearly not fit to be in such a position? Quite many, if you ask me. The same with family and relatives. If they are not suited they are not suited. Wrongly cast.

When people give you an inferior position, or try to, and you are thinking why they are treating you this way, you instead have to pump up yourself. I had to tell myself as I could so clearly see I was being treated like a little girl, and my husband a little boy, that we were adults. That I was a caretaker, or a mother. That I was a wife. These were my titles that was being ripped off me or trying to be ripped of me. You have to pump yourself up. You are The Daughter, you are The Sister and you are not to be messed with. That is not to say you have in any way disrespected either of them, or placing them inferior to you, but dam it they should then not try to do you inferior to them. If and when you meet you meet as equals, if you show you are sure in yourself, your roles, your truth - then that is power. Think of it this way: It is like dealing with a bully. A bully tries various ways to weaken you so a bully can be superior.

To live a life without fear, to say I don't care about the consequences they try to scare me with, or that I myself am scaring myself with, but I am being honest is a tool of power. You will feel stronger. You have your own fear in this coiffure of yourself and you need to open it and let it out.

I have never been able to work anything out with the narcissist and to be frank neither has anyone else. Everyone (my husband and other family members) says it is like being lost in some sort of labyrint, you get absolutely nowhere, it is no point.

What I believe is that you can stand strong and tall being yourself, telling the truth and then your truth is no longer a vulnerability. But you have to have the guts to do it. At times we have this fear: What if. So what what if? Why is it allowed for the brother and the sister in law to behave like that and you are not allowed to speak the truth? You have to make the What if? not part of your dictionary. Your worst fears of the What if? is still not your responsibility. How other people react on your speaking the truth is their responsibility.

Believe me, I have been on a long journey before I got to this point myself. I was always thinking of others. Always trying to be the adult, be reflective - and these guys - they count on that. They count on you being like that. And as long as you are like that - they are having a ball. They get away with everything because you are the bigger person. But when you speak the truth you say I see you and I see exactly what you are doing and I don't like it. You bring light on them. They do not want you to be as strong and confrontational about it, they want you hurt and small and for you to go back to your corner. You say you see it and I'm not afraid of you. They are then also afraid of the judgment of others. the wa I talk when I talk like this is me being assertive and me owning my truth, it is not something that is up for discussion. They can say they don't agree, just as I can, but the thing is I don't ask from an inferior level, I speak up front. Everyone else is allowed to speak their mind. So are you. If it helps you can pretend you are speaking to yourself, preparing a speech. You don't even need them to get it what you are saying, and they don't have to agree, that is not the point. Don't give them that power.

When you show you have nothing to fear a bully steps back into the dark again. All they have are boundaries-crossing tactics etc but they can not meet you eye to eye, equal, they are too freaken scared of you and what you are up to. Your truth will scare them. And they will retreat.

I think it is real good you take your brother's daughter's actions into your heart whether you are going to be there or not is then not what is important, but the good you still have with her, your relationship with her, and to preserve it just so.

I am sorry too if I came on too strong, I wish to shake you up a little, as I can tell you are still thinking of how ever the sister in law will react, and that gives her power over you, that is how I see it. Been there myself for a long, long time… too long.

Hi AstralSuzy, changed the above as I thought I did not explain it well on some points, hope nothing I wrote offended you before. When I reread it later on I thought Jesus, I have got to write it better than that.

I have found a you tube video explaining what it does to the brain when we feel we are being excluded, please watch if you like.

That is after all the red thread here, I'm thinking. You felt at first excluded from learning of your mother's Covid and then on to the exclusion of not being invited with the other sibling/s etc to the home of your brother.

The Psychological Effects of Feeling Excluded by Social Psychology: Be a People Expert

If I find something else interesting I will add it, in hope that it can help you and raise awareness on the topic :)

[astralsuzy]

Thank you asearcher, my brother wanted to know my finances because he used to be a financial adviser. He wanted to help us. My brother is a terrible financial adviser. He has made very bad decisions and if we followed his advice we would be a lot worse off. He has lost a lot of money trying to help his nieces buying their home. My nieces and their partners lost a lot money not my brother. He has made other bad financial mistakes. He refuses to read important information even when I have told my brother it is important to do it. He says everyone else says it is good. My husband looks into things slowly and carefully and makes the right decision. My husband has more qualifications in finance than my brother. I have not told my brother that. I think it would cause problems. It would not be good letting my brother and sister in law know our finances. It can cause a lot of problems. I believe to keep it quiet from family and friends.

My sister in law likes power. She likes to have control over everyone and if you do not do what she wants she will get angry. I think she is being nice to me at the moment is because she knows it is not good for my daughter and partner. She wants a relationship with them.

As I said before I will be polite and friendly. I do what I can to keep my distance from them.